Can we control the temperature of Earth?

[Reality Check]

M friend you said it was understood
It’s not. dot.
Either is the MF of the Earth. dot.

There are plenty of spaces for new thoughts.

I said that it is understood. That does not mean completely understood because science never completely understands anything. Science is the process of creating evermore accurate models of the universe. NO model is every completely correct.

If you want:
The MF of the Sun is mostly understood. dot.
The MF of the Earth is mostly understood. dot.
We have the dynamo theory that matches most of what the MF's of the Sun and Earth (and other planest and stars) actually do.

There are plenty of spaces for new thoughts that actually descibe when we observe. It is a pity that you have none:

1. The magnetic poles have been measured to be ~5000 kilometers below the surface of the Earth.
2. Crustal magnetism is < 2% of the Earth's magnetism!

 

[Bjarne]

I said that it is understood. That does not mean completely understood because science never completely understands anything. Science is the process of creating evermore accurate models of the universe. NO model is every completely correct.

If you want:
The MF of the Sun is mostly understood. dot.
The MF of the Earth is mostly understood. dot.
We have the dynamo theory ......

Amen

 

[Reality Check]

Amen

Science

 

[Toke]

There are plenty of spaces for new thoughts.

Yes, reality have plenty of space, but not enough to fit your ideas.

 

[Bjarne]

Yes, reality have plenty of space, but not enough to fit your ideas.

The solar wind is the real "Dynamo"
The Sun's MF is completely unique

 

[Reality Check]

The solar wind is the real "Dynamo"
The Sun's MF is completely unique

The solar wind is a stream of particles from the Sun.
The Sun's MF is not unique (there are other stars Bjarne!) and in fact has many similarities to the Earth's MF (shape, N/S/ poles, reversals, changes in strength). The dynamo theory explains the similarities.

 

[Bjarne]

The solar wind is a stream of particles from the Sun.
The Sun's MF is not unique (there are other stars Bjarne!) and in fact has many similarities to the Earth's MF (shape, N/S/ poles, reversals, changes in strength). The dynamo theory explains the similarities.

Richard Marsden, ESA's project scientist, explained:
"We expected the Sun to have a relatively simple magnetic field, such as the Earth's or that of a magnetised iron bar.
We thought we were going to find a local increase in the field's intensity.
But the probe did not detect any such thing and all the evidence so far suggests that the Sun has no south magnetic pole.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_26_1994_p_EN.html

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[dafydd]

http://news.stanford.edu/pr/02/solarmagnet612.html

 

[Reality Check]

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Nice press release.

Richard Marsden, ESA's project scientist, explained:
"We expected the Sun to have a relatively simple magnetic field, such as the Earth's or that of a magnetised iron bar.
We thought we were going to find a local increase in the field's intensity.
But the probe did not detect any such thing and all the evidence so far suggests that the Sun has no south magnetic pole.

Could it be that the Sun has no south magnetic pole? Or is one suddenly going to appear before Ulysses completes its pass? These are some of the questions exercising the minds of the team of scientists working on the project, who are keenly looking forward to comparing these results with those that will be coming through next year when the probe passes over the Sun's north geographic pole.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_26_1994_p_EN.html

During that pass in 1994 they saw no evidence of a south magnetic pole. In hindsight it was not that much of a surprise since this was at a solar minimum when the poles are weakest before they swap.

For a more up to date news atricle: NASA - The Mysterious South Pole of the Sun

Magnetically, Earth and sun have a lot in common. "Both the sun's and Earth's magnetic poles are constantly on the move, and they occasionally do a complete flip, with N and S changing places." This flipping happens every 11 years on the sun in synch with the sunspot cycle. It happens every 300,000 years or so on Earth in synch with--what? No one knows. "Studying the polar magnetic field of the sun might give us some clues about the magnetic field of our own planet."

 

[Bjarne]

Nice press release.

During that pass in 1994 they saw no evidence of a south magnetic pole. In hindsight it was not that much of a surprise since this was at a solar minimum when the poles are weakest before they swap.

For a more up to date news atricle: NASA - The Mysterious South Pole of the Sun

This is how it works
The Sun-wind / storms create very strong MF .
Up to 1000 times stronger as the "global" MF of ther Sun..

Sun wind is the real "dynamo"
Space in motion is the cause to any MF.

Because a magnetic field is = space in motion, - space that moves away from the Sun (Sun wind /storm) MUST come back again..

The result is this:

and sometimes this:

It's so simple, so naturally:

Space is connected to matter.
When matter moves space MUST move to. This is a MF.
THIS is a dynamo. Because when space moves away from the Sun, new space must be come back again.
This is why a MF is a circulation...
The same happens on "all sides" of the Sun

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sun_poles_030423.html

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[steenkh]

Where is Pixie when we need him?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Because a magnetic field is = space in motion, - space that moves away from the Sun (Sun wind /storm) MUST come back again..

The result is this:
http://www.science27.com/forum/sun2.jpg

and sometimes this:
http://www.science27.com/forum/sun1.jpg

It's so simple, so naturally:

Space is connected to matter.
When matter moves space MUST move to. This is a MF.
THIS is a dynamo. Because when space moves away from the Sun, new space must be come back again.
This is why a MF is a circulation...
The same happens on "all sides" of the Sun

-----------

Bjarne elaborates on his 'spacewind' thesis, making stuff up as he goes.

Still not the slightest understanding of thermodynamics, Bjarne thinks some kind of space fabric can go up one side of a hill and down the other, continuously creating energy in the process.



Hans

 

[Reality Check]

This is how it works
...
-----------

This is how it works
The Sun-wind / storms create very weak MF .
Up to 1000 times less as the "global" MF of the Sun.

Sun wind is the real "particles" from the Sun
Charges in motion is the cause to any MF.

Because a magnetic field is caused by charges in motion, - charges that moves away from the Sun (Sun wind /storm) MAY NEVER come back again..

The result is this: (a link to a crackpot web site)

and sometimes this: (a link to a crackpot web site)

It's so simple, so naturally:

Space is connected to matter.
When matter moves space MUST move to. This is a gravitational field.
THIS is a NOT dynamo. Because space never moves away from the Sun and new space must be never come back again.
This is why a MF is a not circulation...
The same happens on "all sides" of the Sun

 

[Bjarne]

This is how it works
The Sun-wind / storms create very weak MF .
Up to 1000 times less as the "global" MF of the Sun.

When the solar-wind is leaving the Sun the MF of these are much stronger that the MF of the Sun..

Read this:

However, superimposed on this basic field (called a dipole field) is a much more complex series of local fields that vary over time. Places where the Sun's magnetic field is especially strong are called active regions, and often produce telltale sunspots. The local magnetic field in the neighborhood of a large sunspot can be as strong as 4,000 Gauss... much, much greater than the Sun's average field..
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/sun/sun_magnetic_field.html

The Suns global MF is weak.

 

[Reality Check]

When the solar-wind is leaving the Sun the MF of these are much stronger that the MF of the Sun..
The Suns global MF is weak.

The Suns global MF is weaker than that around sunspots.
The solar wind does not originate from sunspots.
The MF of sunspots has nothing to do with the MF if the solar wind. The solar wind's magnetic field is that caused inside the plasma. It is small and short range -a few Debye lengths which for teh solar wind means a few hundred meters at most.

 

[Reality Check]

(Added the Sun question)

Bjarne has an idea that the Earth's magnetic field is generated by ferromagnets in the Earth's crust and the solar wind.The flaws in this idea are easy to see:

1. The magnetic poles have been measured to be ~5000 kilometers below the surface of the Earth.
   This has been known for 172 years !
2. The solar wind does not change the overall strength of the Earth's MF at any time.
   It has even stopped without any effects on the MF.
   AFAIK The strength of the MF does not vary as the Magnetic North Pole moves around the Artic Ocean nor with the strength of the solar wind as it is in the "central Artic ocean". But I am sure Bjarne can correct me with many scientific papers showing just that .
3. Crustal magnetism is < 2% of the Earth's magnetism!
   Bjarne, if you have sources that contradict this please cite them.
   A deafening silence so far !
   Rocks aren't strongly enough magnetized to account for the observed geomagnetic field
   First asked 16 February 2010

At this point his idea is totally invalid. There is no point in looking at it any more but there are even more flaws.

1. The crust varies in thickness - the MF does not correlate
   AFAIK, The strength of a magnetic field from a ferromagnetic material depends on the amount of the material. There is less crust under oceans and so Bjarne's idea predicts a geographical correlation between the MF strength and oceans.
2. MF reversals are not explained by Bjarne's idea
   The only ways that I can think of to reverse the MF in his idea are to turn the Earth's crust inside out or to heat it all up to ~800K and apply an external field.
   First Asked 2 March 2010
   I am currently trying to get him to explain his MF reversal in simple terms but just fantasies so far.
3. What is your evidence that dynamo theory is wrong?
   First asked 9 March 2010

Then there is the evidence of his lack of knowledge of physics:

• An abysmal lack of physics and mathematics on his web page.
• He has a couple of other threads that also demonstrate his ignorance. There is a list of the fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his two threads. One item makes it clear that his knowledge is small:
  Does Bjarne know basic physics (unit-less quantities cannot be arbitrarily assigned units)

Questions that he is unable to answer coherently:

1. What magnetic field is predicted by a ferromagnetic crust model?
   First asked 15 February 2010
2. Sources to support your assertion that the Earth's MF strength is influenced by the solar wind at any time
   First asked 16 February 2010
   The physical evidence is that the solar wind obviously shapes the Earth's magnetosphere. Geomagnetic storms can even influence the Earth's surface over short periods. But when the solar wind varies (or even stops) the overall strength of the MF does not change.
3. What creates your Big Box of Thermal Heat?
   First asked 26 February 2010
   He seems to think that oceanic crust is hotter than continental crust. As far as I know, he is wrong. He can prove me wrong with some citations to the literature that he is using for his idea.
4. What about the magnetic field of the Moon?
   First asked 1 March 2010
   So far just vague stuff about thermal heat, e.g. "Simply because the Moon do not have thermal Heat". But a lack of "thermal heat" increases the MF strength of ferromagnetic materials!
5. I am currently trying to get him to explain his MF reversal in simple terms but just fantasies so far.
   First Asked 2 March 2010
6. Where does Jupiter's magnetic field come from?
   First Asked 20 March 2010
   Jupiter does not have a ferromagnetic crust.
   The answer is an internal dynamo similar to Earth's
7. Where does the Sun's magnetic field come from?
   First Asked 23 March 2010
   The Sun does not have a ferromagnetic crust.
   The answer is an internal dynamo similar to Earth's

 

[Bjarne]

The Suns global MF is weaker than that around sunspots.
The solar wind does not originate from sunspots.
The MF of sunspots has nothing to do with the MF if the solar wind. The solar wind's magnetic field is that caused inside the plasma. It is small and short range -a few Debye lengths which for teh solar wind means a few hundred meters at most.

If the MF of the Solar wind was 1000 times weaker that the Suns MF and hence 500 times weaker that the Earth MF, - it would not be able to push the magnetosphere of the Earth. But it does.

 

[Bjarne]

The Suns global MF is weaker than that around sunspots.
The solar wind does not originate from sunspots.
The MF of sunspots has nothing to do with the MF if the solar wind. The solar wind's magnetic field is that caused inside the plasma. It is small and short range -a few Debye lengths which for teh solar wind means a few hundred meters at most.

4000 Gauss.
Pretty strong
And how do you think such MF is created?

 

[Toke]

4000 Gauss.
Pretty strong
And how do you think such MF is created?

Are you sure it is strong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss_(unit)

It is only twice the strength of one of these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet

It would fit inside a hard-disk.
It it not too impressive a magnetic field, the whole sun makes twice as much as a hard-drive.

 

[Bjarne]

Are you sure it is strong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss_(unit)

It is only twice the strength of one of these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet

It would fit inside a hard-disk.
It it not too impressive a magnetic field, the whole sun makes twice as much as a hard-drive.

Everything is relative.
The question is how is that relative strong MF created