carlson test and debunking randi

[Hokulele]

my book says it is based on USNO thats all.

In that case, I would recommend reading up on the various coordinate systems, how the coordinates are determined, and how to translate between them. It really is pretty neat, and not all that hard.

i can create my own charts but thats no longer necessary.It hasnt been necessary since around 1990 for chris sake.

Why is it not necessary?

Youre bloody nitpicky arent you?

Since you were asking for the exact birth time and location, including any shifts for DST, you should understand why nitpicking is important.

Youre so bogged down that you dont understand what I say.

I do understand, which is why you are getting in trouble here. So to get back a bit to the OP, why do you believe it is important to understand astrology before judging it, and what differentiates a "good" astrologer from a "bad" one?

 

[idunno]

In that case, I would recommend reading up on the various coordinate systems, how the coordinates are determined, and how to translate between them. It really is pretty neat, and not all that hard.




Why is it not necessary?

--- because of computer softwares. some are accurate




Since you were asking for the exact birth time and location, including any shifts for DST, you should understand why nitpicking is important.
---not all kind of nitpicking




I do understand, which is why you are getting in trouble here. So to get back a bit to the OP, why do you believe it is important to understand astrology before judging it, and what differentiates a "good" astrologer from a "bad" one?

---good astrologer--tells your personality in detail and possibly the kind of situations youll get in.
judging astrology before understanding it is pathetic in my view

 

[idunno]

I asked you more than once why a simple best match test could not determine whether or not astrology is valid. Yet now you tell us that you don't know enough astrology to determine whether or it is valid. So perhaps the reason all astrologers have failed the tests is because they don't know the difference between a tropical ephemeris and a sidereal. (I haven't a foggy notion myself, for what that's worth.)

Or perhaps it's because the whole thing is bogus. But I'm not clear why I should be listening to you at all now.

i said i dont have much experience with clients not that i dont know enough. im just trying to find out if the so called hidden persuaders apply here

 

[idunno]

i tell you how i find astrology appears to work.Its not very scientific but...
One of my friends is very practical but spontaneous, not disciplined.So i thought he might have a strong Aries. Today i pretended to be a female of the class and sent him an email asking his birthdata. He has Aries rising. I have many such cases

 

[Hokulele]

Why is it not necessary?

--- because of computer softwares. some are accurate

How do you know which programs are accurate? Are you going from reviews or recommendations or something? For example, arthwollipot did not feel that the chart you read was very accurate. Could that be a flaw in the software you are using?

And this leads me back to my comment about creating your own charts. Try this experiment. Generate a chart by hand for a birth date, time, and location (make one up if you have to). Generate a chart for the same data using two different computer programs. See how much similarity there is between all three. Now, if there is a discrepancy (and there will be), how do you know which chart is the most accurate?

 

[idunno]

How do you know which programs are accurate? Are you going from reviews or recommendations or something? For example, arthwollipot did not feel that the chart you read was very accurate. Could that be a flaw in the software you are using?

And this leads me back to my comment about creating your own charts. Try this experiment. Generate a chart by hand for a birth date, time, and location (make one up if you have to). Generate a chart for the same data using two different computer programs. See how much similarity there is between all three. Now, if there is a discrepancy (and there will be), how do you know which chart is the most accurate?

ive done that lots of times years ago. No need any more.Youre drawing peoples attention to irrelevant things again. maybe you are a Virgo or have virgo rising
astro.com is accurate,Wow is accurate,Astralpursuit.com is accurate.

 

[Hokulele]

ive done that lots of times years ago. No need any more.

So then how do you determine the accuracy of your computer software? Heck, even with the programs I use to do my taxes, I double check certain answers by hand.

Youre drawing peoples attention to irrelevant things again. maybe you are a Virgo or have virgo rising

Hoo ha ha ha! You have no idea how far off that is.

 

[idunno]

So then how do you determine the accuracy of your computer software? Heck, even with the programs I use to do my taxes, I double check certain answers by hand.

--i...used...to...do....that...a...lot. No....need..anymore.
Capice now???????




Hoo ha ha ha! You have no idea how far off that is.

thats why i said «maybe». I dont know you personally

 

[Hokulele]

No, I don't understand, that is why I keep asking. How do you know your software is accurate? Are you using the exact same version of software from 1990?

 

[idunno]

No, I don't understand, that is why I keep asking. How do you know your software is accurate? Are you using the exact same version of software from 1990?

no...and i give up on you

 

[Tricky]

In that case, I would recommend reading up on the various coordinate systems, how the coordinates are determined, and how to translate between them. It really is pretty neat, and not all that hard.

For some reason, it is a difficult conceptual leap for many people. We have only a few people in my company who understand geographic coordinates in any depth, and they are widely sought after when any such question comes up because most people think that latitude and longitude are absolute and invariable.

Since you were asking for the exact birth time and location, including any shifts for DST, you should understand why nitpicking is important.

You are correct that Idunno was nitpicking, but I will go out on a limb and say that there shold be no need to nitpick about time or coordinates because they shouldn't be that important. If there is any basis to astrology, then being a few miles off or a few hours off should not make major differences in the personality traits of the person. There should still be enough information to get a pretty good picture of what they are like, even if a little fuzzy when you get down to microscopic detail. After all, the twelve signs are supposed to confer major character traits. Can these be completely overridden by rising signs and such? If so, of what use are the sun signs?

In short, if there is any basis to astrology, a competent astrologer should be able to identify a person's sun sign from their traits at a percentage higher than would be achieved by random chance given a sufficently large sample size. Can you do this, Idunno? It is a fairly easy thing to test.

I do understand, which is why you are getting in trouble here. So to get back a bit to the OP, why do you believe it is important to understand astrology before judging it, and what differentiates a "good" astrologer from a "bad" one?

That's what I want to know too. In my opinion, it should be results-based, not based on the ability to regurgitate astrology text books.

I'd also be willing to bet that a good performance mentalist could beat an astrologer hands down on picking birth dates from random people in a crowd. Those guys know some amazing tricks.

 

[Hokulele]

i only take criticism from those who studied the subject.
Do not pretend to know the subject cause I would find easily

All the way from back on page one. Apparently this isn't true either.

And for any lurkers or other people who may be reading this, anyone who relies on a computer program, or any other tool, without doubling-checking, calibration, and otherwise having some indication that the results are reliable, is asking for trouble in the long run.

 

[idunno]

For some reason, it is a difficult conceptual leap for many people. We have only a few people in my company who understand geographic coordinates in any depth, and they are widely sought after when any such question comes up because most people think that latitude and longitude are absolute and invariable.

---how do you mean?


You are correct that Idunno was nitpicking, but I will go out on a limb and say that there shold be no need to nitpick about time or coordinates because they shouldn't be that important. If there is any basis to astrology, then being a few miles off or a few hours off should not make major differences in the personality traits of the person. There should still be enough information to get a pretty good picture of what they are like, even if a little fuzzy when you get down to microscopic detail. After all, the twelve signs are supposed to confer major character traits. Can these be completely overridden by rising signs and such? If so, of what use are the sun signs?

In short, if there is any basis to astrology, a competent astrologer should be able to identify a person's sun sign from their traits at a percentage higher than would be achieved by random chance given a sufficently large sample size. Can you do this, Idunno? It is a fairly easy thing to test.

----do you realize how many people are born in the same day.
we need the rising sign to know the person well.


That's what I want to know too. In my opinion, it should be results-based, not based on the ability to regurgitate astrology text books.

I'd also be willing to bet that a good performance mentalist could beat an astrologer hands down on picking birth dates from random people in a crowd. Those guys know some amazing tricks.

ooops

 

[idunno]

lets get practical.do you want to test?

 

[Tricky]

lets get practical.do you want to test?

Absolutely. First, we need to agree on a protocol. I'm not going to try to do the whole thing right now, but one of the most important parts is that when you (or whoever is doing the readings) gives the readings that they not contain any sort of reference to atrological terms. The reason for this should be obvious. A person with a modicum of knowledge could guess what sign you were referring to. Readings should containg character traits and character traits only. That is how correctness is judged.

 

[idunno]

Absolutely. First, we need to agree on a protocol.

ok you make the protocol if you wish

 

[Hokulele]

Sorry, missed this while I was composing my last post.

For some reason, it is a difficult conceptual leap for many people. We have only a few people in my company who understand geographic coordinates in any depth, and they are widely sought after when any such question comes up because most people think that latitude and longitude are absolute and invariable.

Yes, and that leads to my next point.

You are correct that Idunno was nitpicking, but I will go out on a limb and say that there shold be no need to nitpick about time or coordinates because they shouldn't be that important. If there is any basis to astrology, then being a few miles off or a few hours off should not make major differences in the personality traits of the person. There should still be enough information to get a pretty good picture of what they are like, even if a little fuzzy when you get down to microscopic detail. After all, the twelve signs are supposed to confer major character traits. Can these be completely overridden by rising signs and such? If so, of what use are the sun signs?

I am going to disagree here for a bit. Precision is at least as important celestially as it is terrestially. For example, when doing elevation calculations, how many decimal places do you carry on your convergence factor? Same thing applies to locating celestial objects. Certain objects such as the moon, sun, and even planets such as Mercury and Venus really hustle across the background constellations. There is a new sign rising approximately every two hours. It takes less than a second for a planet such as Mars to switch from retrograde to proper motion.

Mind you, I am not arguing that astrology actually works, but if it did, precision would be important.

In short, if there is any basis to astrology, a competent astrologer should be able to identify a person's sun sign from their traits at a percentage higher than would be achieved by random chance given a sufficently large sample size. Can you do this, Idunno? It is a fairly easy thing to test.

I predict idunno will not accept a test of this nature.

ETA: So far I am being proven wrong, but we will see if he will accept any protocol.

That's what I want to know too. In my opinion, it should be results-based, not based on the ability to regurgitate astrology text books.

I'd also be willing to bet that a good performance mentalist could beat an astrologer hands down on picking birth dates from random people in a crowd. Those guys know some amazing tricks.

Yup.

 

[idunno]

[,


I predict idunno will not accept a test of this nature.


---really? Then why not test year signs? Now it`s you who sound like a Wow

 

[Tricky]

---how do you mean?

I mean that the actual number can be variable depending on the method used to arrive at those numbers.

I can give you an example if you like.

----do you realize how many people are born in the same day.

Yes. Approximately 18 million. (World population divided by 365)

we need the rising sign to know the person well.

It is not important to know them well in order to test astrology. It is only important to know them well enough to place them in the correct sun sign at a rate significantly above random chance (i.e., better than one-in-twelve).

 

[idunno]

.

I can give you an example if you like.

---sure


Yes. Approximately 18 million. (World population divided by 365)


It is not important to know them well in order to test astrology. It is only important to know them well enough to place them in the correct sun sign at a rate significantly above random chance (i.e., better than one-in-twelve).[/quote]

---ok lets test it