Can this qualify as a challenge?

Good comeback!

Since you continue to refrain from contributing anything productive in this thread, have you considered posting elsewhere? You do give the organized skeptical movement a bad name.

This is page fifteen-would you mind telling me what exactly PeaceCrusader has contributed that is so productive? He comes back and gives one of the stock woo answers, and you think that his continuing to string you along just so he can see his name in print speaks well of him?
 
If any of you people scare PC off before he gives his full report, I am going to be extremely put out. Yrreg hasn't been posting and those CT nuts make me itch.
 
On this board we don't need to raise our voices to be heard.

PC has come here with a claim that he has communicated with the spirit of Jesus Christ through a medium in the Philippines. We have worked with him to develop a protocol to prove this claim. In the process, PC expressed his belief that the spirit could reveal the contents of sealed boxes or numbers written on a card and sealed in an envelope. Now, PC has just apparently revealed that the test cannot be performed as he thought it could.

I have never seen a woo back down on a claim even when presented with overwhelming contradictory evidence. That's one way to easily identify them.

We are still waiting to hear PCs story. I don't think he is going to woo us.
 
Good comeback!

Since you continue to refrain from contributing anything productive in this thread, have you considered posting elsewhere? You do give the organized skeptical movement a bad name.

Oh come now. Have you considered not reading my posts, if they annoy you so much? I'm told it's terribly easy to blinker oneself, if one must.

And, by the way, I'm not a member of any movements, except maybe bowel movements, and I am very disorganized.

M.
 
Last edited:
Oh come now. Have you considered not reading my posts, if they annoy you so much? I'm told it's terribly easy to blinker oneself, if one must.

And, by the way, I'm not a member of any movements, except maybe bowel movements, and I am very disorganized.

I think what annoyed GzuzKryzt was not the prospect of having to read your posts personally: it was the contribution which your posts (and others like them) may make to deterring woos from submitting their claims to testing based on the scientific method. I share this concern.

Of course, as you say you are only one poster on a free forum, and not a card-carrying member of anything. We are all free to speak our minds here. However, that does not absolve all posters here from considering the effect of what they post on others.
 
In my opinion, an "organized skeptical movement" would know when leg pulling is going on, and act appropriately.

Me using the phrase "organized skeptical movement" is kind of an inside joke to this forum. The poster T'ai Chi usually refers to skeptics with this phrase. An anagram of this phrase is "skeptics are very often humorless twits who take themselves too seriously", which makes it even funnier. ;)
 
I think what annoyed GzuzKryzt was not the prospect of having to read your posts personally: it was the contribution which your posts (and others like them) may make to deterring woos from submitting their claims to testing based on the scientific method. I share this concern.

My, you are a sensitive flower, aren't you?

Does it occur to you that a woo with a scintilla of confidence in whatever absurd claim is being made would scoff at my scoffing? Duh!

Maybe you really believe that PC's spirit ho actually has legs, in which case I am qualified to ask what, precisely, you are doing here?

Of course, as you say you are only one poster on a free forum, and not a card-carrying member of anything. We are all free to speak our minds here.
Absolutely...

However, that does not absolve all posters here from considering the effect of what they post on others.
...but then you go and spoil it all with that stupid comment.

M.
 
Dear Fellow Forumers,

This is the conversation I had with the spirit regarding the JREF Challenge on Holy Thursday, April 5, 2007:

Aristeo: Will you accept this Challenge?
Ama: I cannot accept that.
Aristeo: You cannot accept that?
Ama: No.
Aristeo: How can it be proven to people at James Randi who, many are atheists, many do not believe in God, that there are spirits, that there is God?
Ama: I cannot accept that because that is not special (in Pilipino, tangi) for us.
Aristeo: How is that, Ama? Not …?
Ama: That is not special for us.
Aristeo: It is not special for You. It is material?
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: For example, it is said that no prize whatever will be accepted.
Ama: We do not accept that.
Aristeo: You (plural) do not accept it?
Ama: No. Even if you ask the cloud, the answer is we do not accept that. (I do not understand what He meant by asking the cloud. It may be figurative.)
Aristeo: What should be done so that they will believe?
Ama: There is nothing proper but to listen.
Aristeo: That is what I will just tell them. I said that whatever is the result of my conversation with You, if you would agree or not, I would let them know on the Internet. I will just say that the spirit does not accept it (the Challenge).
Ama: No.
Aristeo: They can have their one million dollar (prize).
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: Thank you very much, Ama.
Ama: You are welcome.

This is roughly the translation to English of my asking the spirit regarding the Challenge. I may have to go through the recording again to accurately transcribe the session.

The medium, Mrs. Alvaran, will agree to participate if the spirit says so. Although she told me beforehand that the spirit will not agree because that is like gambling. The final say is with the spirit. Had He agreed, Mrs. Alvaran would have followed His order.

I am very sorry that my application for the Challlenge has to be cancelled. Without the participation of the spirit, I cannot know the numbers in the boxes.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
Yup. Still no evidence for "spirits", whatever his/her/its name.

Thanks for the transcript, PeaceCrusader.
 
The medium, Mrs. Alvaran, will agree to participate if the spirit says so. Although she told me beforehand that the spirit will not agree because that is like gambling. The final say is with the spirit. Had He agreed, Mrs. Alvaran would have followed His order.


PC, thank you very much for your report. Your devotion to your beliefs and to trying to spread your message is an admirable quality in itself.

I would ask you, however, to please consider the following. Imagine that I go to a spirit medium named Mrs. Bunko. In my seances with Mrs. Bunco, I hear the voice of God tell me all sorts of things about this life, the afterlife, history and the future. However, Mrs. Bunco is a fake. She is simply producing the sounds through some clever device with the help of a friend in the next room. The things she says about the past cannot be checked; the things she says about heaven obviously cannot be checked; nothing can be checked.

Believing that this is the voice of God, I go to Mrs. Bunco and ask God if he will remotely sense five random numbers. Now, Mrs. Bunco is a fake - she cannot possibly guess the numbers correctly. If she guesses and gets them wrong, I will realize she is a fake. If she refuses to hear my request, she'll look suspicious. So she does the only thing she can: she tells me that she is willing but we have to ask God for his permission. And then the voice of God refuses to take the test. God comes up with the excuse that it is not his way and belief must come from the heart, not from evidence.

I go away unsatisfied and Mrs. Bunco has escaped revealing that she is a fake.

Please consider the above, PC. Read it and think about it. Now let me ask you one question: If we were to remove the names, how can we tell Ms. Alvaran from Mrs. Bunco?

Ms. Alvaran, who is real, behaved in exactly the same way as Mrs. Bunco, who is a fake. Why should we believe Ms. Alvaran is real?

More importantly, why should you believe Ms. Alvaran is real?

I would be very glad to know whether this experience has made you reevaluate your own beliefs.
 
What we have learned from all this is that there are quite a number of psychics on this board who were able to correctly predict this outcome.

How could so many people here that have never seen this medium or heard the voice of the spirit be able to know how the spirit will react better than you Peace Crusader? Could it be that we have a better grasp of both reality and spirituality?
 
Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

PC, thank you very much for your report. Your devotion to your beliefs and to trying to spread your message is an admirable quality in itself.

I would ask you, however, to please consider the following. Imagine that I go to a spirit medium named Mrs. Bunko. In my seances with Mrs. Bunco, I hear the voice of God tell me all sorts of things about this life, the afterlife, history and the future. However, Mrs. Bunco is a fake. She is simply producing the sounds through some clever device with the help of a friend in the next room. The things she says about the past cannot be checked; the things she says about heaven obviously cannot be checked; nothing can be checked.

Believing that this is the voice of God, I go to Mrs. Bunco and ask God if he will remotely sense five random numbers. Now, Mrs. Bunco is a fake - she cannot possibly guess the numbers correctly. If she guesses and gets them wrong, I will realize she is a fake. If she refuses to hear my request, she'll look suspicious. So she does the only thing she can: she tells me that she is willing but we have to ask God for his permission. And then the voice of God refuses to take the test. God comes up with the excuse that it is not his way and belief must come from the heart, not from evidence.

I go away unsatisfied and Mrs. Bunco has escaped revealing that she is a fake.

Please consider the above, PC. Read it and think about it. Now let me ask you one question: If we were to remove the names, how can we tell Ms. Alvaran from Mrs. Bunco?

Ms. Alvaran, who is real, behaved in exactly the same way as Mrs. Bunco, who is a fake. Why should we believe Ms. Alvaran is real?

More importantly, why should you believe Ms. Alvaran is real?

I would be very glad to know whether this experience has made you reevaluate your own beliefs.

I firmly believe in Ama, the spirit. The medium, Mrs. Alvaran, is not a fake. Actually, in 1957, she was hesitant to become a medium.

I have mentioned that it took me eleven years (1983-1994) before I accepted that the spirit is Jesus Christ. Can you make your scrutiny that long?

One thing favorable that came out of my trip to the Philippines is my interviewing the people who remain devoted to the spirit. The interview is tape recorded. I then thought of putting up a website of the experiences of these people.

I asked them how they learned about the spirit or Mrs. Alvaran, how long it took them to accept that the spirit who appropriates Mrs. Alvaran's body is Jesus Christ, why they keep coming back, and other questions that I raised for clarification.

One person is Pilar Pilambato. She said that in 1978 or 1979, she was operated on her ovary for four times for cancer. The doctors had given up and told her that she would live for six months to one year only. In her desperation, she learned about a faith healer in Metro Manila and searched for her. I will put her entire story in a website, but to cut the story short, she is still living, robust, widow, now 70 years old, and is actively serving Mrs. Alvaran, the ill listeners, and the group of listeners.

A daughter related the experiences of her late father, Marcial Aguila, a journalist, who in 1973 or 1974 was given up by his doctors to live only for about three to six months due to lung disease. He was healed by the spirit, became a very ardent devotee, wrote articles about his experiences, one of which I read in the Sunday magazine supplement called Panorama. He lived until 1992 and died of old age.

I will let you know of its URL when I finish writing them.

Much that I would like to accept the Challenge, without the spirit's participation, I know it would fail. Even Mrs. Alvaran does not have, I think, that power to know the numbers in the boxes.

Deep within me, I am very thankful to those people, such as Jackalgirl and Loss Leader and others, who helped in formulating the test protocol. I hope that it be used later on.

The spirit has revealed future events, like where World War III will start (Philippines; Spratly Islands, in particular), the birth of three-eyed human babies, birth of baby with horn, human being giving birth to kitten, and cat to human being, the turning of our money to stone (meaning, it will become worthless), the loss of all jobs all over the world, the giving away of dwelling places (due to the death of many people), the abundance of women to few men but still men will not be satisfied, the death of six of every seven infants born with the surviving one becoming fierce, etc. I hope that when, not if, these happen, you will believe in the spirit. These prophecies may be better than the naming of the numbers inside the boxes to test the spirit. I had hoped that the spirit would agree to the Challenge to resolve the question once and for all, like what my father said. Unfortunately, it is the spirit who did not accept the Challenge. I do not understand what He meant when He said that it is not special to them.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
So let's see, god possess an unknown woman in a remote place with the express purpose of proving he exists. When asked to do anything that might actualy prove he exists he says no. God is apparently not all that intelligent.
 
Nice future prophecies only there is no date for any one of them. It's like in one of Randi's lectures where he says he let two woo women who said they have special powers to know what's wrong with your health. They said Randi had some kind of problem which would become very serious over time. Randi asked how long that could take and they said it could take maybe 20 years. Telling an 80 year old man that he has a problem which would become serious in 20 years is a joke.
saying all those prophecies without any date is also a joke. Obviously the spirit can never be wrong. If these prophecies do not become real then the spirit says "well give it time...eventually it will happen....it could even take up to 40, 50 or more years."

PeaceCrusader, hearing some stories from some people does not impress me much because all the other people who had illnesses and came to the spirit for help and died from their illness are dead and as we know the dead cannot tell stories (at least not to us...maybe Sylvia Brown can help us there).

Regards,
Yair
 
Nice future prophecies only there is no date for any one of them. It's like in one of Randi's lectures where he says he let two woo women who said they have special powers to know what's wrong with your health. They said Randi had some kind of problem which would become very serious over time. Randi asked how long that could take and they said it could take maybe 20 years. Telling an 80 year old man that he has a problem which would become serious in 20 years is a joke.
saying all those prophecies without any date is also a joke. Obviously the spirit can never be wrong. If these prophecies do not become real then the spirit says "well give it time...eventually it will happen....it could even take up to 40, 50 or more years."

PeaceCrusader, hearing some stories from some people does not impress me much because all the other people who had illnesses and came to the spirit for help and died from their illness are dead and as we know the dead cannot tell stories (at least not to us...maybe Sylvia Brown can help us there).

Regards,
Yair
 
Perhaps we could have prepared PC a bit better. Our vast experience with spirits has brought us into contact with these kind of restrictions on powers (doesn't work when money is involved, etc). He could have noted that upon winning the challenge, the money could certainy be refused, or given to charity.

I suppose I'd also be curious if Mrs. Alvaran charges anything, and if her services are not always entirely accurate (certainly, no medium is right all the time). I would think giving money for something that is not always accurate would be much more like gambling than taking payment for the task of proving a known paranormal phenomenon.
 

Back
Top Bottom