Cancer rise in Fallujah

[JihadJane]

Better/improved diagnostics would be my first take, considering that before Fallujah was taken, the medical situation there was probably late Stone Age.
(Shoot, the whole friggin' country!)

If true, how did this "late Stone Age" situation come about?

Pre-US invasion Iraq had the most advanced scientific-cultural order in the Arab world, despite the repressive nature of Saddam Hussein’s police state. There was a system of national health care, universal public education and generous welfare services, combined with unprecedented levels of gender equality.

 

[JihadJane]

Did I ever make that assertion? No, I did not. I merely pointed out that people are jumping to conclusions. Firstly, that there actually is a spike in cancer cases, and secondly, that the cause is necessarily depleted uranium. If you're going to abandon the scientific method every time something has a political dimension, then there is no hope for rationality here.

Do you have any suggestions for an alternative source of mutagens, apart from stress?

 

[Newtons Bit]

I don't think that any type of 25mm autocannon munition has much problem punching through concrete walls.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/m242.htm



A sabot would provide less effect, since sabot rounds are narrower, denser, and travelling at much higher velocities. Instead of knocking out a decent sized chunk, a sabot round would create a very small, relatively neat hole.

That article you linked to talks about how useful Armor Piercing rounds are against targets behind reinforced concrete. "The APDS-T round gives the best effects behind the wall, and the armor-piercing core often breaks into two or three fragments, which can create multiple enemy casualties."

So I'm really not sure what your argument is.

 

[Mycroft]

If true, how did this "late Stone Age" situation come about?

Pre-US invasion Iraq had the most advanced scientific-cultural order in the Arab world, despite the repressive nature of Saddam Hussein’s police state. There was a system of national health care, universal public education and generous welfare services, combined with unprecedented levels of gender equality.

Well, I guess Saddam was quite the hero then.

Do you have any evidence comparing pre-war Iraq to other nations in the region?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Do you have any suggestions for an alternative source of mutagens, apart from stress?

Do you understand that when someone asserts "A, therefore B" that someone questioning whether A is actually true doesn't need to come up with a C that causes B? Depleted uranium may well cause cancer. It sounds plausible to me. But what I'm objecting to here is the rush to conclusions that A) there has been a rise in cancer cases in this one location, and then argument over whether or not the cause was B) depleted uranium. Unless comparable methodology and thoroughness was used in collecting the statistics both before and after the war, you cannot make a decent comparison and therefore asserting there has been a change is highly questionable. This is not a medical problem, it is not a political problem. It is a statistical sampling problem. You cannot draw sound conclusions from bad data.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Planet Earth in what universe? That abstract mentions nothing of Fallujah.

lol

sorry

I thought you were looking for evidence that depleted uranium could cause birth defects and in particular deformities and bone problems.

This was a clinical study that did that, but no the study was not conducted in fallujah.

 

[TragicMonkey]

lol

sorry

I thought you were looking for evidence that depleted uranium could cause birth defects and in particular deformities and bone problems.

This was a clinical study that did that, but no the study was not conducted in fallujah.

But it is a good piece of evidence in the argument being made. It's just one piece, though. To prove that the cancer rise in Fallujah is due to depleted uranium, there are three things that need proving:

1. That there actually was a cancer rise in Fallujah.
2. That depleted uranium was introduced to Fallujah in the right timeframe.
3. That depleted uranium can cause cancer.

We need all three to make a reasonably strong argument.

(Which is, of course, irrelevant to the fact that cancers ought to be treated, regardless of cause, and that depleted uranium isn't something nice to have around and it should be removed. I'd say it's reasonable to remove it even without completely solid proof it causes cancer at all, given that when the stakes are high there is a lower threshold of proof required before action is reasonable. Provided, of course, that there actually is depleted uranium there to begin with. If not, removal will prove difficult!)

 

[McHrozni]

Possibly on earth, if you believe this abstract:

Observation of Radiation-specific Damage in Human Cells Exposed to Depleted Uranium: Dicentric Frequency and Neoplastic Transformation as Endpoints

Depleted uranium (DU) is a dense heavy metal used primarily in military applications. Published data from our laboratory have demonstrated that DU exposure in vitro to immortalised human osteoblast cells (HOS) is both neoplastically transforming and genotoxic. DU possesses both a radiological (alpha-particle) and chemical (metal) component. Since DU has a low specific activity in comparison to natural uranium, it is not considered to be a significant radiological hazard. The potential contribution of radiation to DU-induced biological effects is unknown and the involvement of radiation in DU-induced biological effects could have significant implication for current risk estimates for internalised DU exposure. Two approaches were used to address this question. The frequency of dicentrics was measured in HOS cells following DU exposure in vitro. Data demonstrated that DU exposure (50 µM, 24h) induced a significant elevation in dicentric frequency in vitro in contrast to incubation with the heavy metals, nickel and tungsten which did not increase dicentric frequency above background levels. Using the same concentration (50 µM) of three uranyl nitrate compounds that have different uranium isotopic concentrations and therefore, different specific activities, the effect on neoplastic transformation in vitro was examined. HOS cells were exposed to one of three-uranyl nitrate compounds (238U-uranyl nitrate, specific activity 0.33 µCi.g-1: DU-uranyl nitrate, specific activity 0.44 µCi.g-1: and 235U-uranyl nitrate, specific activity 2.2 µCi.g-1) delivered at a concentration of 50 µM for 24 h. Results showed, at equal uranium concentration, there was a specific activity dependent increase in neoplastic transformation frequency. Taken together these data suggest that radiation can play a role in DU-induced biological effects in vitro.

Incidentally, a concentration of 50 µM is roughly comparable to normal levels of Zinc, an essential metal, in human blood.
Plasma concentration of 3.5 µM (~15x less) of lead in blood requires immediate hospitalization and chelation therapy to avoid serious damage and even death. I'm quite positive the 50 µM of lead in blood would kill you by itself.
In other words (turning equations around), the plasma concentration of lead of 70 µg/dl requires immediate chelation and hospitalization. The tests were performed for Uranium concentrations of (about) 1200 µg/dl. Do you see the problem yet?

Do you have a better study maybe? One that used at least two orders of magnitude lower concentrations of DU, for example?

McHrozni

 

[Captain.Sassy]

But it is a good piece of evidence in the argument being made. It's just one piece, though. To prove that the cancer rise in Fallujah is due to depleted uranium, there are three things that need proving:

1. That there actually was a cancer rise in Fallujah.
2. That depleted uranium was introduced to Fallujah in the right timeframe.
3. That depleted uranium can cause cancer.

I agree with your three points, though I would note that the article itself doesn't conclude that depleted uranium munitions are the cause, though it does suggest the possibility.

Regarding (3), I would venture a guess that the measured gene-toxic effects of depleted uranium on bone cells suggests that depleted uranium may be a carcinogen, and one that could be expected to manifest itself in increased rates of leukemia, but I'm no oncologist. The carcinogenic properties of depleted uranium are also noted here:
http://www.ehjournal.net/content/4/1/17


Regarding (2), I agree that there is no definitive statement from the US gov't that they did use depleted uranium munitions in Fallujah. I have found a quote of a quote from an AFP reporter that a Lt. Col. Joe Yoswa confirmed the US was using DU shells in Fallujah, but I find this quote suspect. Did anyone from the US administration specifically deny the use of depleted uranium munitions in Fallujah? I haven't seen an official denial of the use of these munitions.

I am not convinced by the 'there was no armour in Fallujah, therefore no DU was used' argument that some have made. I find this argument weak for a number of reasons:

a) NATO forces have in the past used a 7.62mm DU round. I am not sure that such a round (I believe this is the M-16 calibre) would be used against enemy armour. The Bradley APC also fires 20mm DU rounds.
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp

b) There seems to be some (inconclusive) evidence that the US has been disengenuous about its use of DU rounds in other theatres where there is limited enemy armour
http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/283.html
http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/113.html

c) DU is not only used to pierce armour but is also used as a counterweight in missiles and rockets

Regarding (1), I did find a reference at one point for a statistic on birth defects and cancer in Fallujah in 2002, but the link was down. I agree that if there was any evidence that the rate of birth defects and childhood leukemia in Fallujah was quite high prior to the 2004 attack then this would certainly cast doubt on the hypothesis that the 2004 attack caused the birth defects. The anecdotes from local medical professionals do seem to suggest that the rate of birth defects increased substantially following the attack. I am open to any evidence that contradicts these doctors' statements.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Incidentally, a concentration of 50 µM is roughly comparable to normal levels of Zinc, an essential metal, in human blood.
Plasma concentration of 3.5 µM (~15x less) of lead in blood requires immediate hospitalization and chelation therapy to avoid serious damage and even death. I'm quite positive the 50 µM of lead in blood would kill you by itself.
In other words (turning equations around), the plasma concentration of lead of 70 µg/dl requires immediate chelation and hospitalization. The tests were performed for Uranium concentrations of (about) 1200 µg/dl. Do you see the problem yet?

Do you have a better study maybe? One that used at least two orders of magnitude lower concentrations of DU, for example?

McHrozni

nope, and nor do I have a study in which the osteoblasts were exposed to DU for years, rather than only for 24 hours.

 

[McHrozni]

nope, and nor do I have a study in which the osteoblasts were exposed to DU for years, rather than only for 24 hours.

Hardly a wonder - human body is quite able to repair radiation damage if it's of a low intensity. In other words, a constant, low level of radiation won't do you much harm. If that weren't true none of us would be alive right now. Given how weak the results of this study were, I now sincerely doubt DU could be a radiological hazard - you'll die from it's chemical effects well before the radiation will do any notable harm to you.
Maybe if you were struck by a DU round which would remain whole and have it embedded in your torso for a few years ...

But let's ignore facts they take us away from The Truth, eh?

McHrozni

 

[I Ratant]

If true, how did this "late Stone Age" situation come about?

Pre-US invasion Iraq had the most advanced scientific-cultural order in the Arab world, despite the repressive nature of Saddam Hussein’s police state. There was a system of national health care, universal public education and generous welfare services, combined with unprecedented levels of gender equality.

.
OK.
Very late Stone Age.
Saddam with his national death squads operating on all sects and divisions kept the inter-sect murdering to a minimum. They were too busy staying alive to worry about those Sunnis/Shiites across the street.
With his restraint (I crack me up!) removed, back to murdering those Sunni/Shiites that live across the street.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Here's an abstract where a much lower concentration of depleted uranium was found to have an effect on mouse white blood cells:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...=5682259&md5=ee37f34745d5a6ade7dee3ddec3f7b8c


Depleted uranium-uranyl chloride induces apoptosis in mouse J774 macrophages.
Kalinich JF, Ramakrishnan N, Villa V, McClain DE.

Applied Cellular Radiobiology Department, Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, Bethesda, MD 20889-5603, USA. kalinich@afrri.usuhs.mil

Abstract
Depleted uranium entering the body as a result of inhalation or embedded fragments becomes associated to a great extent with macrophages. As part of our continuing studies on the health effects of internalized depleted uranium, we investigated the effect of soluble depleted uranium-uranyl chloride on the mouse macrophage cell line, J774. Using a cytochemical staining protocol specific for uranium, we found that uranium uptake by the macrophages increased in a time-dependent manner. Treatment with 1, 10, or 100 microM depleted uranium-uranyl chloride resulted in decreased viability of the J774 cells within 24 h. Flow cytometric analysis of the treated cells with annexin V showed the translocation of phosphatidylserine from the inner face of the plasma membrane to the outer surface indicating the loss of phospholipid symmetry and the beginning of the apoptotic process. Significant differences in annexin V labeling between control cells and cells treated with 100 microM depleted uranium-uranyl chloride were apparent within 2 h. Other events associated with apoptosis, including morphological changes and DNA fragmentation, were also apparent after depleted uranium-uranyl chloride treatment. These results suggest that the uptake and concentration of soluble depleted uranium by macrophages initiates events that results in the apoptotic death of these cells.


p.s. surely calling someone a Truther is a form of godwinning?

 

[McHrozni]

Here's an abstract where a much lower concentration of depleted uranium was found to have an effect on mouse white blood cells:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...=5682259&md5=ee37f34745d5a6ade7dee3ddec3f7b8c


Depleted uranium-uranyl chloride induces apoptosis in mouse J774 macrophages.
Kalinich JF, Ramakrishnan N, Villa V, McClain DE.

Applied Cellular Radiobiology Department, Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, Bethesda, MD 20889-5603, USA. kalinich@afrri.usuhs.mil

Abstract
Depleted uranium entering the body as a result of inhalation or embedded fragments becomes associated to a great extent with macrophages. As part of our continuing studies on the health effects of internalized depleted uranium, we investigated the effect of soluble depleted uranium-uranyl chloride on the mouse macrophage cell line, J774. Using a cytochemical staining protocol specific for uranium, we found that uranium uptake by the macrophages increased in a time-dependent manner. Treatment with 1, 10, or 100 microM depleted uranium-uranyl chloride resulted in decreased viability of the J774 cells within 24 h. Flow cytometric analysis of the treated cells with annexin V showed the translocation of phosphatidylserine from the inner face of the plasma membrane to the outer surface indicating the loss of phospholipid symmetry and the beginning of the apoptotic process. Significant differences in annexin V labeling between control cells and cells treated with 100 microM depleted uranium-uranyl chloride were apparent within 2 h. Other events associated with apoptosis, including morphological changes and DNA fragmentation, were also apparent after depleted uranium-uranyl chloride treatment. These results suggest that the uptake and concentration of soluble depleted uranium by macrophages initiates events that results in the apoptotic death of these cells.

This looks a bit better, but not much more informative. They only reported rapid significant results upon uptake of 100 µM of uranyl chloride.
The lowest level, where they didn't report any significant changes within 2 hours, is still about 10x too high for radiation to be anywhere near as dangerous as chemical poisoning with Uranium, though. This seems pretty consistent with the previous study to me - extremely high concentrations of Uranium do pose a radiation hazard to cells, but you'll die way before than from chemical poisoning.

Note, though, that apoptosis could also be a result of chemical poisoning of the cells, rather than radiological damage, since the concentrations used are rather huge, as discussed earlier. Wikipedia calls the compound "spectacularly toxic", whatever that means. Material safety sheet that I dug out wasn't significantly more informative, it labeled the it as highly toxic and also a radiation hazard.

What strikes me as important is just how weak these results are. DU has been postulated by some as a radiological hazard over a decade ago, and yet evidence of that remains elusive.

p.s. surely calling someone a Truther is a form of godwinning?

Not if it's true

McHrozni

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Note, though, that apoptosis could also be a result of chemical poisoning of the cells, rather than radiological damage

Evidence has also been found of uranium's chemical genotoxic effects. So even if you don't believe that depleted uranium could cause radiation damage that would result in birth defects and cancer, this doesn't mean that its chemical properties wouldn't have these effects.

"But the new study, conducted by biochemist Diane Stearns shows that, separate from any radiation risks, cells exposed to uranium can bond with the heavy metal particles. That biochemical reaction can cause genetic mutations, which in turn can curtail cell growth and potentially cause cancer.

Stearns said the research is too preliminary to prove that uranium-treated ammunition can cause harmful side effects.

“But it does raise the question of whether we’re testing for the right things when we look at the health effects,” she said. “If we’re not seeing radioactivity in people being tested, maybe that’s not what we should be looking for.”http://www.stripes.com/news/study-depleted-uranium-could-damage-dna-1.47714

Not if it's true

McHrozni

It isn't.

 

[McHrozni]

Evidence has also been found of uranium's chemical genotoxic effects. So even if you don't believe that depleted uranium could cause radiation damage that would result in birth defects and cancer, this doesn't mean that its chemical properties wouldn't have these effects.

Sure. But there are many, many chemicals which cause just that and are much more common that DU, in Fallujah and elsewhere. Stating an increase in cancers (which is in itself unproven) is due to DU - or due to US war effort - is completely unsupported and unscientific.

I also find the quote somewhat strange. Curtailing cell growth is the main target of anti-cancer medicines, after all. It could be the sentence is meant to say something to the effect of "biochemical reactions with Uranium can cause genetic mutations, curtail cell growth or even cause cancer", which would be fine.
Even so, I find it hard to believe Uranium would be significantly (or at all) worse in this regard than certain other heavy metals, which are also used in ordnance and elsewhere. It's possible it is, but if it were that should be relatively simple to prove - and after a decade of fairly intensive study of the metal there is still just about nothing.

You probably also missed the part where DU accounted for up to 10% of all Uranium in the urine of exposed soldiers, if it was detectable at all. Uranium isn't something you want in your body, but you'll get plenty from environment. You might also get some from DU munitions (if your vehicle is hit by one), but natural sources will give you significantly more anyway. There is absolutely nothing to suggest it is a significant, or indeed noteworthy health hazard with current use.

It isn't.

'kay

McHrozni

 

[Pardalis]

Instead of starting with the conclusion that DU was the cause, has anybody considered any other possible explanation? Like the fact that Fallujah is an industrialized city, which has had chemical factories

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Chemical-bomb-factory-found-20041125

Insurgents have been known to use chlorine in their attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_bombings_in_Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethene#Existing_regulationAlso, the battle at Fallujah was six years ago, can DU still have effects that long after the exposure?

 

[theprestige]

Do you have an alternate explanation for the sudden rise in cancer rates in Fallujah?

My alternate explanation is the toxic rays emitted by the pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Too bad I can't show you any evidence that there were lots of rainbows with pots of gold at their ends in Fallujah...

... by the same token, too bad you can't show me there were lots of DU-loaded weapons discharged in Fallujah.

I'd be more than happy to abandon my claim, the moment you show me any evidence that your claim is superior. Meanwhile, since you don't yet have that evidence, could you remind me again why you think your claim is better than mine?

 

[The Fool]

My alternate explanation is the toxic rays emitted by the pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Too bad I can't show you any evidence that there were lots of rainbows with pots of gold at their ends in Fallujah...

... by the same token, too bad you can't show me there were lots of DU-loaded weapons discharged in Fallujah.

I'd be more than happy to abandon my claim, the moment you show me any evidence that your claim is superior. Meanwhile, since you don't yet have that evidence, could you remind me again why you think your claim is better than mine?

I was not aware that the US army issued pots of gold and rainbows? They certainly issue DU ammunition which the US army certainly expends all over Iraq. But hey, maybe, just maybe....they chose to not use the DU rounds in falluja. No Idea why they would do this but its certainly an angle that could possibly postpone progress in the discusiion while we all ponder this rather interesting distraction.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

that thread showcases some of the most ignorant and obnoxious people in this forums history.

At least one of them, anyway.

Got any evidence this time or do you just want to roll out personal attacks and name calling?