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Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal
- Thread starter a_unique_person
- Start date
Do you want to start a libel war? All Jews are smelly and have big noses, so there. Your turn.
I suppose that your argument is that since ZN is saying (in effect) "all Palestinians are violent thugs", you saying "all jews are smelly and have big noses" is equivalent.
Well, there is a difference, however. While it is of course true that not all Palestinians are violent thugs, as it is the case that not all jews are smelly who have big noses, it is also the case that the Palestinian charter calls for israel's elimination; that Palestinian schoolchildren are taught from age 3 that killing jews is their mission; that the PA is a terrorist state whose purpose is to kill as many jews as possible; and so on. While there ARE peace-loving Palestinians, they seem to be a small minority with no influence at all.
To be a really equivalent comparison, you'd have to show us:
The schools where jewish children go to learn not to bathe;
the nose-lenghtening cosmetic surgery clinics paid for by jewish organizations;
the TV programs aimed at jews, by jews, on the "let's smell" topic;
the children's books where jewish kids are shown long-nosed people as the most amazing group on earth, and as an example to emulate;
the show trials where jews who happen to have short noses, or are rumored to bathe regularly, are executed for "collaboration with the enemy" as their smelly, long-nosed neighbors cheer in the streets;
the proud mother whose son just died from not bathing for three years saying she will raise her other jewish children to be just as smelly as he was;
and the halachtic (jewish law) text that claims that he who dies from filth and/or falling flat on his face from an overlong nose goes directly to heaven when he will be rewarded with 72 virgins (or 72 white raisins, depending on what translation you use of an ambigous Hebrew word in an ancient text).
THEN, perhaps, your comparison of ZN's "All Palestinians are violent" to your "All jews are smelly and have long noses" would be truly an analogy.
I suppose that your argument is that since ZN is saying (in effect) "all Palestinians are violent thugs", you saying "all jews are smelly and have big noses" is equivalent.
Well, there is a difference, however. While it is of course true that not all Palestinians are violent thugs, as it is the case that not all jews are smelly who have big noses, it is also the case that the Palestinian charter calls for israel's elimination; that Palestinian schoolchildren are taught from age 3 that killing jews is their mission; that the PA is a terrorist state whose purpose is to kill as many jews as possible; and so on. While there ARE peace-loving Palestinians, they seem to be a small minority with no influence at all.
To be a really equivalent comparison, you'd have to show us:
The schools where jewish children go to learn not to bathe;
the nose-lenghtening cosmetic surgery clinics paid for by jewish organizations;
the TV programs aimed at jews, by jews, on the "let's smell" topic;
the children's books where jewish kids are shown long-nosed people as the most amazing group on earth, and as an example to emulate;
the show trials where jews who happen to have short noses, or are rumored to bathe regularly, are executed for "collaboration with the enemy" as their smelly, long-nosed neighbors cheer in the streets;
the proud mother whose son just died from not bathing for three years saying she will raise her other jewish children to be just as smelly as he was;
and the halachtic (jewish law) text that claims that he who dies from filth and/or falling flat on his face from an overlong nose goes directly to heaven when he will be rewarded with 72 virgins (or 72 white raisins, depending on what translation you use of an ambigous Hebrew word in an ancient text).
THEN, perhaps, your comparison of ZN's "All Palestinians are violent" to your "All jews are smelly and have long noses" would be truly an analogy.
zenith-nadir
Illuminator
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- Feb 3, 2004
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Mr Manifesto said:
I have no need to appeal to Linda. Remove all photos if you wish Pyrrho, in fact I recommend it. And while we are at it I would like to "report Mr Manifesto's avatar for possible copyright infringements", since it is STOLEN from thismodernworld.com and I know Mr Manifesto does not own thismodernworld.com nor the copyrighted artwork he has infringed to use as his Avatar.Pyrrho said:
I have never said that all palestinians are thugs, in fact I go out of my way to differenciate between Arafat, the Palestinian Authority, the terror groups and non-combatant civilians. I complain more than Demon, a_u_p, the fool or cleopatra combined about how palestinian terror groups hide in palestinian civilian areas and use them for cover and concealment, AKA "human shields". So please, do not put words in my mouth. Thanks.
I have never said that all palestinians are thugs,
I didn't say you said that. I said that AUP is interpreting the photos you posted as you saying that.
Or at least that's what I meant to say... I can see how what I wrote can be misunderstood.
I didn't say you said that. I said that AUP is interpreting the photos you posted as you saying that.
Or at least that's what I meant to say... I can see how what I wrote can be misunderstood.
TillEulenspiegel
Master Poster
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- May 30, 2003
- Messages
- 2,302
I see it's the same ole circus, but I have just two observations.
1) The US has lost any credibility as an "honest" broker in this matter as far as most of the world and , altho no one's done a poll , probably %50 of Americans ( divided mostly across party lines) agree. The position of the Bush administration , presented as an equitable starting point for future negotiations., has taken is tantamount to recognition of Sharon's position being the De-Facto rule of law on the ground.
The declarations that the positions held by the US vis-a-Vie Israel and the Palestinian question had not shifted is a lie , a distortion and sickening, not necessarily the position itself but the acquiescence to Sharon and the presentation that the position of the US has not changed. What just happened in Washington , in case anyone blinked was the equivalent of a US President declaring that "Taiwan is a province of China ...we've always said so." This is not the case in both examples we have enjoyed a "strategic ambiguity" that served to maintain our leverage with both sides and our appearance as an honest broker.
2) The acceptance by the religious right stems from their belief that the second coming will transpire when Israel is "whole". What will the occur is that all the "Christians" will goto heaven ( the disappearance )and the unrighteous will lament a 1000 years ( the tribulation). Now If you think I'm being disingenuous research it your self. The punch line is that Jews will never see god cuz their heathans..that might upset a person in a personal context but hey if you can mold US policy by letting them believe in their own ridicules religious hog wash what matter? The Israelis know this and I'm sure they chuckle in private. George W. Bush is one of these people. What? Your shocked by the idea of foreign policy driven by religion??? No , Virginia . There is no sanity clause.
OK time to go back to eating each other.
1) The US has lost any credibility as an "honest" broker in this matter as far as most of the world and , altho no one's done a poll , probably %50 of Americans ( divided mostly across party lines) agree. The position of the Bush administration , presented as an equitable starting point for future negotiations., has taken is tantamount to recognition of Sharon's position being the De-Facto rule of law on the ground.
The declarations that the positions held by the US vis-a-Vie Israel and the Palestinian question had not shifted is a lie , a distortion and sickening, not necessarily the position itself but the acquiescence to Sharon and the presentation that the position of the US has not changed. What just happened in Washington , in case anyone blinked was the equivalent of a US President declaring that "Taiwan is a province of China ...we've always said so." This is not the case in both examples we have enjoyed a "strategic ambiguity" that served to maintain our leverage with both sides and our appearance as an honest broker.
2) The acceptance by the religious right stems from their belief that the second coming will transpire when Israel is "whole". What will the occur is that all the "Christians" will goto heaven ( the disappearance )and the unrighteous will lament a 1000 years ( the tribulation). Now If you think I'm being disingenuous research it your self. The punch line is that Jews will never see god cuz their heathans..that might upset a person in a personal context but hey if you can mold US policy by letting them believe in their own ridicules religious hog wash what matter? The Israelis know this and I'm sure they chuckle in private. George W. Bush is one of these people. What? Your shocked by the idea of foreign policy driven by religion??? No , Virginia . There is no sanity clause.
OK time to go back to eating each other.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
So the state of play is
Sharon and Dubya have agreed to a deal. The rest of the world has not been a party to that deal. If Dubya cares to case his mind back a few months, (maybe a little difficult for him), perhaps he should consider the result last time he acted unilaterally against the wishes of the rest of the world.
The Palestinians are not going to disappear. They will be a living testimony to Israels inhumanity. Sharon has not won a victory 'for all eternity'. He was achieved a monumental act of hubris.
Israel will now be personally responsible for the Palestinian people for as long as his 'eternity' lasts. He will be creating a '1984' style dictatorship, with spies and cameras monitoring people and subjagating them. Does Israel really want this legacy?
Sharon and Dubya have agreed to a deal. The rest of the world has not been a party to that deal. If Dubya cares to case his mind back a few months, (maybe a little difficult for him), perhaps he should consider the result last time he acted unilaterally against the wishes of the rest of the world.
The Palestinians are not going to disappear. They will be a living testimony to Israels inhumanity. Sharon has not won a victory 'for all eternity'. He was achieved a monumental act of hubris.
Israel will now be personally responsible for the Palestinian people for as long as his 'eternity' lasts. He will be creating a '1984' style dictatorship, with spies and cameras monitoring people and subjagating them. Does Israel really want this legacy?
Sharon:
"My plan is tough on the Palestinians. A mortal blow. In a unilateral process there is no Palestinian state. This situation could go on for many years."
Sharon:
"They (the Palestinians) have a better understanding of the significance of (Bush's) letter than most Israelis. I said that we were going to deal them a lethal blow, and they were dealt a lethal blow."
After the "new possibilities and opportunities for the Road Map" bulls**t we heard in Washington this week, someone should ambush Blair and Bush with these quotes so we could see them squirm.
"My plan is tough on the Palestinians. A mortal blow. In a unilateral process there is no Palestinian state. This situation could go on for many years."
Sharon:
"They (the Palestinians) have a better understanding of the significance of (Bush's) letter than most Israelis. I said that we were going to deal them a lethal blow, and they were dealt a lethal blow."
After the "new possibilities and opportunities for the Road Map" bulls**t we heard in Washington this week, someone should ambush Blair and Bush with these quotes so we could see them squirm.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
I don't think you'll be seeing Bush taking any more questions before the election. Then after he loses, he won't be taking any more then either.
"Yes, and he also always seems to making these emphatic gestures with both hands. I don't know about you but it gets on my nerves."
Tell me about it.
Apparently he`s had a lot of PR/spin training etc...in his early days I`ve heard he had a penchant for using the old index finger to emphasise a point but they thought it was a bit too patronizing and authoritarian...now he does that weird kind of pointing with a clenched fist and the thumb...like the old Roman emperors where meant to have used deciding the fate of gladiators ect in the Coliseum.
Yeah, that`s much more reassuring eh?
Tell me about it.
Apparently he`s had a lot of PR/spin training etc...in his early days I`ve heard he had a penchant for using the old index finger to emphasise a point but they thought it was a bit too patronizing and authoritarian...now he does that weird kind of pointing with a clenched fist and the thumb...like the old Roman emperors where meant to have used deciding the fate of gladiators ect in the Coliseum.
Yeah, that`s much more reassuring eh?
Mr Manifesto
Illuminator
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2003
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- 4,815
zenith-nadir said:
Actually, loudmouth, I've emailed Tom Tomorrow asking if it's okay to use his image and, if not, does he want me to pay a fee for its use. I'm still waiting for a reply. But checking your facts before shooting your mouth off has never been your strong suit, has it?
epepke
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,264
E.J.Armstrong said:
Except for the third, which is a valid gripe, these are too inspecific.
How, exactly, does a normal democratic society treat non-citizens? Is it written somewhere? Are there some normal democratic societies in the region we can compare too? Is the US a normal democratic society? I think the US treats Palestinian immigrants pretty well, but five minutes in here, and I get the impression that the US is responsible for all evil. So what is this normal democratc society that treats Palestinians well? Do they have a similar track record with respect to Jews?
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Virgil said:
It is all a very confused issue. There are Arabs and Xians living in Israel proper. There are also Arabs and Xians living in the 'occupied' territories. What is there status as people? I don't know. As far as I can tell, they don't even have a nationality.
Look here
http://www.countryreports.org/
Try to find Palestine there. It doesn't exist, yet millions of people live there.
Israel won't have them. They cannot become Israeli citizens. Many them want nothing more than to go to the homes they had before all the wars began. They are not allowed to. They never will be allowed to. Israel does not want them.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Look at the list of members of the UN
http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html
No Palestine.
They are not citizens of any country. If they not fight to become a country, they are ignored. If they fight, they are only crushed even harder. They cannot become Israeli citizens.
http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html
No Palestine.
They are not citizens of any country. If they not fight to become a country, they are ignored. If they fight, they are only crushed even harder. They cannot become Israeli citizens.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Virgil said:
Israel has a population that is about 20% non-Jewish. Most of these are Muslim Arab-Israelis. These are not the same people that are commonly called Palestinians, who are Arabs who live in the dispited territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Yes, you and I reach different conclusions, which is why when you say you follow his actions I ask if you do so through the Israeli press. If not, which sources of information do you use?
Touché. Were you going to address the larger point of characterizing a non-action as aggression while ignoring the actual action of withdrawing settlements?
I would agree with that. I would also add they are not the only ones in this conflict in need of diplomats.
Well, if you had put forth facts instead of just linking to their home page, I may have addressed them.
Since you didn’t, I’ll just comment that the issue of NGOs becoming polarized politically is an issue that should concern us all.http://www.ngo-monitor.org/issues/hrw.htm
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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It's less confusing for people willing to do some reading to actually understand the situation.
Pecause there is no country called Palestine. There could be one in the future, but for now to find these area in Countryreports.org you would have to look at Gaza Strip or West Bank.