Cancer rise in Fallujah

The Fool said:
I was not aware that the US army issued pots of gold and rainbows? They certainly issue DU ammunition which the US army certainly expends all over Iraq. But hey, maybe, just maybe....they chose to not use the DU rounds in falluja. No Idea why they would do this but its certainly an angle that could possibly postpone progress in the discusiion while we all ponder this rather interesting distraction.
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You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
 
theprestige said:
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
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sorry my reply sailed over your head....could not figure how to make it simpler.. Your pots-o-gold story, while amusing, is not really making any valid point.....unless the probability of the US military using pots-o-gold and DU are similar...is that the theory?


just to be clear...you are going to start out with a denial that DU was used by the us in falluja? Is that going to hold the fort for a few pages at least .....eh?

The US army in Iaq used DU...why do you imagine falluja of all places was made an exception?

abrams tanks....A10 aircraft.....users of DU.....not used in falluja??
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
Because the enemy didn't have tanks there.



Where were the enemy tanks again?
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I'm starting to think you believe a10s never fire thier 30mm against anything other than tanks? I'm starting to think you believe that abrams never fire DU rounds at anything but tanks....never buildings bunkers and such? the bradley 25mm, I think they have a du round available.....but they didn't use it because there was no tanks.....wouldn't have thought of using them to penetrate masonary walls etc...Tanks only boys....or you will be in trouble.


tell me, all the DU all over Iraq. All fired at tanks eh?
 
The Fool said:
sorry my reply sailed over your head....could not figure how to make it simpler.. Your pots-o-gold story, while amusing, is not really making any valid point.....unless the probability of the US military using pots-o-gold and DU are similar...is that the theory?


just to be clear...you are going to start out with a denial that DU was used by the us in falluja? Is that going to hold the fort for a few pages at least .....eh?

The US army in Iaq used DU...why do you imagine falluja of all places was made an exception?

abrams tanks....A10 aircraft.....users of DU.....not used in falluja??
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I served in the US Army for six years. During that time, I saw more Soviet equipment than I ever saw a single US Army weapon system that uses DU ammunition.

Where's your evidence that even one round of DU ammunition was fired in Fallujah?
 
The Fool said:
I'm starting to think you believe a10s never fire thier 30mm against anything other than tanks? I'm starting to think you believe that abrams never fire DU rounds at anything but tanks....never buildings bunkers and such? the bradley 25mm, I think they have a du round available.....but they didn't use it because there was no tanks.....wouldn't have thought of using them to penetrate masonary walls etc...Tanks only boys....or you will be in trouble.


tell me, all the DU all over Iraq. All fired at tanks eh?
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So you have evidence that M1A1 Abrams tanks, A10 Thunderbolt II attack planes, and M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles were heavily engaged in Fallujah, and expended enough DU ammunition to generate the toxicity levels necessary to cause the claimed cancer increase?

The coalition operations in Fallujah are a matter of public record. Please tell us about all the recorded DU-loaded weapon systems employed there.

I mean, you're welcome to allege a secret main battle tank, rumbling secretly through the streets of Fallujah, firing secret armor-piercing, fin-stabilized, discarding-sabot, depleted uranium rounds at secret targets, if you like. But without any evidence, I'm not sure how you think that will help you.
 
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The Fool said:
I'm starting to think you believe a10s never fire thier 30mm against anything other than tanks? I'm starting to think you believe that abrams never fire DU rounds at anything but tanks....never buildings bunkers and such? the bradley 25mm, I think they have a du round available.....but they didn't use it because there was no tanks.....wouldn't have thought of using them to penetrate masonary walls etc...Tanks only boys....or you will be in trouble.


tell me, all the DU all over Iraq. All fired at tanks eh?
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EV-I-DENCE, Fool. Come on, man. Stick with us here.

Speculation is fun, especially when you're in the mood to get your yankeehate freak on, but we need real proof for this.
 
sigh

yankeehate? whatever....
are you in denial of DU usage all over Iraq or just Fallujah?
 
The Fool said:
sigh

yankeehate? whatever....
are you in denial of DU usage all over Iraq or just Fallujah?
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I'm in denial of both, actually.

I accept claims that DU ammunition was used by specific weapon systems in specific engagements, typically against enemy armor. I accept those claims when they are accopmanied by supporting evidence.

If you have evidence that enemy armored units were present "all over Iraq", please present it. If you have evidence that enemy armored units were present in "just Fallujah", please present it.

If you have evidence that DU-armed units were present "all over Iraq", please present it. If you have evidence that DU-armed units were present in "just Fallujah", please present it.

Please note that I understand you to mean by "all over Iraq" that every U.S. military formation deployed in Iraq, of squad size or greater, had access to DU-armed weapons and used them extensively in every engagement. If you mean something different, please clarify this before presenting your evidence.
 
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The Fool said:
sorry my reply sailed over your head....could not figure how to make it simpler.. Your pots-o-gold story, while amusing, is not really making any valid point.....unless the probability of the US military using pots-o-gold and DU are similar...is that the theory?


just to be clear...you are going to start out with a denial that DU was used by the us in falluja? Is that going to hold the fort for a few pages at least .....eh?

The US army in Iaq used DU...why do you imagine falluja of all places was made an exception?

abrams tanks....A10 aircraft.....users of DU.....not used in falluja??
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This is another of those evidence issues.

Were DU munitions used in Falluja? I don't know, I haven't seen any evidence either way. You're claiming it was...so the onus falls on you to show the evidence.

C'mon Fool! You can do it. Go find the evidence and fetch it back for us.


Then you can make some bizarre claim about how first we agreed with you, then we disagreed with you...or something incomprehensible.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6182724#post6182724
 
The Fool said:
sigh

yankeehate? whatever....
are you in denial of DU usage all over Iraq or just Fallujah?
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I'm in denial of Atlantis, faeries, Santa Claus and jewish involvement in 9/11.

I can be in denial of depleted uranium munition usage in Fallujah as well, though I haven't made that call yet. Your refusal to provide evidence that it was there makes that part real easy.
 
theprestige said:
The coalition operations in Fallujah are a matter of public record.
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Do you have link to these public records of what weapons were used against the people of Fallujah and the quantities used. Thanks.


theprestige said:
I'm in denial of both, actually.

I accept claims that DU ammunition was used by specific weapon systems in specific engagements, typically against enemy armor. I accept those claims when they are accopmanied by supporting evidence.

If you have evidence that enemy armored units were present "all over Iraq", please present it. If you have evidence that enemy armored units were present in "just Fallujah", please present it.

If you have evidence that DU-armed units were present "all over Iraq", please present it. If you have evidence that DU-armed units were present in "just Fallujah", please present it.

Please note that I understand you to mean by "all over Iraq" that every U.S. military formation deployed in Iraq, of squad size or greater, had access to DU-armed weapons and used them extensively in every engagement. If you mean something different, please clarify this before presenting your evidence.
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That's not what I understand by "all over Iraq". Seems like you are deliberately making an extreme interpretation out of petulance ...or something.

What do you think could be causing the disturbing symptoms that doctors in Iraq are observing?
 
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JihadJane said:
Do you have link to these public records of what weapons were used against the people of Fallujah and the quantities used. Thanks.




That's not what I understand by "all over Iraq". Seems like you are deliberately making an extreme interpretation out of petulance ...or something.

What do you think could be causing the disturbing symptoms that doctors in Iraq are observing?
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The evil of their Islamic anti-Americanism, causing cancer, of course.

I too would be interested in the weapons usage logs of our armed forces in Falujah, as well as any evidence illustrating significant DU usage there. My mind's open.
 
The Fool said:
I'm starting to think you believe a10s never fire thier 30mm against anything other than tanks? I'm starting to think you believe that abrams never fire DU rounds at anything but tanks....never buildings bunkers and such? the bradley 25mm, I think they have a du round available.....but they didn't use it because there was no tanks.....wouldn't have thought of using them to penetrate masonary walls etc...Tanks only boys....or you will be in trouble.
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Is there any reason to believe otherwise?

Answer the following question:
Soviet T-72s (and later tanks) have 3-man crews, whereas M1A2 Abrams has 4. The job of the fourth crewman is done by a mechanical system in Russian and Soviet tanks. What is the job of the fourth crew man and why did the US Army elect to have an extra crew member, rather than a mechanical system they were quite able to produce since at least WW2?

The answer will be very illuminating for you. Very illuminating indeed.

McHrozni
 
Symptoms of exposure to DU is evidence of exposure to DU. Not conclusive, but not all evidence is conclusive.

From the article in the OP:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html

Independent said:
Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth defects. He added that "to produce an effect like this, some very major mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks happened".

[...] Dr Busby says that while he cannot identify the type of armaments used by the Marines, the extent of genetic damage suffered by inhabitants suggests the use of uranium in some form.
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DU or something else, the cause is exposure to something in 2004.
 
McHrozni said:
Except that some other materials have the exact same symptoms.



No. Really? :eek::jaw-dropp

McHrozni
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K

So what else could it have been?

Someone ventured the (to my mind) fairly implausible claim that it might have been chlorine gas that the insurgents were using to build chemical weapons (hmmm.)

Perhaps you have another suggestion?

To me, DU seems like the most likely explanation but I'm willing to entertain alternative possibilities.

Also, if DU is solely used against enemy armour, is that what the 7.62mm DU shell is used for?
 
Captain.Sassy said:
K

So what else could it have been?
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Now infamous Polonium 210 is found in the Tobacco plant, and has the same alpha decay as Uranium. It's a lot less stable than Uranium - half-life of 138 days, as opposed to over 4 billion years - which means that 1 nanogram of Po-210 emits the same amount of radiation as 10 grams of Uranium. Naturally, the former amount is undetectable in the body and poses a negligible risk, while the latter is chemically lethal and it's radiation effects won't be even noticed.
If the availability of tobacco improved after the assault, if the habits of people changed in regards to tobacco products in a way that more people smoked, it could account for everything described in the study and more.

If it's chemical toxicity, we already discussed that lead, a very common metal, has largely similar effects. Plenty of other, also common metals are also known to be toxic, some also genetically. I find it infinitely more plausible that all the destruction brought to the city created dangerous aerosols with commonly present metals, which was then breathed in and genetically toxic than the amount of DU which Fallujah would warrant would be noticeable anywhere.

Someone ventured the (to my mind) fairly implausible claim that it might have been chlorine gas that the insurgents were using to build chemical weapons (hmmm.)
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Chlorine gas isn't a known cancerogen, that is true. However given the limitations and flaws with the study, I find the conclusion that DU is a likely culprit rather unsupported.

Also, if DU is solely used against enemy armour, is that what the 7.62mm DU shell is used for?
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There is no 7.62 mm DU shell. There is a 7.62 mm DU bullet, however. It's used for long range sniping. If it is still in use and if it was used in Fallujah (I haven't seen one bit of evidence for either) it could account for increased cancer rates in people hit by those bullets, but surviving the conflict. It is quite possible parts of the bullet will remain in the body and constitute a radiological hazard to that individual, but the danger to anyone else is virtually zero. Needless to say, the number of such individuals is insignificant and could not account for a measurable rise in cancer rates.

McHrozni
 
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