Cat Stevens on Terrorist Watchlist - Plane Diverted

CFLarsen said:
Continuing to ignore the question?

Ah, well....
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So, Claus 'has said all he is going to say' about his own assertions, and then uses the Big Lie in the face of the examples I posted, while denying being a Sylvia Browne emulator?

Asked and answered Claus, Not interested Claus, Buh-bye Claus, Come back when you have some facts Claus...(you can start with the Styria thread that you ran out on when the 'tough' questions backed you into a corner).

(Make that 'Asked and answered repeatedly Claus')
 
evildave said:
Trivia: The 'Whole Nine Yards' came from the length of ammunition belts for a BMG in various aircraft, which was 27 feet long, so giving someone the 'Whole Nine Yards' meant you emptied the machine gun into them.
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Wow. Football really was a lot more violent in the old days, huh?
 
Atlas said:
Europe balked at the idea and so the US said at the very least you gotta tell us who is on the incoming planes. Europe still balked but relented after several British flights were grounded on mere suspicion that terrorists had plans to use them. There are allusions to the demanded flight lists in several articles googled with the phrase: US demands international flight lists -- but none gave the 2 hour time limit I mentioned earlier. So that might be bogus.
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Thanks for the info.

It would be nice to have an expert on international and maritime law here. It is my lay understanding that there is, traditionally, no burden on a foreign point of embarcation to put restrictions on passengers based on where they are going. With airlines, it is traditionally at the midpoint of the flight that it is considered incoming. Every international flight I've been on, the boarding cards and visa waivers were handed out well after the midpoint, when it would be far more efficient simply to include them with the tickets.

Of course, it needs to be pointed out that the UK is our ally. Furthermore, United is a largely American company. So, deals can be worked out. As you point out, even given this, the UK is chafing at the restrictions.

I wonder if DorianGray etc. have considered just how much violence would have to be done to international law to enforce an American do-not-admit list at every single foreign port with every single airline that flies into the US. I wonder how many people think it's a terribly good idea, under civil rights, to make the do-not-admit lists available, in any form, in foreign countries. And I wonder how many would doubt that, if the US did just a few percent of this, DorianGray would be using big fonts about it.
 
crimresearch said:
So, Claus 'has said all he is going to say' about his own assertions, and then uses the Big Lie in the face of the examples I posted, while denying being a Sylvia Browne emulator?

Asked and answered Claus, Not interested Claus, Buh-bye Claus, Come back when you have some facts Claus...(you can start with the Styria thread that you ran out on when the 'tough' questions backed you into a corner).

(Make that 'Asked and answered repeatedly Claus')
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Asked and answered? Nope. You did not answer as to where the paranormal belief came in.

So, you think it is fine - perhaps even skeptical? - to accuse someone of being a woo, because they might be wrong about history and geography?

However, you are "not interested". I should come back when I have "some facts". Meaning: I should go away.

Whattamaroon... :rolleyes:
 
evildave said:
Actually, 'BMG' means Browning Machine Gun. Not to be confused with a 'BAR', whith is a Browning Automatic Rifle.

Trivia: The 'Whole Nine Yards' came from the length of ammunition belts for a BMG in various aircraft, which was 27 feet long, so giving someone the 'Whole Nine Yards' meant you emptied the machine gun into them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/b17tur.htm
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Well Dave I'm just shocked no one brought up the BFG 9000, good for A-rabs AND aliens. ( is that redundant?)
 
BPSCG said:
Either you forgot to take your antihallucinogens again or you forgot to hit the "irony meter" icon.
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Hey B-tovin are You deef? I repeated what You said and wait ....wait ...damn purple owl on my shoulder.

sorry where were we?
Oh Ya I agree with you, Bush sucks.
 
ny times - subscription emphasis added

May 23, 1989 The musician known as Cat Stevens said in a British television program to be broadcast next week that rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author Salman Rushdie, ''I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing.''

The singer, who adopted the name Yusuf Islam when he converted to Islam, made the remark during a panel discussion of British reactions to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's call for Mr. Rushdie to be killed for allegedly blaspheming Islam in his best-selling novel ''The Satanic Verses.'' He also said that if Mr. Rushdie turned up at his doorstep looking for help, ''I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like.''

''I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is,'' said Mr. Islam, who watched a preview of the program today and said in an interview that he stood by his comments.
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Yusuf Islam, formerly Cat Stevens, man of peace.
 
Well, that just makes me sad, Varwoche. When you listen to his music there is none of that. He traded a light of mind for a darkness of soul. How sad to grow older and "stupider".

Swaggart just made a stupid joke about if a gay looked at him funny, he'd kill him.

Robertson and Falwell have made their own idiotic comments. I wonder if they are on some other country's watch list.

Do you really feel closer to God when that kinda crap pours out of you? What am I saying? Of course you do.

My own belief is as I've mentioned before, is that God is a feeling. Specifically, any set of feelings that you become anchored to that you call God. I always think those feelings are elevations of hope and joy but more often they are not. Not when you allow others to instill you with their twisted ideals.
 
Atlas said:
Well, that just makes me sad, Varwoche. When you listen to his music there is none of that. He traded a light of mind for a darkness of soul. How sad to grow older and "stupider".
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I don't think I'll ever understand how literate adults adopt mythylogical belief systems.

Sure, on a human level it is sad. (I liked Harold & Maude -- don't tell anyone.)

In case it isn't apparent, what happened to Rushdie is an issue I have strong opinions about.

I am glad this came up. I'm reminded that some of the online book sellers yanked the title. (I'll verify and post the list of cowards later on.)
 
varwoche said:
I don't think I'll ever understand how literate adults adopt mythylogical belief systems.

Sure, on a human level it is sad. (I liked Harold & Maude -- don't tell anyone.)

In case it isn't apparent, what happened to Rushdie is an issue I have strong opinions about.

I am glad this came up. I'm reminded that some of the online book sellers yanked the title. (I'll verify and post the list of cowards later on.)
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Ya? well I bet You listen to the Dixie Chicks even tho they slammed Pres. Bush while in Europe fer crrissakes!.Damn commie!.
( Harold and Maude , one of my faviorate movies :) That and Dr. Strangelove )

Edit to add: Oh did I mention Cat Stevens muzak sucks?.
 
I wondered in a previous post whether the list is computerized further than a mere list. Spellings for foreign names are not standardized to the English alphabet.

It does seem like a spelling error played a part in this story...

The Yusuf Islam incident earlier this week, in which the former Cat Stevens was denied entry into the U.S. when federal officials determined he was on the government's "no-fly" antiterror list, started with a simple spelling error. According to aviation sources with access to the list, there is no Yusuf Islam on the no-fly registry, though there is a "Youssouf Islam." The incorrect name was added to the register this summer, but because Islam's name is spelled "Yusuf" on his British passport, he was allowed to board a plane in London bound for the U.S. The Transportation Safety Administration alleges that Islam has links to terrorist groups, which he has denied; British foreign minister Jack Straw said the TSA action "should never have been taken."

The incident points up some of the real problems facing security personnel as they try to enforce the "no-fly" list. One issue is spelling; many foreign names have several different transliterations into English. And the sheer size of the list is daunting; thousands of names have been added in the last couple months, says one government official, bringing the total up to more than 19,000 names to look out for. That makes it difficult for airlines and government agencies to check all passengers. Within the past six months, several people on the no fly list have been mistakenly allowed to fly.
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The spelling issue seems to have made the news recently. ted Kennedy's airport security flap seems the result of having a name similar to someone else's alias.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=40687
But Transportation Security Administration spokeswoman Ann Davis insisted Kennedy ``is not on the list, not now or ever. His name was similar to someone else's alias.''
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Now I don't knwo what to think. My initial thought was that the Cat Stevens flap seemed almost a dramatic publicity stunt, diverting the plane and all. If someone is such a big threat, shouldn't there be a way to keep them from boarding the plane to begin with? But Jack Straw's quote seems to play it off as a over zealous action on the part of the U.S.
 
Atlas said:
I wondered in a previous post whether the list is computerized further than a mere list. Spellings for foreign names are not standardized to the English alphabet.

It does seem like a spelling error played a part in this story...
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What was the name of the guy who runs Libya, again? Colonel somethingorother...?
 
CFLarsen said:
Asked and answered? Nope. You did not answer as to where the paranormal belief came in.

So, you think it is fine - perhaps even skeptical? - to accuse someone of being a woo, because they might be wrong about history and geography?

However, you are "not interested". I should come back when I have "some facts". Meaning: I should go away.

Whattamaroon... :rolleyes:
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Did you consult with Sylvia Browne before posting that Claus?


The 'paranormal belief' came out of your straw man arguments...in other words, you just made it up rather than face up to what I said, which is that YOU were a woo-woo...not that you espoused a particular woo-woo belief.

You are a woo-woo because you have made a deliberate decision to abandon rational discourse in favor of Sylvia Browne and Uri Geller tactics directed against skeptical thought and particularly against skeptics here on JREF...and it no more matters to me what you actually believe, than it matters to me whether the other two believe the snake oil they are peddling.

What matters is that all three of you have devoted yourseves to attacking skeptical thought wherever you find it, and masking your attacks in a mantle of chicanery...theirs paranormal, yours, faux-skeptic.

It may be an amusing game for you to play semantic and sophist games with weasel words in support of untenable positions, and then run away when cornered, but the reputation of JREF and skepticism suffers in direct proportion to the number of times you do so, because you wear the mantle of Uberskeptic while actively undermining critical thinking.

So you are accomplishing the same goals as Sylvia, and Yellow Bamboo, and Uri, and all the other anti-skeptical fanatics.

Woo-woos all.
 
crimresearch said:
Did you consult with Sylvia Browne before posting that Claus?


The 'paranormal belief' came out of your straw man arguments...in other words, you just made it up rather than face up to what I said, which is that YOU were a woo-woo...not that you espoused a particular woo-woo belief.

You are a woo-woo because you have made a deliberate decision to abandon rational discourse in favor of Sylvia Browne and Uri Geller tactics directed against skeptical thought and particularly against skeptics here on JREF...and it no more matters to me what you actually believe, than it matters to me whether the other two believe the snake oil they are peddling.

What matters is that all three of you have devoted yourseves to attacking skeptical thought wherever you find it, and masking your attacks in a mantle of chicanery...theirs paranormal, yours, faux-skeptic.

It may be an amusing game for you to play semantic and sophist games with weasel words in support of untenable positions, and then run away when cornered, but the reputation of JREF and skepticism suffers in direct proportion to the number of times you do so, because you wear the mantle of Uberskeptic while actively undermining critical thinking.

So you are accomplishing the same goals as Sylvia, and Yellow Bamboo, and Uri, and all the other anti-skeptical fanatics.

Woo-woos all.
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I thought you would need to resort to redefining "woowoo", in order to marginalize me. It now means, according to you, "someone who could be wrong". Who is playing games again? How is that going to help the reputation of JREF and skepticism?

Redefining otherwise accepted meanings of words is a typical woowoo trait. E.g. "evidence".

Nice going. I look forward to see you use this new meaning when discussing things with other people, too.
 
Atlas said:
I wondered in a previous post whether the list is computerized further than a mere list. Spellings for foreign names are not standardized to the English alphabet.
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We've had Soundex code since, what, 1940?
 
epepke said:
We've had Soundex code since, what, 1940?
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When I looked it up I read that Soundex was invented in 1918 by Robert Russell, so your guess was in the ballpark. I also read this 5 page PDF explaining the code itself...

Apparently, the Soundex codes are good as far as they go but they must be used with other values like birthdate and birthplace, or other distinguishing variables.

I took a look at the list of 32 spellings of the Libyan leader provided by BPSCG...
BPSCG said:
What was the name of the guy who runs Libya, again? Colonel somethingorother...?
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A characteristic of soundex coding makes them dependent on the first character of the person's name.

There was only one oddity. The "strange" spelling: "Kazzafi" gave a soundex value of K210, all the other spellings deliver back more similar codes K310, Q310 or G310. That is, of course, because the English spelling of his name can start with either K or Q or G. Even so, wildly different names will produce a "310" suffix. "Steve", for instance, is an S310 code.

In a sense, Soundex preserves anonymity and is sometimes used just for that purpose in transferring patient information, for instance.

Anyway, Soundex is bound to give hundrends of false hits when used alone but I do take your point using some coding scheme in a robust database scan is preferable to a ticket takers eyeball of a list with thousands of names.
 
Atlas said:
When I looked it up I read that Soundex was invented in 1918 by Robert Russell, so your guess was in the ballpark. I also read this 5 page PDF explaining the code itself...

Apparently, the Soundex codes are good as far as they go but they must be used with other values like birthdate and birthplace, or other distinguishing variables.
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Matching both the first and second name would narrow the possibilities down considerably. Results could be ranked by whether the first or last name gave an exact match. More sophisticated algorithms could narrow it down even more. I know that at least Oracle has intrinsic soundex algorithms.

In any event, Mohammed Atta spelled his name the same way that it was on the terrorist watch list. If you read the 9/11 report, about 10 of the hijackers were flagged.

Anyway, I merely bring it up because in the popular press I always see these things about different spellings, as if there were no extant algorithms that were helpful.

Thanks for the reference to the actual code.
 
Well we'd all better hope that there isn't a terrorist out there whose name sounds a little like ours. If the matching of individuals to lists is as good as it was in Florida when they were trying to purge the electoral register of ex-criminals then we're all in trouble.
 
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