Cancer rise in Fallujah

I remember the last DU thread where we had crowds of apologists

But I don't, so if you'd be so kind as to back up your claim of apologists saying "they would be happy to have their house filled with DU dust", or "DU was harmless", and not to forget "etc etc etc."
 
But I don't, so if you'd be so kind as to back up your claim of apologists saying "they would be happy to have their house filled with DU dust", or "DU was harmless", and not to forget "etc etc etc."

Emotion trumps science again.

So if the science says the primary danger of DU is heavy metal poisoning and not radiation, and that lead is more dangerous as a heavy metal than DU is, then people who point this out are all lying liars because they wouldn't wand DU powdered on their breakfast cereal. Never mind that they don't want powdered lead on their breakfast cereal either.
 
Emotion trumps science again.

So if the science says the primary danger of DU is heavy metal poisoning and not radiation, and that lead is more dangerous as a heavy metal than DU is, then people who point this out are all lying liars because they wouldn't wand DU powdered on their breakfast cereal. Never mind that they don't want powdered lead on their breakfast cereal either.

and people who try to claim this is the only thing they were trying to "point out" are aslo dishonest...people who claim anyone is denying that lead is more toxic as a heavy metal are also dishonest...

as I said that thread showcased some of the most ignorant and obnoxious people in this forums history. I wonder if they are feeling a little horny for another run in the face of this report?

or they could simply observe reality and cease being apologists for the use of DU.

here is an example of a post from the author of the thread I linked to.

How about we plant 16 oz. pile of DU in the corner of my living room. We'll plant the same amount of cow crap in your living room too.

Heck, we can even aerosolise it.

No one is saying DU is nice to have as a house accessory, but it doesn't really pose an environmental threat either.


there you go mycroft...handwave that one away. It doesn't really pose an environmental threat.. It appears your compulsion to follow me around here trying to pick fault with what I post doesn't actually need to be factual or honest or anything eh?
 
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and people who try to claim this is the only thing they were trying to "point out" are aslo dishonest...people who claim anyone is denying that lead is more toxic as a heavy metal are also dishonest...

as I said that thread showcased some of the most ignorant and obnoxious people in this forums history. I wonder if they are feeling a little horny for another run in the face of this report?

or they could simply observer reality and cease being apologists for the use of DU.

If it helps, I have never apologized for it's use - it is extremely effective at making holes and destroying the inhabitants of heavilly armored equipment - making it much less likely that they will be able to harm American or allied soldiers. If something equally or more effective comes along that is less harmful to non combatants I would be happy to see it used.
 
If it helps, I have never apologized for it's use - it is extremely effective at making holes and destroying the inhabitants of heavilly armored equipment - making it much less likely that they will be able to harm American or allied soldiers. If something equally or more effective comes along that is less harmful to non combatants I would be happy to see it used.
how about we drop the lack of concern about the non combatants and use a slightly less effective weapon?

and please....don't give me the line that we must must must always only do...and use whatever weapon.... that minimises the risk to our troops....we don't flatten every structure we run into because its safer for the infantry.
 
that thread showcases some of the most ignorant and obnoxious people in this forums history.

You mean like this one?

Depleted Uranium dust is wonderfull stuff. Hands up all those who would like a few kilos of it spread around thier house? Maybe we could sell it as flower potting mix? Any takers?

The same guy who claimed the following:

I remember [...] crowds of apologists saying they would be happy to have their house filled with DU dust. DU was harmless etc [...]
clowns....

It truly saddens me...

I concur.:p

here is an example of a post from the author of the thread I linked to.

I assume you realize this came after your BS from above.

what I post doesn't actually need to be factual or honest or anything eh?

Looks like that's what you think, yeah.

It truly saddens me...
 
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Although I'm sure people will read all sorts of things into my saying this, one thing that has to be considered with cancer statistics is whether you're actually finding an increase in cases because there are more of them, or whether you're finding an increase in cases because you're looking for them. Who was keeping track in Fallujah before the war started, and were they looking as hard as they are now?

To put it another way, breast cancer is the most commonly found cancer, because thanks to public awareness people check for it. If someone came up with an easy, simple, well-publicized method to check for bone cancer we'd see a sudden spike in cases. Would that mean there was necessarily a sudden rise in bone cancers? Or just that we're finding what we would have missed before?

To put it bluntly, an apparent rise could just be a sample selection issue. What was the healthcare like pre-war? Who was checking for cancers? Who kept the figures? If there is an increase in cancer cases, what other changes have occurred? And when? Cancer doesn't always show up right after the carcinogen was introduced.

As for the birth issue, I recall reading once that stress can affect pregnancy. Surely expecting in a wartorn area is unusually stressful, and aren't males more likely to be miscarried than females?

And no, I'm not "pro-war" in general, or that one in specific. I just think there are more possiblities that ought to be considered before saying "My heavens! Cancer in Fallujah, it's depleted uranium!" followed by immediate bickering about the war in question.
 
Although I'm sure people will read all sorts of things into my saying this, one thing that has to be considered with cancer statistics is whether you're actually finding an increase in cases because there are more of them, or whether you're finding an increase in cases because you're looking for them. Who was keeping track in Fallujah before the war started, and were they looking as hard as they are now?

Doctors working there.

To put it another way, breast cancer is the most commonly found cancer, because thanks to public awareness people check for it. If someone came up with an easy, simple, well-publicized method to check for bone cancer we'd see a sudden spike in cases. Would that mean there was necessarily a sudden rise in bone cancers? Or just that we're finding what we would have missed before?

New detection methods would be taken into consideration, as they usually are.

To put it bluntly, an apparent rise could just be a sample selection issue. What was the healthcare like pre-war? Who was checking for cancers? Who kept the figures? If there is an increase in cancer cases, what other changes have occurred? And when? Cancer doesn't always show up right after the carcinogen was introduced.

As for the birth issue, I recall reading once that stress can affect pregnancy. Surely expecting in a wartorn area is unusually stressful, and aren't males more likely to be miscarried than females?

Can you point to some examples of stress causing the kind of birth defects and birth gender imbalances seen in Fallujah and other parts of Iraq?



And no, I'm not "pro-war" in general, or that one in specific. I just think there are more possiblities that ought to be considered before saying "My heavens! Cancer in Fallujah, it's depleted uranium!" followed by immediate bickering about the war in question.

To be fair, doctors observing the tide of previously rare or unknown symptoms and cancers previously only seen in Japan in relation to US atom bombs, have not rushed to such conclusions.

Other contributing factors such as malnutrition are not ignored. The possible use of other exotic weapons, tested on the people of Fallujah, may also need investigating, should the US military be ethical enough to confess.
 
Doctors working there.



New detection methods would be taken into consideration, as they usually are.

Okay, then. I pointed out some possible areas of error in the assumption, you assert they've been covered, so I guess we can safely conclude that there has been a rise in cancers in Fallujah and that rise is due solely to depleted uranium. Right?

Can you point to some examples of stress causing the kind of birth defects and birth gender imbalances seen in Fallujah and other parts of Iraq?

No, I don't have access to medical statistics of that nature, and I lack the interest to pursue it. If you can simply assert that a thing is so, then surely I can point out that something else may be so.

To be fair, doctors observing the tide of previously rare or unknown symptoms and cancers previously only seen in Japan in relation to US atom bombs, have not rushed to such conclusions.

Interesting that cancer = radiation = weaponry. There are other causes of cancer besides radiation, and other sources of radiation besides weaponry.

Other contributing factors such as malnutrition are not ignored. The possible use of other exotic weapons, tested on the people of Fallujah, may also need investigating, should the US military be ethical enough to confess.

Another assertion, an accusation, and a slur. Yes, I can see I wasted my time by pointing out a possible misuse of statistics in what is clearly a totally political thread. Disregard my post, everybody. Scientific method doesn't apply in politics.
 
The survey was carried out by a team of 11 researchers in January and February this year who visited 711 houses in Fallujah. A questionnaire was filled in by householders giving details of cancers, birth outcomes and infant mortality.
I can't help but question the accuracy of any health statistics that are generated from questionnaires. I recall one in High School where any number of my classmates became heroine addicted sex fiends because they thought it would be funny to fill in an anonymous survey that way. I suspect people who are (justifiably) pissed off at their town having been blown to hell might have motive to be less than truthful when asked if they think the attack caused them health problems.

Any link to Depleted Uranium seems tenuous at best, there was limited to no armor present in the city, I don't see that DU would have been the preferred ammunition to use in this situation.
 
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Indeed DU shells are used sparingly because of their high material cost. Fallujah was mostly infantry combat in mud brick buildings so regular bullets and HE shells would have been the preferred ordnance.
 
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I'd first look at the pre-war level of medical coverage versus that after the war.
Improved diagnostic capability equals seeing more bad stuff already there, but missed earlier.
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Indeed DU shells are used sparingly because of their high material cost. Fallujah was mostly infantry combat in mud brick buildings so regular bullets and HE shells would have been the preferred ordnance.

DU is reserved for combat with Armor..that is what the shells were designed for. Using them in a situation like Fallujah would be crazy.
But that will not keep the usual Anti American Chorus from chiming in.
 
Indeed DU shells are used sparingly because of their high material cost. Fallujah was mostly infantry combat in mud brick buildings so regular bullets and HE shells would have been the preferred ordnance.

I don't think they have a high material cost. In fact, DU is very cheap. It's a waste product of enriching uranium and the supply is bigger than the demand. It is stored in the form of UF6, which is a highly toxic and aggressive. Anyone storing it is happy to get rid of it.

For the rest, I agree.
 
However, that purely measures the number of radioactive decays, and does not distinguish between sorts of radioactivity. Beta particles (electrons or positrons) can be dangerous, IIRC, and gamma rays of course are outright bad for your health.

Uranium has alpha decay, which is pretty much harmless if it's outside the body. DU inside your body is more dangerous chemically than radioactively.

That said, DU is quite toxic chemically. The amounts used, however, is fairly small overall, and given the nature of Fallujah operations, which did not require the allies to destroy any significant amount of rebel armor, leads me to believe something other than DU was the primary cause. It's also possible, indeed likely, that there is a range of causes which are individually minor and consequently difficult to pinpoint.

Going to the study:
Between Jan 2005 and the survey end date there were 62 cases of cancer malignancy reported (...) including 16 cases of childhood cancer 0-14 (...).
(...)
There were 34 deaths in the age group 0–1 in this period giving a rate of 80 deaths per 1,000 births.


That's a rather small sample, at least some of the difference could be simply due to that. Clearly a few more infants died as a result of the breakdown during the assault and in the aftermath. Damage to infrastructure, fear, reduced quality of living and such could all play a role. We're talking about one extra death per month overall, and the nature of the events taking place in Fallujah at could all account for at least some of the extra deaths.

Moreover:
The total population in the resulting sample was 4,843 persons with and overall response rate was better than 60%.

This is rather poor and could lead to error margin significantly higher than the discrepancy, given that it's quite reasonable to assume people who did suffer from a death of a child or a cancer in the family were more likely to respond than the ones who didn't. The article does later state that "almost all" of the "approximately 30%" were from one area, but doesn't elaborate much further. The study makes some effort to address that problem, but we're largely supposed to take their word for it.

The only solid thing to go on is this:
The ratio of boys to 1,000 girls in the 0–4, 5–9, 10–14 and 15–19 age cohorts in the Fallujah sample were 860, 1,182, 1,108 and 1,010 respectively suggesting genetic damage to the 0–4 group (p < 0.01).

While this is anomalous, so is the number of boy versus girl births in the 5-19 age groups, suggesting small sample size problem. Indeed, the anomaly in the 5-9 age group is half the size of the 0-4 age group. While this is suggestive of a problem, calling such flawed statistical analysis anything more than suggestive and something that should be checked more thoroughly is, simply put, wrong.

Something else struck me out, it's from the table they pulled the numbers of births and deaths from. I can't parse it here, but I'll improvise.
0-4 age group: 234 males, 272 females
5-9 age group: 481 males, 407 females

Why are there so many more kids in the older age group? The study speculates on some reasons, but I think they missed the most obvious one: loss of population due to taking refuge in another part of the country, and the ones with kids being more likely to stay away, or fewer people deciding to create a child, maybe also better access to contraceptives. This is speculation on my part, but it's more likely than anything the study presented (they acknowledged some of scenarios as highly unlikely).

I'd say their time would be better spend scouring the city with Geiger counters and dosimeters. If the problem is indeed radiation they should be able to find it.

McHrozni
 
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I always wondered about that too. Depleted uranium is the waste product of enriching uranium. That means it has much less U-235, the fissionable isotope of Uranium. However, fissionable is not the same radioactive. In fact, both major isotopes of Uranium - U-238 (99.3% in nature) and U-235 (0.7% in nature) are radioactive. The first step in both decay cycles is emitting an alpha particle (= Helium nucleus) which is quite harmless:

(wiki link). However, the isotopes produced are themselves also radioactive, so this is just a first step in a decay cycle which ends with a stable isotope, in both cases a lead isotope.

In fact, the third isotope U-234 which only accounts for only 0.005% of natural uranium is responsible for nearly half of the radioactivity (DOD link). That link also says that DU has 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium. However, that purely measures the number of radioactive decays, and does not distinguish between sorts of radioactivity. Beta particles (electrons or positrons) can be dangerous, IIRC, and gamma rays of course are outright bad for your health.

To measure how much harmful radioactivity DU has (e.g., gamma rays) requires more knowledge of the decay cycles, the half lives of the isotopes involved etc.

This is a bit simplistic. The worst kind of radiation is an ingested alpha emitter after all. Because then you do not have your dead skin to stop the alpha particles and they can directly damage tissue. See the poisoning with Polonium.


Not to say that DU is a major radiological hazard, but alpha sources can be very harmful if say they are aerosolized.
 
Anybody wishing to convince me of DU-related side effects in Fallujah will first have to convince me that substantial numbers of DU-loaded weapons were fired in Fallujah.

Do you have an alternate explanation for the sudden rise in cancer rates in Fallujah?
 

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