Cat Stevens on Terrorist Watchlist - Plane Diverted

Dorian Gray said:
Okay, we're all getting bogged down by the fact that a peace activist like Cat Stevens was on the list and ignoring the elephant in the room:

A person on the FBI/CIA watch list was able to get on a plane to Washington DC instead of being denied passage on that plane.

Can we begin the Bush bashing now? Under his watch, a person considered to be a threat to the US was allowed to board a plane - A PLANE, of all things - and this glaring error was only caught after the plane was halfway to DC.

What security? Are we more secure? Really? I mean, they stopped Kennedy from getting on a plane beforehand....
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All kidding aside, this has got to be one of the most naive posts I've ever seen on this list. I realize that not everyone has the education to grasp some of the more arcane facets of the science of risk management, but this is beyond stupidity...he was caught so that proves the system failed?
:rolleyes:
 
Dorian Gray said:
No, Bush sucks independently of screening systems. However, Bush is running around the country pointing to his tough and successful stance on combatting terror, so it does look bad.
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So barely three years after September 11, we don't have a perfect, foolproof, leakproof defense against terrorists; therefore Bush should shut up.
Wow. Partisan drunk and fat jokes in lieu of a reason.
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Yeah. Annoying, isn't it?
 
Dorian Gray said:
No, Bush sucks independently of screening systems. However, Bush is running around the country pointing to his tough and successful stance on combatting terror, so it does look bad.

Wow. Partisan drunk and fat jokes in lieu of a reason. You wouldn't be a Republican, would you?
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Partisan?? I'm sure Ted Kennedy was just an example politician. If Tip O'neill were still on the stage it could've just as easily been him.
 
crimresearch said:
All kidding aside, this has got to be one of the most naive posts I've ever seen on this list. I realize that not everyone has the education to grasp some of the more arcane facets of the science of risk management, but this is beyond stupidity...he was caught so that proves the system failed?
:rolleyes:
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The system failed to give warning before the plane left the ground at all.
 
'The table hit my leg!!!'

'That knife cut me!'

'They caught someone breaking in....Security failed!'

'A drunk driver ran off the road at 100 mph, and hit a tree and died...the car safety features failed!'


I realize that those whose only understanding of security comes from TV and perhaps the occasional trip to the mall don't grasp the complexities of the science of risk management, but security isn't a cohesive, sentient 'thing' as Claus believes..it hasn't 'failed' merely because superstitious woos like Claus jump to wild conclusions and proclaim failure based on their own ignorance.
 
CFLarsen said:
The system failed to give warning before the plane left the ground at all.
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That part is obvious CF. But Dorian was laying the problem on the FBI/CIA.

It could be that the British screener recognized Cat/Yusef and figured it wasn't the Yusef they were looking for. I don't know if that "informed" decision would be better than knowing outright incompetence let him on the plane, but the US authorities did realize they had a problem before the plane was in our jurisdiction.

The system is international. Laying it on one country ain't right.
 
crimresearch said:
because superstitious woos like Claus jump to wild conclusions and proclaim failure based on their own ignorance.
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Who is this "Claus" you are talking about? It can't be me, because I am not a superstitious woo.
 
Atlas onserved
"...but the US authorities did realize they had a problem before the plane was in our jurisdiction."

Correct...
In which case the 'system' performed as designed...the threat was detected and neutralized at a certain point in the procees.

It is only an *assumption* that this particular person was going to actually blow up the plane he was flying on and should have been stopped before boarding...and as the real world and facts show, it was an incorrect assumption.


Now as to the specific reason why that person was perceived as a threat *after* flying, those who wish to do so are free to speculate.
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Quote CFLarsen
Who is this "Claus" you are talking about? It can't be me, because I am not a superstitious woo

You do an excellent job of playing one here at JREF, so I need to make the distinction on the off chance that a logical and rational Claus may come along and need to be distinguished from your superstitious verbage.
 
Atlas said:
That part is obvious CF. But Dorian was laying the problem on the FBI/CIA.

It could be that the British screener recognized Cat/Yusef and figured it wasn't the Yusef they were looking for. I don't know if that "informed" decision would be better than knowing outright incompetence let him on the plane, but the US authorities did realize they had a problem before the plane was in our jurisdiction.

The system is international. Laying it on one country ain't right.
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But wasn't it the Yusef they were looking for? He hasn't been allowed back into the US.
 
USA Today has a much more uncomfortable report today.

It doesn't say how many airports were tested but it does say...
Undercover investigators were able to sneak explosives and weapons past security screeners at 15 airports nationwide, according to a government report on aviation security.
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The good side is that our guys are testing the system for vulnerabilities that are hopefully improved.
 
"...The good side is that our guys are testing the system for vulnerabilities that are hopefully improved."

Again, correct.

A process or system that hasn't been tested *beyond* failure is an unknown quantity.
 
CFLarsen said:
But wasn't it the Yusef they were looking for? He hasn't been allowed back into the US.
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In this case it was. One hopes, in the case of Ted Kennedy, the senator is not on a watch list. If a person believes Cat/Yusef is a Peace activist they might have thought this was a Ted Kennedy type error. And on their own authority, based on personal recognition, decided not to cause a stupid international incident. After all, who is afraid of Cat Stevens, Mr. Peace Train.

I wish I knew more about the screening system. Does a computer check the names. When it is talked about on TV it sounds as if the ticket taker, generally a local citizen, makes the first test against a list, then signals authorities if there is a match.

I would have thought Passport control would be a second line of defense. I haven't traveled internationally since well before 9/11. At that time, for leaving a country, the ticket taker merely confirmed that you had a passport, and it was upon entering the new country that you faced the inquisition.
 
While I think putting him on a watch list would be ridiculous if all he ever did is what's been posted here, you have to admit you may not know all the reasons he's on it. You don't know if the FBI has reason to believe he's laundering money or something, and you know they aren't about to tell you.
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Why turn away CS - a high profile, well known, easy to track person? It would be easy to follow CS around to see if he contacts bad people. If the FBI were serious about finding terrorists in the US, this was really dumb. This action looks more like a federal agency publicity move than any kind of serious effort to root out terrorist supporters.

NOTE: I am not blaming Bush for this one.
 
Atlas said:
In this case it was. One hopes, in the case of Ted Kennedy, the senator is not on a watch list. If a person believes Cat/Yusef is a Peace activist they might have thought this was a Ted Kennedy type error. And on their own authority, based on personal recognition, decided not to cause a stupid international incident. After all, who is afraid of Cat Stevens, Mr. Peace Train.
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But the point is, they did cause a stupid international incident. The security check in the UK thought "Hey, this can't be this guy" and sent him on the plane. However, it was that guy.

Atlas said:
I wish I knew more about the screening system. Does a computer check the names. When it is talked about on TV it sounds as if the ticket taker, generally a local citizen, makes the first test against a list, then signals authorities if there is a match.

I would have thought Passport control would be a second line of defense. I haven't traveled internationally since well before 9/11. At that time, for leaving a country, the ticket taker merely confirmed that you had a passport, and it was upon entering the new country that you faced the inquisition.
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Exactly. He must have bought his ticket some days ago, and no system flagged anywhere? It isn't as if this should come as a surprise to the people at the gate, should it?
 
fishbob said:
... It would be easy to follow CS around to see if he contacts bad people. If the FBI were serious about finding terrorists in the US, this was really dumb. ..
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Yeah, that's exactly the way the *real* experts on TV would do it...following people is so easy and fool proof, with no possible negative consequences...
Or maybe they should have knocked him out with that CIA gas and switched him with a perfect double?
;)
 
crimresearch said:
You do an excellent job of playing one here at JREF, so I need to make the distinction on the off chance that a logical and rational Claus may come along and need to be distinguished from your superstitious verbage.
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Perhaps you could open a new thread and give examples of my superstitious beliefs? I, for one, would be most happy to know.
 
Sigh.

So, if Cat Stevens gets on a plane and lands in the US, it is evidence that the security system failed. Of course, if he was denied permission to board the plane in the first place, it is evidence of the racist and paranoid "war on terror" leading to silly things like thinking Stevens should not be admitted.

You just can't win with some people.
 
Cat Stevens: destroy brain & wipe out logic with drugs for many years & find allah. retards. fk em.
 
Skeptic said:
Sigh.

So, if Cat Stevens gets on a plane and lands in the US, it is evidence that the security system failed. Of course, if he was denied permission to board the plane in the first place, it is evidence of the racist and paranoid "war on terror" leading to silly things like thinking Stevens should not be admitted.

You just can't win with some people.
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Ummmm....... how about not banning people just because of their religion? maybe then you might "win with some people"?
 
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