Can this qualify as a challenge?

[Loss Leader]

There is one other basic problem with the protocol as specified. Even without LL posting the cipher, if PC were to successfully find the target numbers there would be other non-paranormal explanations (ie: what if LL were in cahoots with PC and sent him the numbers).

I think we're losing sight of the forest, here. Let's remember the purpose of this number-guessing test. It is not to convince us that this woman is the real thing. It is not to convince us of anything. It is to help convince PeaceCrusader before he spends any more time or effort on this woman.

I have no reason to give the numbers to PC. His recitation of the right numbers on this thread will mean nothing to anyone but him. On the other hand, he has every reason to want to make sure that Jackalgirl does not change the numbers after the fact.

My role is to prevent Jackalgirl from cheating. I was chosen because PC and JG both agreed that I was an honest sort.

All of this enigma machine business appears to be over the top for this test's purposes.

 

[Dan O.]

I thought PC was submitting himself to this test publicly because he wants others to also believe in this spirit as he does.

If the spirit is correct in the numbers you generated, what will that mean to you? Would you believe the spirit and who He is?

Without controls in place to prevent cheating, I will simply consider that cheating is the most likely cause of a successful outcome. Both Loss Leader and Jackalgirl will also be questioning if the other or any one of the moderators had divulged the answers ahead of time. Even Peace Crusader will not be assured if the answers were provided by the real spirit or some collusion between JREF and the medium that will cost him real money to arrange and take the real challenge (How many JREF staffers would get a free vacation to the Philippines at PC's expense if PC thought he had the MDC already won?)

I would prefer to see a valid test with no possibility of cheating unless ALL of the participants colluded. For Peace Crusader to have the most confidence that the test is fair, even he should submit a set of numbers to the pool that will generate the target numbers.

 

[Loss Leader]

I thought PC was submitting himself to this test publicly because he wants others to also believe in this spirit as he does.

He may see that as a benefit, but it isn't the purpose of the test. He will know that he doesn't know the numbers. And he is certainly not likely to believe that this medium is cheating. Frankly, he probably wouldn't believe she cheated even if she told him she had.

 

[Czarcasm]

I thought PC was submitting himself to this test publicly because he wants others to also believe in this spirit as he does.

He is only pretending to submit to this test so that he can use this forum to promote his ideas. Every time you think he's about ready to start testing, he comes up with either another roadblock, another dodge or yet another meandering post that has nothing to do with the test itself. He will keep on doing this for as long as you play along with him.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

He is only pretending to submit to this test so that he can use this forum to promote his ideas. Every time you think he's about ready to start testing, he comes up with either another roadblock, another dodge or yet another meandering post that has nothing to do with the test itself. He will keep on doing this for as long as you play along with him.

Agreed. Play time is over.

PeaceCrusader, you're at bat.

 

[Jackalgirl]

There is one other basic problem with the protocol as specified. Even without LL posting the cipher, if PC were to successfully find the target numbers there would be other non-paranormal explanations (ie: what if LL were in cahoots with PC and sent him the numbers). ...

Howdy --

I agree with LL that this is getting very complicated for what is, in essense, an extremely informal test. You're quite right in that the protocol we came up with is insufficient, because it allows for cheating (as you said, LL could send the numbers to PC, or somehow either of us could be tricked out of the numbers by PC or friends of his/the medium's). I've already pointed out to PC that a test conducted specifically for the Challenge will most definitely be much more vigorous than this one. I was simply trying to save PC from flying all the way to the Phillipines and then have the bunch of us say, "wasn't blinded. No good."

However, I think there's some definite merit in discussing (perhaps in another thread), a means to set up a test that can be done remotely via the Internet. For example, something like this was briefly discussed in latent aaaack's thread about numerical guessing. So I'm going to start another thread. Please do come over and help me out, because I'm a novice when it comes to modern online crypto and am interested in learning more!

 

[Moochie]

Here's a test for PC's spirit ho. I have a set of lottery numbers I play every week. These numbers are registered with the Lotto agency here in Melbourne, Australia, and have been for a number of years.

The only way these numbers -- there are 6 -- could be discerned is either hacking the Lotto agency's computer system, guessing correctly all 6 numbers, or my collusion with PC's spirit ho in a profit-sharing deal.

If PC's spirit ho can reveal these numbers right here, in the not too distant future, I will eat my own feces.

M.

 

[Jackalgirl]

I just got word back from Jeff -- I won't post his message here, since I'm still waiting on permission from him to do so. But I will give you his response in a nutshell:

Yes, the Challenge could be handled that way: that is, PeaceCrusader would require the medium's presence as his assistant, and she could provide him with the info he needs to win the test.

I'll post Jeff's full reply if he gives me permission to do so.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

I think we're losing sight of the forest, here. Let's remember the purpose of this number-guessing test. It is not to convince us that this woman is the real thing. It is not to convince us of anything. It is to help convince PeaceCrusader before he spends any more time or effort on this woman.

I have no reason to give the numbers to PC. His recitation of the right numbers on this thread will mean nothing to anyone but him. On the other hand, he has every reason to want to make sure that Jackalgirl does not change the numbers after the fact.

My role is to prevent Jackalgirl from cheating. I was chosen because PC and JG both agreed that I was an honest sort.

All of this enigma machine business appears to be over the top for this test's purposes.

Would you call my faith "blind faith"? To tell you the truth, I used my intellect and not my heart to determine whether I should accept the spirit as the spirit of Jesus or not. It took me eleven years before I did accept the spirit to be Jesus. So you cannot convince me to drop off my faith, even with the tests that you propose--pass or failure. How about you? How can you be convinced to believe that the spirit that we talk to is Jesus?

It seems that even if the spirit is able to identify the contents of sealed boxes or your number tests, still you may not believe that the spirit involved is Jesus, or even deny that there are spirits.

I do not have to cheat and I do not have to collude with you, Loss Leader, to know the numbers. It will just defeat the purpose of the tests if I do so. I do not promote corruption and dishonesty.

Would you like me to enumerate some of the true events in my life that led me to believe that the spirit who we call Ama (God the Father in Pilipino) is none other than Jesus?

I wish to reiterate that my faith is in the spirit and not in the woman. The woman’s body is just used by the spirit in order that He can talk to, or converse with, us.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,



Would you call my faith "blind faith"? To tell you the truth, I used my intellect and not my heart to determine whether I should accept the spirit as the spirit of Jesus or not. It took me eleven years before I did accept the spirit to be Jesus. So you cannot convince me to drop off my faith, even with the tests that you propose--pass or failure. How about you? How can you be convinced to believe that the spirit that we talk to is Jesus?

It seems that even if the spirit is able to identify the contents of sealed boxes or your number tests, still you may not believe that the spirit involved is Jesus, or even deny that there are spirits.

I do not have to cheat and I do not have to collude with you, Loss Leader, to know the numbers. It will just defeat the purpose of the tests if I do so. I do not promote corruption and dishonesty.

Would you like me to enumerate some of the true events in my life that led me to believe that the spirit who we call Ama (God the Father in Pilipino) is none other than Jesus?

I wish to reiterate that my faith is in the spirit and not in the woman. The woman’s body is just used by the spirit in order that He can talk to, or converse with, us.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I have no interest whatsoever in your religious meanderings, PeaceCrusader.

I would like to see what next steps you intend to take on account of your eligibility for the JREF Challenge. After all, this is the Million Dollar Challenge subforum. You have eleven days left to send in a proper application under the old rules.

In any case, concerning your application, refer to Jeff Wagg because he handles the JREF Challenge currently: challenge@randi.org

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

I just got word back from Jeff -- I won't post his message here, since I'm still waiting on permission from him to do so. But I will give you his response in a nutshell:

Yes, the Challenge could be handled that way: that is, PeaceCrusader would require the medium's presence as his assistant, and she could provide him with the info he needs to win the test.

I'll post Jeff's full reply if he gives me permission to do so.

Thank you very much, Jackalgirl, for inquiring from Jeff Wagg. If I understand it correctly, I will be the applicant. During the preliminary and formal tests, the woman will be present as my assistant and with the spirit appropriating her body, the spirit will provide the info needed, and I will relay the info to JREF representatives to win the prize.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Moochie and Fellow Forumers,

Here's a test for PC's spirit ho. I have a set of lottery numbers I play every week. These numbers are registered with the Lotto agency here in Melbourne, Australia, and have been for a number of years.

The only way these numbers -- there are 6 -- could be discerned is either hacking the Lotto agency's computer system, guessing correctly all 6 numbers, or my collusion with PC's spirit ho in a profit-sharing deal.

If PC's spirit ho can reveal these numbers right here, in the not too distant future, I will eat my own feces.

M.

Did you know that nothing is impossible with God? Or you do not believe that there is God? I firmly believe that the spirit knows your number. He and I will not like to see you eat your own feces if He tells you what your Lotto numbers are. Don't stoop that low. Just open your heart that there must be God to know these impossible things (to man).

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,



Thank you very much, Jackalgirl, for inquiring from Jeff Wagg. If I understand it correctly, I will be the applicant. During the preliminary and formal tests, the woman will be present as my assistant and with the spirit appropriating her body, the spirit will provide the info needed, and I will relay the info to JREF representatives to win the prize.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Does this mean you will send in an application, PeaceCrusader? Will Mrs. Alvaran cooperate?

 

[Oualawouzou]

Would you call my faith "blind faith"? To tell you the truth, I used my intellect and not my heart to determine whether I should accept the spirit as the spirit of Jesus or not. It took me eleven years before I did accept the spirit to be Jesus. So you cannot convince me to drop off my faith, even with the tests that you propose--pass or failure.

(emphasis mine)

Then you are not using your intellect. Using your intellect mean being ready to drop your previous conviction if faced with evidence that goes against it.

How about you? How can you be convinced to believe that the spirit that we talk to is Jesus?

It seems that even if the spirit is able to identify the contents of sealed boxes or your number tests, still you may not believe that the spirit involved is Jesus, or even deny that there are spirits.

It's because there are three separate questions being adressed here:

-Are supernatural events taking place? (i.e. remote viewing)
-Are these events the feat of a spirit or spirits?
-Is this spirit Jesus?

The protocol addresses only the first of these questions. If you succeed in winning the challenge (hurry, clock's ticking), it means you will have demonstrated something supernatural is happening. Nothing more.

Let me use a wild analogy: "I live in a gingerbread house with a jackalope who can recite Shakespeare's 'King Lear' by heart." There are three separate claims here. If I show you a gingerbread house, would you agree that there is also a jackalope reciting King Lear, or would you agree only to have seen a gingerbread house?

Would you like me to enumerate some of the true events in my life that led me to believe that the spirit who we call Ama (God the Father in Pilipino) is none other than Jesus?

Eh, why not?

The woman’s body is just used by the spirit in order that He can talk to, or converse with, us.

I always find it somewhat amusing that an omnipotent God must use a lowly human's body and voice to communicate with other humans. By now, He should have learned how unreliable, treacherous and mischievous we are.

 

[Pup]

I firmly believe that the spirit knows your number. He and I will not like to see you eat your own feces if He tells you what your Lotto numbers are. Don't stoop that low. Just open your heart that there must be God to know these impossible things (to man).

It's nice of you not to force the feces-eating issue. But you seem to have omitted a step that usually goes before taking on the role of a magnanimous victor.

What are the numbers?

 

[Loss Leader]

Would you call my faith "blind faith"?

Yes.

You have demonstrated that there is nothing you will not do to preserve your faith. You have changed prophesies after the fact. You have rewritten definitions of words. You have ignored simple math. You have made excuse after excuse. This is what people with blind faith do.

You told us that this spirit had been incarnated into an Egyptian princess and you told us she was the daughter of a king. When challenged, you restated that she might have been the daughter of a governor. That is not what you originally said. How could the Lord God not know the difference between a king and a governor? How could the Lord God not know that "Gotacural" would be called "Aids?" Why do you have to make excuses for God?

It seems that even if the spirit is able to identify the contents of sealed boxes or your number tests, still you may not believe that the spirit involved is Jesus, or even deny that there are spirits.

I have answered this twice already. This will be the third time: All that a successful test will prove is that information can be transferred without using energy. This will convince me that the universe has a God but will tell me nothing about Jesus, the literal truth of the Bible, or even whether God was the one who performed the test.

When I turn on the tap in my home and the water is cold, that doesn't prove it's winter.

 

[yairhol]

I don't understand why everybody here keeps arguing with Peacecrusader. He has his own believes and others have theirs whether it's not believing in anything without proper scientific proof or whatever.
Let him take the test and face the conciquences be it a million dollars or coming up with excuses why the "spirit" failed the test (something like: the spirit failed on purpose so that only the true believers in god who need not any proof of his existence be congratulated in the afterlife or whatever...).
No matter what evidence be given to him he will keep turning things around to fit his believes.
I have a great respect for Peacecrusader and his total belief in something spiritual as long as he does not become a religious fanatic.
To each his own...

Thanks for reading,
Yair

 

[Czarcasm]

I don't understand why everybody here keeps arguing with Peacecrusader. He has his own believes and others have theirs whether it's not believing in anything without proper scientific proof or whatever.
Let him take the test and face the conciquences be it a million dollars or coming up with excuses why the "spirit" failed the test (something like: the spirit failed on purpose so that only the true believers in god who need not any proof of his existence be congratulated in the afterlife or whatever...).
No matter what evidence be given to him he will keep turning things around to fit his believes.
I have a great respect for Peacecrusader and his total belief in something spiritual as long as he does not become a religious fanatic.
To each his own...

Thanks for reading,
Yair

What exactly do you respect about Peacecrusader? Is it the lies? Is it his deliberate stalling? Maybe it's the way he changes his story every time he posts? Maybe it's the way he goes from forum to forum to forum, ignoring all requests for clarification, just so he can make his self-important proclamations?
Tell me what there is to respect about him.

 

[Czarcasm]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,



Thank you very much, Jackalgirl, for inquiring from Jeff Wagg. If I understand it correctly, I will be the applicant. During the preliminary and formal tests, the woman will be present as my assistant and with the spirit appropriating her body, the spirit will provide the info needed, and I will relay the info to JREF representatives to win the prize.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

You don't get to be the "applicant" until you "apply". You must submit a properly filled out "application" first.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Thank you very much, Jackalgirl, for inquiring from Jeff Wagg. If I understand it correctly, I will be the applicant. During the preliminary and formal tests, the woman will be present as my assistant and with the spirit appropriating her body, the spirit will provide the info needed, and I will relay the info to JREF representatives to win the prize.

Exactly so. If you want to clarify any points, just email Jeff at challenge@jref.org. Jeff's a cool cat and will help you out.

Edited to add: But as has been pointed out, you're going to need to hurry and get the app in. Make sure, when you send in the app, that you include an email address. It makes things go much faster.