Buzz lightyear and the JREF Challenge

[sackett]

t really tickles me when Buzz gets condescending.

Reminds me of a four-year-old who once said to me, "Bet YOU can't do THiS!" and immediately stuck his big toe in his mouth.

Of course I didn't bet with him, because he was right: I couldn't do that. I could when =I= was four, but time passes and things change.

Been a while since I wandered in here. I see that in Buzzland, time doesn't pass and things don't change.

Woo woo! goes the little train whistle.

 

[Hokulele]

And Hokulele, thanks for the link about the Hokule'a.
How does it feel for a skeptic when the captain chants for permission to enter the Te Ava Mo'a. Do you rush up brandishing your JREF membership card, screaming, "this is WOO rubbish" ? I think not.
And by the look in that guys face, he is meaning what he is saying.

I certainly have no problem with cultural symbolism in context. The night Mr Kapahulehua passed away, they held a Christian prayer service on board the Hokule'a on her way to Japan.

I have a problem with people who take cultural symbolism out of context and try to apply it where it does not belong.

 

[Ravenwood]

What if he can track an animal, kill it, and prepare it for eating. Wouldn't it give him more "understanding" than picking up a TV dinner at the mall?

I regularly stalk & hunt game with a 90lb longbow to both keep my freezer full & get some fresh air & exercise, been doing so for 25 years, Does it give me a better understanding? No. Does it give me the benefits of exercise & a 'fridge of venison & pork? Yes...

What if he can find water in a desert, and tell whether it is fit to drink.
Can you???

No, but I can do pretty well in rainforest, & know enough to carry a pretty damn good ceramic filter...(No lepto, thank you very much)

No Tricky it is not the education that takes man away from the spiritual world, it is his lifestyle.
It is living in a box, built by someone else. It is eating food from a box. It is travelling around in a box (on wheels).
It is living your life in a secure little box , protected at every turn from the reality of what the world is.
The one that the "ignorant" savage knew intimately.

I repair Computers & other high end electronics for a living. I also practice arts that many would think old & outmoded, like blacksmithing, traditional hunting & traditional woodworking & turning. As usual, your assumptions about the members of this forum are incorrect.

 

[jimbob]

Re: Hokulele's post

I read somewhere an account by a ninteenth/twentieth(?) century traveller who sailed with some polynesians. Fog came down and the boat began sailing in the wrong direction. According to this account, the standard practice in this cse was to survive until reaching land (one of the neighbouring island). In this case, the traveller had had a compass and easily persuaded everyone the direction to take.

Anyway I think from this photo it is obvious that millstone grit is evidence of an ancient civilisation and not a dragon.



(Stanage Edge on May 7th, and my daughter's foot...)

 

[jimbob]

Are you insane? Rats are one of the easiest of animals to keep. Their social order works just fine in cages, not that this has anything whasoever to do with the topic.

Do you really want an answer?

I only eat live creatures, mmm parasitism.

Jim the botfly larva

 

[buzz lightyear]

Just to reinforce Tricky's points, those formations are common around the world.
Here are a couple of examples from Brazil. In Portuguese, but some have abstracts in English. Some pics are not of good quality but are more than enough to show you the overall morphology of the features.

http://www.unb.br/ig/sigep/sitio025/sitio025.htm
http://www.ibama.gov.br/revista/7cida/pagina13.htm
http://www.ufpi.br/sete_cidades.php

http://www.uepg.br/propesp/publicatio/exa/2002/01.pdf
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Estadual_de_Vila_Velha

There are more, at other sites. I just don't have time to google for them all.

Before you ask, no, there are no Native Brazilian myths of giant serpents or dragons associated with their formation, neither are reptiles regarded by Native Brazilians as linked to creation. And yes, some tribe do use hallucinogegic substances in their rituals.

And yes, I've been there, both for work and tourism. Yes, I read a lot about Native Brazillian myths. Yes, I talked with the folks who live there about their myths.

Your "hypothesis" has too many holes. You'd better accept that and stop ranting against those who are pointing them.

You don't need more pics. What you actually need is knoweledge. And you also need to be humble enough to admit you may be wrong.

ETA: Tricky is a faster googler and typer!

Ye hah! Paydirt!
Thanks a million, Tricky and Correa Neto, for the great pics and links. I knew if I leant on you guys long enough that you would come up with "the goods".

The Brazilian site is mindblowing (oops, bad choice of words).
Anyway it sure looks as if the old "mudcracks" theory has finally bit the dust, or are you not humble enough to let it go?

I am not sure how the Utah site fits into my "hypothesis" so any more pics would be greatly appreciated . The same goes for the site in Brazil.

Thanks again guys.

 

[buzz lightyear]

I regularly stalk & hunt game with a 90lb longbow to both keep my freezer full & get some fresh air & exercise, been doing so for 25 years, Does it give me a better understanding? No. Does it give me the benefits of exercise & a 'fridge of venison & pork? Yes...

No, but I can do pretty well in rainforest, & know enough to carry a pretty damn good ceramic filter...(No lepto, thank you very much)

I repair Computers & other high end electronics for a living. I also practice arts that many would think old & outmoded, like blacksmithing, traditional hunting & traditional woodworking & turning. As usual, your assumptions about the members of this forum are incorrect.

So you hunt pigs with a long bow, hey Ravenwood.
And you get no understanding from it........... CRAP.

Have shot the odd pig myself, with a rifle, and if you can find a pig and bring it down with an arrow you are one mighty hunter.
(Unless they are in the yards on old Macdonald's farm)

In my part of the world pigs are usually in the wildest country and are mostly only active at night. So to find them you have to be able to track through rough country or use dogs. But you say you are "stalking" so dogs are out.
And if you are eating them you are choosing your pig, no tough old boars.

So by hunting pig, the understanding that you are getting is:terrain knowledge, tracking, archery, pig habits, meat edibility assesement, parasite knowledge, butchery and meat storage.
That is a bloody side more "understanding" than picking up a kilo of bacon at the shop.

And I too practice an ancient art, its called scorcery.
The tools that I use are spirits of wind, water, fire, rock, pentium, and microsoft. So your assumptions of "woos" may also be incorrect.

 

[Tricky]

Ye hah! Paydirt!
Thanks a million, Tricky and Correa Neto, for the great pics and links. I knew if I leant on you guys long enough that you would come up with "the goods".

The Brazilian site is mindblowing (oops, bad choice of words).
Anyway it sure looks as if the old "mudcracks" theory has finally bit the dust, or are you not humble enough to let it go?

The "mudcracks" theory was only one of several that were offered as possibilities. It does appear though that the cracks are erosional features with differential erosion occurring around the edges of the polygonal joints (which is another one of the theories that was offered).

But the "serpent scale theory" was not supported by this data and still is not. It is by far the most unlikely of any of the scenarios presented. So are you ready to drop it now?

I am not sure how the Utah site fits into my "hypothesis" so any more pics would be greatly appreciated . The same goes for the site in Brazil.

It doesn't. No evidence thus far presented fits into your "hypothesis". But your choice of words is quite telling. You are not looking for truth. You are looking for something that "fits into your hypothesis". You are so wedded to this hypothesis that you are incapable of abandoning it even though it cannot answer the simplest of questions.

 

[Correa Neto]

Ye hah! Paydirt!
Thanks a million, Tricky and Correa Neto, for the great pics and links. I knew if I leant on you guys long enough that you would come up with "the goods".

The Brazilian site is mindblowing (oops, bad choice of words).
Anyway it sure looks as if the old "mudcracks" theory has finally bit the dust, or are you not humble enough to let it go?

I am not sure how the Utah site fits into my "hypothesis" so any more pics would be greatly appreciated . The same goes for the site in Brazil.

Thanks again guys.

Are you humble enough to let YOUR fantasy hypothesis go?

Do you really think all polygonal structures have the same origin?

Polygonal joints in basalt, sandstone, siltstone, granite, soil (yeah, soil!), mud (yeah, mud!) and permafrost (yeah, permafrost!) have the same origin?

No, they don't! And none involve giant serpents. All of them involve expansion and contraction.

What about getting yourself a physical geology book and do some reading? Your local library probably has some. I highly recomend Sir Arthur Holme's Principles of Physical Geology. It has been updated a number of times and has a very nice, clear and understandable writing style. The edition from the 80's should be more than enough to clear your doubts. You can also probably find it at some used books stores for a fair price

 

[Little 10 Toes]

So you hunt pigs with a long bow, hey Ravenwood.
And you get no understanding from it........... CRAP.
[...]
So by hunting pig, the understanding that you are getting is:terrain knowledge, tracking, archery, pig habits, meat edibility assesement, parasite knowledge, butchery and meat storage.
[...]
And I too practice an ancient art, its called scorcery.
The tools that I use are spirits of wind, water, fire, rock, pentium, and microsoft. So your assumptions of "woos" may also be incorrect.

What "understanding" should Ravenwood have? He knows how to hunt, kill, and butcher pigs. I see that as knowledge, and not "understanding". (Note: I am *not* saying Ravenwood is some stalker or heartless. An American "mountain man" would know and do exactly what Ravenwood did). Does your savage know of tax laws, the closing market value, exchange rates, internet gambling or off-shore banks that a 21st century investor knows and, I dare say, "understands"? Does the knowledge that the other has, make one more knowledgable than the other? I know neither the life style of a savage, nor of a investor, but I can tell you that I have thought about sleeping at a Holiday Inn.

[Holiday Inn (hotel chain in America) been showing a series of commericals showing people doing things / saving things in the nick of time. The people being rescued then asks in general terms about the savior's knowledge/training. Savior then replies that he/she has no training, but did sleep at a Holiday Inn.]

Please provide proof of sorcery, scorcery [sic], spirits of wind, water, fire, rock, pentium. I believe that the spirit of Microsoft is either greed and/or
incompatibility, so no need to look for that.

(P.S., spell correctly what you do. It might give you some believability.)

 

[buzz lightyear]

What "understanding" should Ravenwood have? He knows how to hunt, kill, and butcher pigs. I see that as knowledge, and not "understanding". (Note: I am *not* saying Ravenwood is some stalker or heartless. An American "mountain man" would know and do exactly what Ravenwood did). Does your savage know of tax laws, the closing market value, exchange rates, internet gambling or off-shore banks that a 21st century investor knows and, I dare say, "understands"? Does the knowledge that the other has, make one more knowledgable than the other? I know neither the life style of a savage, nor of a investor, but I can tell you that I have thought about sleeping at a Holiday Inn.

[Please provide proof of sorcery, scorcery [sic], spirits of wind, water, fire, rock, pentium. I believe that the spirit of Microsoft is either greed and/or
incompatibility, so no need to look for that.

I'll respond to you first Little 10 Toes.

I take it from your post, that you havn't done much hunting,.... I have.
If you take your hunting seriously, then you have learn as much about your quarry as you can. If fact, to be a great hunter you have to "become" the creature you are pursuing. And when you are on the hunt, you are locked into a relationship with it and its habitat.
This relationship gets even more personal once you bring it down. If it is only wounded, you have to look into its living eyes knowing that you are going to kill it. If it is something "beautiful" like a deer, then some emotion becomes involved.
If you want the meat to be at its best, it is good to bleed it. To do this you get up close and personal. You grip the creatures head, feel under its jaw to find the point where the neck meets, and drive your knife through and cut forward.
You then pull its head back and twist to break the kneck, as it thrashes in its death throes.

The next process is to skin it while it is still warm, as the skin comes of easier. It is remarkable how similar a warm animal body feels to that of a human,..........enough said!
In the skinning process the you become covered by the creatures smell, it lingers for days.
Then you slit open the belly to pull out the guts.

You can understand why I am a vegetarian,....... it is the "understanding".

 

[Correa Neto]

You know, I'm hungry.

BTW, am I the only one who noticed that "noble savages" with their great ancestral wisdom (that some claim to be so superior to ours) are very fond of meat?

 

[Tricky]

You know, I'm hungry.

BTW, am I the only one who noticed that "noble savages" with their great ancestral wisdom (that some claim to be so superior to ours) are very fond of meat?

What? Are you telling me they didn't follow the buffalo around because of the great fertilizer they left behind???!!

And interesting, your sig kinda addresses this issue

"Out here in the fields
I fight for my meals."

It's like, prescient or sumpthin.

 

[Correa Neto]

LOL!!!

It should actually have been "I fight WITH my meals"...

That's past lives stuff! You never get the full information from one to another, you know man, its quantum, that thingie with the cat...

 

[buzz lightyear]

Polygonal joints in basalt, sandstone, siltstone, granite, soil (yeah, soil!), mud (yeah, mud!) and permafrost (yeah, permafrost!) have the same origin?

No, they don't! And none involve giant serpents. All of them involve expansion and contraction.

Well isn"t' this interesting, one moment the "geological" clan is swearing by the desication or "mud crack" theory, now come "hell or high water" it's "expansion and contraction".
Come on guys,.............. at least I am sticking to the one hypothesis.

So since this "expansion and contraction" is flavour of the month, maybe you would be so kind as to explain, in your infinate wisdom, how it works.
Particularly at this site.

From what I know this is weathered down sandstone, close to the equator.
So these formations occured pretty much where they are and in a fairly constant temperature.
So I am REALLY interested to know how a solid block of sandstone can become like this. And from what I have read there are a lot of other folks who would also like to know the answer to this riddle.

And while you are throwing the knowledge around, could you tell me how these couple of beauties formed.


I particularly like how the strata follows the shape of the holes.

 

[Belz...]

You can understand why I am a vegetarian,....... it is the "understanding".

Well, maybe you should start understanding plants. Maybe you'll switch to eating rocks, after that.

at least I am sticking to the one hypothesis.

Like any good fanatic. Real scientists change their theories when the facts contradict what they believed was true. People like you prefer to change the facts.

And while you are throwing the knowledge around, could you tell me how these couple of beauties formed.

They're Dragon pores, obviously.

I find your tone quite telling. "while you are throwing the knowledge around". The less someone knows, the more frustrated they become with other people's knowledge. Apparently you can't stand the fact that you are being schooled on these matters and that your "hypothesis" is being utterly demolishes. Ego, I suppose, can be a powerful motivator.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Well, maybe you should start understanding plants. Maybe you'll switch to eating rocks, after that.
...

Bender: "I found some rocks. You guys eat rocks, right?""
Leela: "No."
Bender: "Not even if they're sautéed in a little mud?"

From the Futurama episode "The Problem with Popplers".

 

[Tricky]

Well isn"t' this interesting, one moment the "geological" clan is swearing by the desication or "mud crack" theory, now come "hell or high water" it's "expansion and contraction".

I did explain it to you several months back. Even though you ignored it then, I'll try once again to give you a thumbnail sketch of how it happens.

By the way, both mud-cracks and polygonal joints owe their appearance to the fact that when fractures occur in isotropic solids, they tend to fracture in polygonal patterns. For example, have you ever seen a pane of glass, like a car window, that fractured on a cold morning? It is the same thing and the broken pieces are quite similar to the shapes of the sandstone or mud-crack polygons. The contraction due to the cold was compensated for by regular fractures within the glass.

From what I know this is weathered down sandstone, close to the equator.
So these formations occured pretty much where they are and in a fairly constant temperature.
So I am REALLY interested to know how a solid block of sandstone can become like this. And from what I have read there are a lot of other folks who would also like to know the answer to this riddle.

The expansion, in this case, came from decompression. At one time, these formations were deeply buried under many tons of rock which kept them at enormous pressure. As eroson stripped off these layers, the pressure was relieved and the overall rock expanded. Regularly spaced cracks or "joints" in this isotropic medium compensated for the overall expansion.

You see, Buzz, with the exception of ash falls and cooled lava flows, most of the rocks you see were formed at great depths. Although the sediments were deposited on the surface, they don't become compacted and cemented until they are buried. There are, of course, some exceptions to this, like caliche and beach rock, but I guarantee you that none of those formations were deposited as sandstones. They were deposited as sands. The sands got covered up by many layers of other sediments, compressing them and forcing fluids through them which may have deposited cement between the grains.

Deposition and erosion, Buzz, deposition and erosion. We see both of them going on today. We use that knowledge to make testable theories about what would happen after millions of years of deposition and erosion. The present is the key to the past.

 

[realpaladin]

I'll respond to you first Little 10 Toes.

I take it from your post, that you havn't done much hunting,.... I have.
If you take your hunting seriously, then you have learn as much about your quarry as you can. If fact, to be a great hunter you have to "become" the creature you are pursuing. And when you are on the hunt, you are locked into a relationship with it and its habitat.
This relationship gets even more personal once you bring it down. If it is only wounded, you have to look into its living eyes knowing that you are going to kill it. If it is something "beautiful" like a deer, then some emotion becomes involved.
If you want the meat to be at its best, it is good to bleed it. To do this you get up close and personal. You grip the creatures head, feel under its jaw to find the point where the neck meets, and drive your knife through and cut forward.
You then pull its head back and twist to break the kneck, as it thrashes in its death throes.

The next process is to skin it while it is still warm, as the skin comes of easier. It is remarkable how similar a warm animal body feels to that of a human,..........enough said!
In the skinning process the you become covered by the creatures smell, it lingers for days.
Then you slit open the belly to pull out the guts.

You can understand why I am a vegetarian,....... it is the "understanding".

Hey man! This isn't a contest!

 

[buzz lightyear]

The expansion, in this case, came from decompression. At one time, these formations were deeply buried under many tons of rock which kept them at enormous pressure. As eroson stripped off these layers, the pressure was relieved and the overall rock expanded. Regularly spaced cracks or "joints" in this isotropic medium compensated for the overall expansion.

I,m grooving with you Tricky, like I can dig where you are at.
But sorry this "senario" doesn't wash, particularly in this pic.

Same stone, same depth of pressure, one is "cracked" as buggery, the adjacent is as smoothas a baby's bum.
Not even a wisp of a crack.
I'll go with the exfoliation thing and the pressure relief but here it is "fairy tails".
You are grasping at straws old chum.

And what about those holes in the Navajo formation?
Let me guess, erroded by a stream, when the water level was at that height. Like, the water flowed in one hole and out the other, yes! thats it! in one hole and out the other, so simple. Huh ....derrr.