Buzz lightyear and the JREF Challenge

[Little 10 Toes]

Oh no, not you too Gzuz! First it was Jackalgirl, then The Athiest, now you.
All my friends are deserting me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Proof?"

It is pretty hard to get peer review on this subject Belz.
The fact that I have to resort to disscussing the subject on an internet forum is testament to that.

Repeat that last sentence a few times and let it sink in.

The major difference detween dreams and the type of "visions" that I experience, is that in the visions I am fully conscious.
So interaction with entities in the vision is on a conscious level, not as an observer as would happen in a dream.

Since the nature of the vision is closly related to the sounds that I am producing, to alter or stop them is simply achieved by altering the pitch or magnitude of my voice.

But I'm preaty sure that you lower your body temp to hypotherma areas, and you just lay in a heap in the cave. That sounds conscious to me.

 

[Belz...]

It is pretty hard to get peer review on this subject Belz.

And why is that ? Hundreds of years of hoaxes and willful ignorance. And when put to the test, yours always fail.

The fact that I have to resort to disscussing the subject on an internet forum is testament to that.

Which unfortunately won't resolve this issue until you come to terms with reality.

The major difference detween dreams and the type of "visions" that I experience, is that in the visions I am fully conscious.

I also asked you if you could tell them from hallucinations. Hallucinations tend to happen when you're awake. Again, how could you tell the difference, since the very definition of hallucination is that it fools your brain into thinking it is real ?

So interaction with entities in the vision is on a conscious level, not as an observer as would happen in a dream.

That's patently false. I frequently interract consciously with my dreams, doing stuff, feeling stuff and actually modeling that reality. I'm not a passive observer.

 

[buzz lightyear]

And why is that ? Hundreds of years of hoaxes and willful ignorance. And when put to the test, yours always fail.

I also asked you if you could tell them from hallucinations. Hallucinations tend to happen when you're awake. Again, how could you tell the difference, since the very definition of hallucination is that it fools your brain into thinking it is real ?

That's patently false. I frequently interract consciously with my dreams, doing stuff, feeling stuff and actually modeling that reality. I'm not a passive observer.

There is always a first time for everything, Belz. And since I am having much difficulty putting my ideas to the test, failing doesnt enter the equation at present.

As for the "hallucinations", have a look at this thread it might put some light on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelics,_dissociatives_and_deliriants

 

[Belz...]

You're not answering my questions, Buzz. I'm not asking you if those drugs are hallucinogens. I'm asking if you could tell the difference. By definition, you could not.

 

[buzz lightyear]

You're not answering my questions, Buzz. I'm not asking you if those drugs are hallucinogens. I'm asking if you could tell the difference. By definition, you could not.

Hey Belz, if the drugs cant make you hallucinate then you are not hallucinating, capeesh.
Here is an extract from the Wikipedia page, since you have trouble negociating links.

Quote:

One thing that most of these drugs do not do, despite the ingrained usage of the term hallucinogen, is to cause hallucinations. Hallucinations, strictly speaking, are perceptions that have no basis in reality, but that appear entirely realistic. A typical "hallucination" induced by a psychedelic drug is more accurately described as a modification of regular perception, and the subject is usually quite aware of the illusory and personal nature of their perceptions.

End Quote.

And since the change in my perception still exists, I doubt that it is an illusion.
But if you have done more of this stuff than me, I would love to hear how you comprehend their effects.

 

[Belz...]

Hey Belz, if the drugs cant make you hallucinate then you are not hallucinating

Obviously, since hallucinations are something that exists, you could be hallucinating even if the drugs aren't making you hallucinate. Also, I've known people who have hallucinated during acid trips. How can you be sure that people on drugs can always tell the difference between reality and illusion ? We can't even do it properly in our dreams.

Here is an extract from the Wikipedia page, since you have trouble negociating links.

One thing that most of these drugs do not do, despite the ingrained usage of the term hallucinogen, is to cause hallucinations.

I read that. Again, that did not answer my question. I think you have a problem negociating forums.

From your own link:

A typical "hallucination" induced by a psychedelic drug is more accurately described as a modification of regular perception, and the subject is usually quite aware of the illusory and personal nature of their perceptions.

USUALLY.

And since the change in my perception still exists, I doubt that it is an illusion.

Some people have delusions while completely sober, so that still doesn't settle the issue.

But if you have done more of this stuff than me, I would love to hear how you comprehend their effects.

I have done none of it. One of the thing that I do is to keep my lucidity at all times. You should try it.

 

[hellaeon]

280+ posts and what the hell where you trying to prove again buzz dullyear?

To quote a legendary coach in the Australian Football league - Dennis Pagan

"Argue with fools and soon no one can tell the difference"

I await your thorough goal shifting post.
Get a life.

Hellaeon

PS: go the crows!

 

[buzz lightyear]

Obviously, since hallucinations are something that exists, you could be hallucinating even if the drugs aren't making you hallucinate. Also, I've known people who have hallucinated during acid trips. How can you be sure that people on drugs can always tell the difference between reality and illusion ? We can't even do it properly in our dreams.

I have done none of it. One of the thing that I do is to keep my lucidity at all times. You should try it.

There is a remarkable thing called "EXPERIENCE", Belz.

This is where, when you do something many times and you begin to understand what you are experiencing.

An experienced user of ethnogens can controll their thought patterns sufficiently to remove hallucinations from the equation.
The use of ethnogens is ultimately to open the mind to "ALL" perception, not just the small amount that is permitted by the hypothalamus. Hallucinations are an unwanted side effect.

And as you have pointed out, you have no experience in this field, so I had better take hallaeon's advice of "Argue with fools and soon no one can tell the difference".

P.S Up the mighty Swans!

 

[Paul]

An experienced user of ethnogens

You have a drug that creates people?

can controll their thought patterns sufficiently to remove hallucinations from the equation.

On the assumption that you mean entheogens, the word is meant to replace hallucinogen and psychedelic and, according to those who invented the term:

In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens, but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens.​

So, if the point of an entheogen is to alter the consciousness of the user, the user cannot be sure they are in control of anything.

The use of ethnogens is ultimately to open the mind to "ALL" perception, not just the small amount that is permitted by the hypothalamus.

New age nonsense.

Hallucinations are an unwanted side effect.

Nope.

And as you have pointed out, you have no experience in this field

It doesn't appear you have much experience either, that or way too much.

 

[Tricky]

There is a remarkable thing called "EXPERIENCE", Belz.

This is where, when you do something many times and you begin to understand what you are experiencing.

How can you tell if youk are actually understanding it or if you have just settled into a convenient belief system? How do you test your "understanding".

An experienced user of ethnogens can controll their thought patterns sufficiently to remove hallucinations from the equation.

You have obviously not reached that point. You still believe in supernatural creatures.

The use of ethnogens is ultimately to open the mind to "ALL" perception, not just the small amount that is permitted by the hypothalamus. Hallucinations are an unwanted side effect.

How can you tell that without actually experienceing "ALL" perceptions? How do you know when you've seen them all? From what I've seen from your posts, there are many perceptions that you are totally unfamiliar with. What good does it do to be able to percieve supernatural things if you can't understand the real world?

By the way, I just got back from a vacation in the Appalachian mountains. There were some incredible geologic features there. Here's one that gave me pause. Do you think it is a giant fossilized onion?

 

[buzz lightyear]

How can you tell if youk are actually understanding it or if you have just settled into a convenient belief system? How do you test your "understanding".

You have obviously not reached that point. You still believe in supernatural creatures.

How can you tell that without actually experienceing "ALL" perceptions? How do you know when you've seen them all? From what I've seen from your posts, there are many perceptions that you are totally unfamiliar with. What good does it do to be able to percieve supernatural things if you can't understand the real world?

By the way, I just got back from a vacation in the Appalachian mountains. There were some incredible geologic features there. Here's one that gave me pause. Do you think it is a giant fossilized onion?

Howdy Tricky.

I have found the best way to check to test my "understanding " is to do the same experiment with another person present.
By discussing the event at a later date and comparing similarities in our experiences allowed me to get some constructive feedback.

To date the results have all been positive. Some better than I could have ever expected.

There is no way that I could be experiencing "all perceptions" as I think that this is an infinite set. But please inform me of those "perceptions" that you believe that I am unfamilar with.

And what parts of the "real world" do you think that I don't understand?

As for your "fossilised onion" pic.....very cool, particulaly the "nipple" at the bottom of the "cylinder".
It has got me stumped, fossilised trees?......too big.
So don't keep me in suspense.....what are they?

 

[termite37]

oh humm..

been thinking of what buzz said on here in this unusual discussion.

From what I know...

When everyone doubts everything which is unverifiable such as the paranormal, etc, its a illusion. The grand illusion of all time.

Isnt this what this forum is about? creating doubt for as many to see? Discussions of such things are good, but on the side, it creates doubt coming from skeptics.

odd enough, when everyone on the planet starts doubting and is directing their attention to science which holds definite answers to things, maybe something will come out of this?

who knows and who cares..

when I was a kid, I was fascinated with superman. superman could fly. I actually believed that I could fly as well too from having all those dreams about flying...

in a attempt to naturally fly, I realized that I couldnt. Years have gone by until I understood the laws of this earth. Man cant fly because of many reasons, which pinpoints to a impossibility that man cannot fly whatsoever without any aid... (such as planes).

When I got older, started working in industry, I realized then it could be possible for man to fly without any aid, but only in dreams...

dreams that arent no longer dreams, but in a weird set of reality. Imagination played its role.

Maybe this is a illusion? Maybe everything that we see, touch, feel, smell, sense.. etc.. is a illusion?...

there are some things on this earth which hasnt been fully explained yet. I think mysteries is what keeps us going... evolving our sense of knowlege.


ugggh.. i had to log out and log back in, there is a time delay thing on here that I have to retype all over again.. oh well..

anyways

little over 7 years ago, I went on a business trip to hongkong. This was a part of my job that I had to go overseas for. I lived there for alittle over a year.

I made some good friends over there. One day, a friend and I were talking about flying. He said he knows a chinese man who could make anyone fly in the air, without any aid or anything..

I didnt believe what he said and asked him to show me this man. He took me downtown "beijing route" (name of road) to this "magic shoppe" store where this chinese man was selling magic stuff in that store. This man is a good friend of my friend. He willingly showed me this "flying thing".

He told his sister to lay down outside the shoppe, where people were going by, and somehow he was able to levitate his sister off of the ground. About 5 feet in the air.

I was shocked and was in doubt. He went over his sisters body with a yardstick, showed me and to perhaps hundreds of people that day, who witnessed this levitation outside his shoppe, that there was nothing holding her up in the air.

I couldnt believe what I was seeing. I asked nicely to my friend to interpret for me in chinese language to allow me to analyze this amazing feat. He allowed me, but only me, noone else at the time, I slid under her sister while afloat in midair, looked around under her, I got out of the other side.. stood up, rubbed my hand against her legs, I felt some kind of a force going through her.

I had major goosebumps. Hair was sticking out on the edge of my neck. I couldnt believe it at all. Then the chinese man said to stand back to allow his sister to float back onto the ground.

Her sister was laughing.. she was wide awake the whole time. I just simply couldnt believe this...

I asked my friend to tell-ask the chinese man how he did it.

the chinese man responded that he has a unusual ability to levitate things or people with the power of his mind. The term "power of his mind" was a astonishment statement said to me.

This made me remove all doubts about flying, and in my mind, it is possible to fly, but by only the power of the mind. Somehow he was able to do this, and he did say that it is possible for anyone to do it once they learn how to manipulate the force of the mind.

Oh well.. I still couldnt figure out how he did it, a few days after the levitation demostration, I asked my friend to ask the chinese man to teach me how to do this.... all in a few days I was able to learn this levitation act..

He taught me how. I can now can only levitate small things such like paperclips or tacks but it only gives me a nasty migraine after attempting such a feat. I quit doing this in fear that I could develop some kind of tumor or something inside my head. Those migraines are terrible, beyond pain medicines that can prevent or reduce the pain.

Having to meditate for a hour to attempt this small thing is a very difficult task to do. I still wonder just how in the world this chinese man was able to do this.. to a person without all of those headaches?... its pretty amazing to know that at least there is something in this world that science could not be able to explain. I did think of telekinesis of some sort, but its not in that form.

odd as it goes, but I sure now believe that there are things in this world that people can do which defies so many logical facts of science. Aww well..

 

[buzz lightyear]

oh humm..
odd as it goes, but I sure now believe that there are things in this world that people can do which defies so many logical facts of science. Aww well..

That is one hell of a story, termite37.

If you ever felt like doing the "flip the paper clip" trick for these good old boys, they would probably "cross your palm with silver" to the tune of a "mill" US$.

If that is not to your liking, you can teach me the trick and Ill split you the cash...........OK.

 

[nathan]

You have a drug that creates people?

Isn't that usually called 'sex'?

*ducks*

 

[Paul]

Isn't that usually called 'sex'?

*ducks*

 

[termite37]

That is one hell of a story, termite37.

If you ever felt like doing the "flip the paper clip" trick for these good old boys, they would probably "cross your palm with silver" to the tune of a "mill" US$.

If that is not to your liking, you can teach me the trick and Ill split you the cash...........OK.

Yea I read about the million dollar challenge. I dont think I would be able to do it now because it has been a quite a few years since I did my last levitation thing.

actually the meditation thing is quite simple. All you have to do is to relax and think about a object and focus all of your energy into it. You would have to do it in a quiet surroundings, no distractions. Once you "tune" your energy into a object then you can get up and do it right away.

This type of physical energy output only lasts for a few minutes and it goes away. Then the terrible migraines comes into full effect. That was for me, I dont know about you or others, you might be able to do it better than I can.

I did watch David Copperfield once on tv how he was able to levitate a person off the stage and float into the audience. That was one hell of a trick but I do think he was doing the exact same thing the chinese man did with his sister.

 

[slyjoe]

Correct. The exact same thing is called MAGIC. The only difference is your Chinese man calls it something different to fool people.

 

[termite37]

Correct. The exact same thing is called MAGIC. The only difference is your Chinese man calls it something different to fool people.

yea thats what I thought. Maybe "Magic" has 2 different meanings? ..

1. Magic is tricks used by props.

2. Magic is real magic, totally unexplainable in the realms of hard science.

Or maybe its just a word which is more easily explainable so people use that "magic".

 

[Belz...]

There is a remarkable thing called "EXPERIENCE", Belz.

An experience I'd rather not have, thank you.

An experienced user of ethnogens can controll their thought patterns sufficiently to remove hallucinations from the equation.

Nonsense. When usiing hallucinogens your consciousness is altered. How can you possibly tell if you "remove" the hallucinations from the "equation" ?

You're just trying to convince yourself, Buzz.

And as you have pointed out, you have no experience in this field, so I had better take hallaeon's advice of "Argue with fools and soon no one can tell the difference".

I have no personal experience in this field. I have plenty of experience from other people. I don't need to try everything in order to know what it does. Otherwise I'd have to try arsenic.

 

[EHocking]

Yea I read about the million dollar challenge. I dont think I would be able to do it now because it has been a quite a few years since I did my last levitation thing.

actually the meditation thing is quite simple...

Riiiggghhhtttt. You have an ability that no one in the history of mankind can do, claim it's perfectly simple, and yet you claim to be out of practice at it? You DO realise that a simple demonstration of this would turn physics on it's head?

This type of physical energy output only lasts for a few minutes and it goes away. Then the terrible migraines comes into full effect. That was for me, I dont know about you or others, you might be able to do it better than I can.

There are many things I would NOT do for US$1MM, but putting up with a migraine is not one of them.

I did watch David Copperfield once on tv how he was able to levitate a person off the stage and float into the audience. That was one hell of a trick but I do think he was doing the exact same thing the chinese man did with his sister.

Ah - illusion. I thought you were serious!