Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Virgil
thanks, but are these 20% citizens, can they hold gov't positions, vote, etc

thanks
Virgil

They can and do. They vote, hold public office including the Knesset and the Isreali Supreme Court.

I find that a good on-line source of information about countries that I'm not familiar with is the CIA Factbook. They provide really basic information on geography, climate, demographics, and political organization.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

 

[Skeptic]

They can and do. They vote, hold public office including the Knesset and the Isreali Supreme Court.

In fact, most major parties (and the supreme court) have elected to have a minimal number of positions that must be filled by israeli Arabs, a bit like "affirmative action".

 

[varwoche]

They can and do. They vote, hold public office including the Knesset and the Isreali Supreme Court.

It is *because* Israel is democratic that I hold it to a higher standard, in the same way I hold US to higher standard.

Another reason I expect more of Israel is because my tax dollars support it.

It is up to civilized nations to act like civilized nations.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Like I said, Cleopatra is not a Real Jew (TM). I suppose that Cleon isn't either. Or Chomsky or Gush Shalom . There are plenty of other Jews out there, and I have met a few over the years. Perhaps you should just forward us a list of who the Real Jews (TM) are, so we can know exactly who to believe.

Always with the straw-man. Nobody is talking about who is or is not a Jew except you.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
People who live in a s**thole could not otherwise be described.

And speaking of straw-men, you sure are milking this one for mileage. What part of noting the condition of land says anything about its population?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by varwoche
It is *because* Israel is democratic that I hold it to a higher standard, in the same way I hold US to higher standard.

Another reason I expect more of Israel is because my tax dollars support it.

It is up to civilized nations to act like civilized nations.

It has long been a suspicion of mine that some anti-Israeli criticism is directed by a subtle anti-Arab racism. We expect civilized behavior from Israelis, and we should, but we should also expect civilized behavior from Arabs. To do otherwise is patronizing and racist.

 

[Skeptic]

It is up to civilized nations to act like civilized nations.

So you are saying the Palestinians (and presumably the non-democratic Arab world) are uncivilized barbarians? Or are you saying that they ARE civilized people, but just cannot be expected to ACT like civilized nations?

You can't have it both ways. If you think the Arabs are civilized people, demand they act that way. If you think they aren't, don't complain of "racism" if someome says that they are barbarians.

 

[Skeptic]

Actually, loudmouth, I've emailed Tom Tomorrow asking if it's okay to use his image and, if not, does he want me to pay a fee for its use. I'm still waiting for a reply.

If you're still waiting for a reply, you shouldn't use the image in the meantime, Mr. Manifesto. As you are using an image without permission, you are engage in copyright violation.

But of course the rules only apply to little people, not to great fighters against colonialist racism such as yourself.

 

[varwoche]

It has long been a suspicion of mine that some anti-Israeli criticism is directed by a subtle anti-Arab racism. We expect civilized behavior from Israelis, and we should, but we should also expect civilized behavior from Arabs. To do otherwise is patronizing and racist.

I have low expectations of corrupt dictatorships. This has nothing to do with race.

Because of substantial US monetary support for Israel, US is in position to influence behavoir, not to mention my interests as a taxpayer. I do not believe in my tax dollar supporting Israel, all the while new settlements being constructed.

None of which lets anyone off the hook for anything. I expect ALL parties to obey international law and abide by UN resolutions.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by varwoche
I have low expectations of corrupt dictatorships. This has nothing to do with race.

And if you have no expectations of the Palestinian-Arabs to advance a different form of government?

Originally posted by varwoche
Because of substantial US monetary support for Israel, US is in position to influence behavoir, not to mention my interests as a taxpayer. I do not believe in my tax dollar supporting Israel, all the while new settlements being constructed.

The Palestinian Authority also gets a substantial amount of foreign aid. Very little from the United States, but when you figure in the amount from the European Union, various Arab nations and private donations, it's comparable. How much do these contributors try to influence them for their money, and in which direction?

Originally posted by varwoche
None of which lets anyone off the hook for anything. I expect ALL parties to obey international law and abide by UN resolutions.

But do you criticize them equally when they don't?

 

[demon]

"it is up to civilized nations to act like civilized nations."

Yes, you would think so wouldn`t you.

You know, the Jews under the Third Reich did not do too much democracy or civilization.
Perhaps the Zionists could show a good example, by withdrawing all the illegal settlements, accepting the Real (ie 1948 nakba expellees) Right of Return, acknowledging the Dir Yassin massacre in Yad Vashem that is so close by (what a low Zionist trick) abolishing the Constitutional Law that prohibits parties opposing the Jewish character of the state, introduce an Israeli category for ID cards, perhaps even let Mordechaii Vanunu have civil rights .... others can go on.

Who was it again who called Israel "a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ little country"?

 

[Skeptic]

You know, the Jews under the Third Reich did not do too much democracy or civilization.

The difference is that the jews--even under the third Reich--had not demanded to kill every German alive, or claimed that those who kill German babies will go to heaven, or showed their vengence by shooting randomly at German civilians with the idea of killing as many women and children as possible.

Who was it again who called Israel "a s**tty little country"?

You.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

You're the baby who ran home to mommy and complained about my images, (which you will deny), and now you just admitted you have been using a copyrighted image and are emailing it's owner after I outed you. No wonder poeple lothe you here.

Actually, I emailed TT when Pyrrho was denied permission to use his MiB image. You're very quick to come to conclusions on little evidence. Explains a lot about you.

As for being a baby running to mommy, you're certainly fast and loose with other people's money. It's the webmaster who gets sued for copyright infringments, not you. So, you aren't brave or clever by posting copyrighted images without permission, links or attribution to the owners of those images, you're just an idiot. Something for you to think about.

edit attempt to spell 'phrryohhho' correctly, before giving up. Anyone got a mnemonic for this one?

 

[Mycroft]

Why even bother Mycroft? You will never convince a_u_p that 20% of Israelis are Arabs, you will never convice a_u_p that there are several Arab members of the Israeli Knesset, you will never convince a_u_p that palestinian suicide bombers target and blow up arab-owned businesses in Israel as indiscriminantly as jewish-owned businesses, ( At least 19 people, including children, were killed by a female suicide bomber ), you will never convince a_u_p that Arabs in Israel suffer as badly from the palestinian terror groups as jewish Israelis do like 21-year-old-Arab George Khoury who was murdered while jogging in jerusalem, and who's grandfather was also killed in an bombing by palestinian terrorists.

a_u_p is a propogandist shill;

Of course. It is precisely because he is a propagandist shill that I respond to him. If AUP was interested in learning and discussing anything about the situation, I would most likely just read and offer an occasional question or answer. There are forums where these issues are discussed, and while I read them I am not nearly so active. His interest is clearly not educational or informative, but evangelizing Israeli hatred, which he does through distortions, half-truths and lies. Because this is his goal, I feel it is important that someone offer corrections to blatant errors and give the other side.

 

[a_unique_person]

Of course. It is precisely because he is a propagandist shill that I respond to him. If AUP was interested in learning and discussing anything about the situation, I would most likely just read and offer an occasional question or answer. There are forums where these issues are discussed, and while I read them I am not nearly so active. His interest is clearly not educational or informative, but evangelizing Israeli hatred, which he does through distortions, half-truths and lies. Because this is his goal, I feel it is important that someone offer corrections to blatant errors and give the other side.

I have learned a hell of a lot from debates here. And the funny thing is, that for all the detail you can learn, it only ever confirms the fact that the Palestinians got a raw deal.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I have learned a hell of a lot from debates here. And the funny thing is, that for all the detail you can learn, it only ever confirms the fact that the Palestinians got a raw deal.

You have very narrow filters on the information you take in.

Nobody disputes that the Palestinian-Arabs are suffering, the dispute is over the cause and the cure.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I have learned a hell of a lot from debates here. And the funny thing is, that for all the detail you can learn, it only ever confirms the fact that the Palestinians got a raw deal.

1948 - UN Resolution 181 is passed the Arab response was the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel. (cause of Al-Nakba, AKA "The Palestinian Catastrophe")

1967 - Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched. President Nasser forced the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six Syrian MiGs. On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised on the borders of Israel. Approximately 250,000 troops more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel. The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions.



Yup, the Palestinians got a raw deal a_u_p and would not be occupied in the West Bank and Gaza today by Israel if it wasn't for the ACTIONS of Nasser, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. But alas, for you that is irrelevant, you will attempt to claim Israel "made" Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon attack twice and then you will attempt to claim Israel should not have fought back and just rolled over a died.....

 

[The Fool]

1948 - UN Resolution 181 is passed the Arab response was the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel. (cause of Al-Nakba, AKA "The Palestinian Catastrophe")

1967 - Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched. President Nasser forced the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six Syrian MiGs. On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised on the borders of Israel. Approximately 250,000 troops more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel. The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions.



Yup, the Palestinians got a raw deal a_u_p and would not be occupied in the West Bank and Gaza today by Israel if it wasn't for the ACTIONS of Nasser, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. But alas, for you that is irrelevant, you will attempt to claim Israel "made" Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon attack twice and then you will attempt to claim Israel should not have fought back and just rolled over a died.....

Any chance of you crediting the site that you chopped this stuff from?
hint: http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/1967sixdayswar.asp

your points are valid but your habit of cutting and pasting other peoples work uncredited smells of plagiarism...even if you do move some sentences and change the odd phrase.

 

[Hutch]

Well, nice to know that being away for 2 weeks in Phoenix didn't change anything. Took about 90 minutes to read this whole thread, still boggled at how many directions one argument can go and I do not have the time or energy to address all of them, but:

Always with the straw-man. Nobody is talking about who is or is not a Jew except you.

Well, Z-N did call Cleo a "Token Jew" several pages back, which I think would qualify, but Cleo, being a Lady, didn't respond to that little piece of prejudice. And except to pointing it out to you, neither will I.


Remember the title of the thread,anybody? "Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal." One question I have is how does this assist the peace process (in terms of a final negotiated plan)? It may be apparent that the US has never been the "honest broker" it has claimed to be, no matter if Democrat or Republican, but to state it as a fact does not seem, IMHO, to have been in our (the USA) best's interests. Comments on that, please?

Second, I am not sure that the precendent of allowing Israel to retain land taken in an Aggressive War is one we should be backing. And before Z-N, Rik, and Skeptic leap at my figurative throat, yes, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan had moved forces to the border, had acted in an aggressive and hostile manner, and given cause for Israel to fear an attack. But it WAS Israel that launched the attack in the end (and if Egypt was so set on war, why weren't it's aircraft better distributed and more patrols up?--I've always wondered if old Gamel Abdul was running a big bluff that backfired on him) and moved and occupied ground that no one ever considered to be part of an Israeli state, and now will apparently, if the US stance is validated, be allowed to keep it. It may be something that could not be changed, given the size of some of the settlements, but I still don't like the precedent.

Lastly, Z-N has gone on about Arafat and the P-A with something approaching monomania, but has never addressed the posters who have noted that Arafat is someone the Israelis have sustained and deliberately NOT assissinated over the past decade, when they most surely have had the ability to do so. Now why is that, Z-N, if he is the greatest roadblock to peace that ever was? After all, one laser guided HELLFIRE and.....

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Any chance of you crediting the site that you chopped this stuff from?
hint: http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/1967sixdayswar.asp

your points are valid but your habit of cutting and pasting other peoples work uncredited smells of plagiarism...even if you do move some sentences and change the odd phrase.

Oh, and before you accuse The Fool of 'running to Mommy', I'm the one who reported your post as being a potential copyright infrignement.

 

[Upchurch]

1948 - UN Resolution 181 is passed the Arab response was the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel. (cause of Al-Nakba, AKA "The Palestinian Catastrophe")

1967 - Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched. President Nasser forced the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six Syrian MiGs. On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised on the borders of Israel. Approximately 250,000 troops more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel. The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions.



Yup, the Palestinians got a raw deal a_u_p and would not be occupied in the West Bank and Gaza today by Israel if it wasn't for the ACTIONS of Nasser, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. But alas, for you that is irrelevant, you will attempt to claim Israel "made" Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon attack twice and then you will attempt to claim Israel should not have fought back and just rolled over a died.....

[modu]This post has been reported for copyright infringement.

zenith-nadir, please site the source of your information and, in the future, please make it a point to indicate when you are quoting a third party.[/modu]