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My belief is that the Stationary Engineer wouldn't have mentioned that little steel thing at all because that day he constructed a gantry to pull the heads of the smallest chillers at B6 - the 2500ton units.
Anything beyond your speculation and beliefs to support your claim? No? Time to move on then. IF you don't know what kind of press it was, THEN the value of that part of the testimony is basically null.

[qimg]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5979/bomb6.jpg[/qimg]
Would you say that the damage is consistent with a jet fuel fire ball but not with a bomb?
I would say that damage together with the witness testimony is inconsistent with a bomb and consistent with a fireball.

But the damage alone, as seen, is obviously Mothra's job. The 9/11™ can't disprove this theory, which is the only valid one for the destruction of that day, because all witnesses were in fear that Mothra would take revenge against them so they covered it up. Or maybe you can try to refute it?
 
Nope, the description 'body shop' is virtually unknown and unused in automotive circles in Yorkshire. Garages do the lot. 'Body shop' is a well known store for perfumes and the like. You appear to be an imposter and I do not believe you are in Yorkshire at all.

I told you. It is more practical and convenient for the investigation to asign the passengers and crew to an imaginary 9/11 Island with endless martinis and forget them for now.

A few at random

Branch Auto Bodyshop 12 Kirkstall Hill Leeds
Crispin Paint & Body Shop Unit 10/Holme Industrial Estate York
YORK AUTO BODY SHOP 194 MALTON ROAD YORK, NORTH YORKSHIRE
Auto Bodyshop Washington St, Middlesbrough, Cleveland,
Billingham Bodyshop and Repairs 14 Mill Lane, Billingham, Cleveland,
 
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How do you know it isn't? Just saying so?
That was all I wanted to say: You can't usually tell these things from a picture, and much less can you conclude these things from witness statements.
In other words, we don't trust any first hand information we have but trust your opinion.

Some others have pointed out that there is no proof for a 2001 basement explosion (meaning: high explosive, bomb-type material) vs. a fuel conflagration.
Well, and there is no proof of a fuel conflagration vs. any type of explosion that was capable to completely destruct 2+basement floors in a radius reaching down one more floor and caving in the subway path. Strangely enough the effect to the lobby was completely off center regarding the express shafts but destructed banks of local elevators with blown out doors and twisted cabins in the shaft.

More important to me is the consideration that in the 2001 scenario, a bomb in the basement would not make the slightest bit of sense: Why do this, when you smash planes into the tower high above, and have the towerd crash from top down? Any bomb in the basement would not have had any serious impact and would not have added in any meaningful way to the terror of what happened above.
I thought it is consensus that the towers fell due to extreme loading conditions? How do you get it?

These explosions did some damage and caused some casualties, but they did not even pose a major obstacle to rescue and evacuation activities.
Hmm, the alleged floor 22 "fuel conflagration" was indeed the major obstacle to fire fighting or rescue activities. No one could enter the MER floors. No one could open the roof access. The fire fighters had no proper communication system anymore. ...destroyed by some intelligent fuel that decided to reach the proper conditions at 22 not 23 or 21.

Firefighter Michael Yarembinsky:

When we got to 22, we heard there was a Port Authority command post on 22. So we were stopped there. My officer wanted to find out some information, my officer Lieutenant Andy Desperito. He went over to the command post. We noticed in the hallway that the elevator shaft had been blown out. There was nothing there, no doors, no framing, nothing. When you looked down, all you saw was the cables for the elevator and the brick work that was surrounding.
Q. Was it burning?
A. No burning, no smoke coming out of it.

Would you say that it is consistent with an explosion or a fuel conflagration? Sorry for citing an "unreliable" witness once again but express shafts 6 and 7 had no doors or framing at that floor. And 50 had no cables anymore. Which elevators is the fire fighter talking about? The rest about the consequences of the destruction of the OCC at 22 can be found in the report. (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, Chapter 6)
 
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Anything beyond your speculation and beliefs to support your claim? No? Time to move on then. IF you don't know what kind of press it was, THEN the value of that part of the testimony is basically null.
Oh, is it? The wild speculations about a tiny tipped over press I first read here - probably to discredit Pecoreros testimony.

I would say that damage together with the witness testimony is inconsistent with a bomb and consistent with a fireball.
:jaw-dropp

But the damage alone, as seen, is obviously Mothra's job. The 9/11™ can't disprove this theory, which is the only valid one for the destruction of that day, because all witnesses were in fear that Mothra would take revenge against them so they covered it up. Or maybe you can try to refute it?
You are perfectly right. ...and 9/11™ can't disprove this theory.

Btw, you missed that the above image was shot in 1993. It wasn't Mothra even if I cannot disprove it because logic and witness reports and even photographs couldn't convince you. Let's haunt UBL for another 10 years or so.

Is he on the most wanted list since we found his "confession tape" in the desert of Tarnak Farm after the airstrike?
... so we can ignore that he said that he wasn't it.
... and we can ignore that any terror makes no sense at all without anyone who takes responsibility.
 
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I don't suppose you have any actual evidence that suggests an inside job, do you?

ETA: Didn't think so. Just another JAQ off.
 
q.e.d.

Bye bye folks. Nothing left here anymore.
Have fun haunting the shadow of it.

Standard truther OP:
Take something that's already well understood.
Misrepresent it as much as possible.
Pretend that there's no explanation for it.
Claim that it proves the conspiracy theory.
Gloss over the fact that the conspiracy theory can't explain it.
Declare victory.
Ignore the fact that everybody sane still knows al-Qaeda did it.
Run away and hide.

Dave
 
No, you need a real complete quote.
Here's what Pecorero really said:


More real, complete quotes HERE


chiefengineer.org said:
"There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press ? gone!" The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. "You could stand here," he said, "and two inches over you couldn't breathe. We couldn't see through the smoke so we started screaming." But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building's lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor. "They got us again," Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building's structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building. Mike walked through the open doorway and found two people lying on the floor. One was a female Carpenter and the other an Elevator Operator. They were both badly burned and injured.


The whole story of Mike Pecararo ascent from the basement to the lobby is recounted there.

I'd like to bring attention to the parts I've bolded above. It's highly significant that Pecararo recalls the door being blown in the direction it was. How could a 300lb door be blown in that direction by an explosion supposedly emanating from below? For that door to have ended up where it was the force of the explosion must surely have originated from above toward the lobby.


Compus
 
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Well done! The engineer on the scene recalled seeing similar things happen to the building's structure in 1993. You find that there was no damage consistent with such bombs.
Which bombs?

The walls moved and people sustained blunt-force trauma from being hit with pieces of the walls. Some people were burned. Their clothes were on fire in some cases.

Get a freaking clue how bombs work. They DO NOT, under any circumstances, coat people with a Class B fuel and set them on fire. If you are close enough to be burned by HE, you are close enough to become a meat smoothie. That freaking simple. The injuries and structural damage done in the basement totally resembles that done by a phenomenon known to fire fighters as a "back-draft" in which hot gases, deprived of oxygen, collect in a confined space until oxygen is introduced, at which time it goes BOOM!
and throws people out of buildings or into walls and maybe lifts the builidng off its foundation, and causes thermal injuries of varying severity. If there is sufficient liquid fuel about the area, it may even cling to some of the victims.

[qimg]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5979/bomb6.jpg[/qimg]
Would you say that the damage is consistent with a jet fuel fire ball but not with a bomb?

This is consistant with an ANFO bomb several floors down or a backdraft in the lobby. Note that the glass is not spread out greatly, indicating that the over-pressurization was not very great, unless some clean-up had already occurred before this shot was taken, in which case it is worthless for forensic purposes.

Please note the amount of soot on the exterior of the building. This is an indication that it was taken some time after the event because there was once a great deal of smoke exiting from this area, but not when the photo was taken. I doubt that this picture has the slightest value in this discussion.

And we *do* know that the only way to get there was blocked by elevator cabins and survivors inside the cabin of car 50.

Yes, it would first crush the cabins into pieces.

It is a little unclear what you are saying here. The fuel would just go around elevator cars. Doesn't take much more than a moronic IQ to figure that out.
 
QED?

Declare victory and run away.

Even if you had managed to cast doubt on the accepted version of events it doesn't mean your versiob is the right one by default.

You are trying to do what Moon Hoaxers and Creationists do.
They haven't a clue either.
 
In other words, we don't trust any first hand information we have but trust your opinion.

What do you mean by "first hand information"? Any eyewitness report is second hand information. First hand information would be a physical measurement or recording of the event as it takes place.

So yes, we as skeptics do not trust any information just because it is there. We always try to corroborate and assemble all of the information - first, second, third hand - into a theory. That is something that the Truth Movement has utterly failed to do to this day - there is no theory anywhere, much less one that a significant portion of the TM could agree upon.

We try to assess any information in terms of reliabilty and know for example that eyewitness testimony must always be scrutinizes, always always always, as it is very much subject to errors of perception, expectation, memorization, recollection, manipulation by interviewers and all the doortraps of language.

Well, and there is no proof of a fuel conflagration vs. any type of explosion that was capable to completely destruct 2+basement floors in a radius reaching down one more floor and caving in the subway path.

Wrong. It has been reported by local press, who generally tend to get this sort of information directly from local hospitals, that many people were treated who had wounds that are consistent with conflagration and fire, but none were treated for wounds that are typical of the kinds of shockwaves bombs produce. No hearing loss, for example, no shrapnell that penetrated deeply into bodies.

Strangely enough the effect to the lobby was completely off center regarding the express shafts but destructed banks of local elevators with blown out doors and twisted cabins in the shaft.

I must admit I have difficultie assessing this narrative.

I thought it is consensus that the towers fell due to extreme loading conditions? How do you get it?

It is - extreme loading conditions brought about by fires and plane crashed high up in the towers, not loading conditions brought about by anything that happened in the basement. That's why bombs in the basement would have been redundant.

Hmm, the alleged floor 22 "fuel conflagration" was indeed the major obstacle to fire fighting or rescue activities. No one could enter the MER floors. No one could open the roof access. The fire fighters had no proper communication system anymore. ...destroyed by some intelligent fuel that decided to reach the proper conditions at 22 not 23 or 21.

Would you say that it is consistent with an explosion or a fuel conflagration? Sorry for citing an "unreliable" witness once again but express shafts 6 and 7 had no doors or framing at that floor. And 50 had no cables anymore. Which elevators is the fire fighter talking about? The rest about the consequences of the destruction of the OCC at 22 can be found in the report. (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, Chapter 6)

Again, I cannot tell you all scenrios this observation would be consistent with. That is because a) I have no sound basis of expertise or science to base my opinion upon; just trying to imagine things doesn't cut it and b) I must take into consideration that whatever the firemen tell from recollection is not what really happened. Reasons see above.
 
A few at random

Branch Auto Bodyshop 12 Kirkstall Hill Leeds
Crispin Paint & Body Shop Unit 10/Holme Industrial Estate York
YORK AUTO BODY SHOP 194 MALTON ROAD YORK, NORTH YORKSHIRE
Auto Bodyshop Washington St, Middlesbrough, Cleveland,
Billingham Bodyshop and Repairs 14 Mill Lane, Billingham, Cleveland,

Well how things change..Americanisation at work even in Yorkshire..Unbelievable. So it looks like I was wrong to doubt you on these grounds. Sorry.
 
I'm not talking about biggles-software. I'm talking about basic components. The technology for CD-Roms was originally planned as landscape memory. It was just some left-over that made it in the civil world.
Untrue, but that's a great example of how you operate. Knowing nothing about cruise missile navigation or optical storage, you just make something up (or repeat what someone else made up). When challenged, you keep digging. Eventually you declare victory and run away.

CD-ROMs were a spin-off of audio CDs, not the other way around. Audio CDs are derived from optical disk technology invented by David Paul GreggWP in 1958 (patented in 1961) and James RussellWP (patent filed in 1966). A recent article by one of the developers of the Compact Disk reviews its history:

Hans B Peek. The Emergence of the Compact Disk. IEEE Communications Magazine 48, 1, 10-17, January 2010.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5394021

That history doesn't mention any military technology. While in graduate school during the late 1970s, I took a summer job at an aerospace division of Control Data Corporation. The intended applications of my signal processing research that summer were classified, but I can tell you that my supervisor's main interest was real-time terrain matching for cruise missile targeting.
 
q.e.d.

Bye bye folks. Nothing left here anymore.
Have fun haunting the shadow of it.
that which was to be demonstrated = proved you have idiotic delusions about 911 based on ignorance and fantasy

Your youtube videos are bad science; what is your degree in?

F.A.I.L.
 
Standard truther OP:
Take something that's already well understood.
Misrepresent it as much as possible.
Pretend that there's no explanation for it.
Claim that it proves the conspiracy theory.
Gloss over the fact that the conspiracy theory can't explain it.
Declare victory.
Ignore the fact that everybody sane still knows al-Qaeda did it.
Run away and hide.

Dave

That's actually a pretty good summary. :)

Kind of strange that so many of them, with their variety of source confusions, wind up behaving the same.
 
What, is this guy on tour?


Is it just me, or are the loons getting loonier?
 
TexasJack said:
Is it just me, or are the loons getting loonier?


"And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"





Compus
 
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Oh BigAl, you are the bright wikipedia guy here. Of course the 2500 tons chiller do not weight 2500 tons.
Here is a picture of a modern 2000 tons ice chiller.
[qimg]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5476/2000tchiller.jpg[/qimg]
and a 2600 tons water chiller
[qimg]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7886/2600tbroadabsorptionchi.jpg[/qimg]

So much about the usability of your tipped over camping press.

So, you agree that when a piece of machinery has _____ Tons in it's name, it does not represent it's weight. Great.

Now, what are you arguing about?
 
Hmm, the alleged floor 22 "fuel conflagration" was indeed the major obstacle to fire fighting or rescue activities. No one could enter the MER floors. No one could open the roof access. The fire fighters had no proper communication system anymore. ...destroyed by some intelligent fuel that decided to reach the proper conditions at 22 not 23 or 21.

Stop. Just Stop. The firefighters in WTC 1&2 had problems with radios inside the tower for years. So, a repeater was added at some point. This repeater was basically, useless. The reason for the firefighters not have adequate communication means was not from "fuel conflagration". It was becase they had ****** radios, and a top brass that were lazy.

The other problem with communications was the fact that there were too many systems in use, and they did not communicate with each other. Some firefighters used one system, while others used another.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-27-talk-usat_x.htm
http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_rescueplan.html


Here is the most important, starting on page 5
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/mck_report/fire_operations_response.pdf

Now, STFU, as you know nothing about the radio problems on 9/11.
 

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