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Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

Ok, denominations, but deformations would be closer to the mark.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Mr Clingford
Would you show me in Christianity, Bible verses etc, where sacrifices are made to appease god because it is my understanding that they were not in Christianity.
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Leviticus 1:1-17 has the sacrifice and the offering being used to appease god.
King James Version
Leviticus 1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.


As for the chrisitans believing Jesus was a sacrifice, that’s covered in the old standby John 3:16. Although you’ll want to read all of John, also note that what is in John doesn’t agree with what is in some other parts of the NT.

Ossai
 
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Ossai said:
Mr Clingford

Leviticus 1:1-17 has the sacrifice and the offering being used to appease god.
King James Version
Leviticus 1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.


As for the chrisitans believing Jesus was a sacrifice, that’s covered in the old standby John 3:16. Although you’ll want to read all of John, also note that what is in John doesn’t agree with what is in some other parts of the NT.

Ossai
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Thank you, Ossai. I had a read of the first 7 chapters of Leviticus. The word used appears to be 'atonement', not 'appeasement'. The Hebrew for atonement, 'kipper', appears to refer to a removal of sin, a wiping it away.

Yes, there are a variety of ideas in the NT for the atonement. John 3:16 has no idea of a sacrifice for the appeasing of God.

One question to make sure we are on the same page; what do you understanding by the phrase "appeasing God"?
 
RandFan said:
No. I'm trying to demonstrate that the bible is a very poor source for morality or wisdom.
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I disagree whole heartedly. God gave of lots of examples to go by and learn from.

I have often heard it said if nothing else a person can always be used as a bad example. People sin and God forgives, but He doesn't always remove the consequence of our actions. How can we argue with a Holy God who is righteous?

RandFan said:
Based on this scripture and the one in Psalms there are 3 options.
  1. God doesn't exist.
  2. God is not moral, just or decent.
  3. God does exist but the Bible, in many ways including this one, is not a source for morality or god's wisdom.
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* Yes He does.
* Yes He is.
* We know God through His Word!
 
And in the same vein, I offer the follwooing evidences.

Abraham Lincoln was killed on orders of the Emeror of Bethselamin 5.

JFK was actually a Russian spy and had to be killed rather than exposed.

No planes were harmed in the making of 9/11 The Hoax.

Neil Armstrong's moon walk was recorded at the Jackson Five's parents house in Tutukaka.

And you can believe it all 100%, because I just told you.

It's true!
 
Mr Clingford said:
Thank you, Ossai. I had a read of the first 7 chapters of Leviticus. The word used appears to be 'atonement', not 'appeasement'. The Hebrew for atonement, 'kipper', appears to refer to a removal of sin, a wiping it away.

Yes, there are a variety of ideas in the NT for the atonement. John 3:16 has no idea of a sacrifice for the appeasing of God.

One question to make sure we are on the same page; what do you understanding by the phrase "appeasing God"?
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Dem Catlicks aren't stupid, are dey, Paddy?

They've gone and solved the question of Leviticus 1 like this:

A holocaust... That is, a whole burnt offering (olokauston), so called, because the whole victim was consumed with fire; and given in such manner to God as wholly to evaporate, as it were, for his honour and glory; without having any part of it reserved for the use of man. The other sacrifices in the Old Testament were either offerings for sin, or peace offerings: and these latter again were either offered in thanksgiving for blessings received; or by way of prayer for new favours or graces. So that sacrifices were then offered to God for four different ends or intentions, answerable to the different obligations which man has to God: 1. By way of adoration, homage, praise, and glory due to his divine majesty. 2. By way of thanksgiving for all benefits received from him. 3. By way of confessing and craving pardon for sins. 4. By way of prayer and petition for grace and relief in all necessities. In the New Law we have but one sacrifice, viz., that of the body and blood of Christ: but this one sacrifice of the New Testament perfectly answers all these four ends; and both priest and people, as often as it is celebrated, ought to join in offering it up for these four ends.

Sniffing cremated lamb. Beats coke, I guess...
 
Mr Clingford
One question to make sure we are on the same page; what do you understanding by the phrase "appeasing God"?
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To pacify god. People were given laws by god but don’t follow them exactly so in order to get back on god’s good side a sacrifice is made.

The Hebrew for atonement, 'kipper', appears to refer to a removal of sin, a wiping it away.
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The atonement/appeasement of an animal sacrifice only lasted a set time (I think it was one year). After that time, another sacrifice was required.

Yes, there are a variety of ideas in the NT for the atonement. John 3:16 has no idea of a sacrifice for the appeasing of God.
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New International version
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God gave, i.e. provided, his son to be the sacrifice.

Check the link The Atheist for the official theological view.

Ossai
 
Ossai said:
New International version
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God gave, i.e. provided, his son to be the sacrifice.

Check the link The Atheist for the official theological view.
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Problem is, this is reversed. Gods don't sacrifice to men.
 
Ossai said:
Mr Clingford
To pacify god. People were given laws by god but don’t follow them exactly so in order to get back on god’s good side a sacrifice is made.
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Thanks; 'pacify', that's how I understand appease. Would you explain your reasoning that takes Lev 1, for instance, v. 9 "It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord" and concludes that it is appeasing God because I don't see that it does.

Ossai said:
The atonement/appeasement of an animal sacrifice only lasted a set time (I think it was one year). After that time, another sacrifice was required.
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Atonement, 'kipper' means a wiping away of sin, not 'appeasing God'.


Ossai said:
New International version
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God gave, i.e. provided, his son to be the sacrifice.

Check the link The Atheist for the official theological view.

Ossai
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But the verse does not mention sacrifice, and especially not sacrifice to appease the anger of God.

I had a read of The Atheist's link, with the Catholic view, but don't see that it supports your argument.
 
Could you please use the standard transcription of the Hebrew i.e. Kippur, as in Yom Kippur. If you keep going on about smoked herrings, I'm going to have to stop reading this thread until after I eaten some. Yum, kipper!

Thanks:)
 
kurious_kathy said:
I disagree whole heartedly. God gave of lots of examples to go by and learn from.

I have often heard it said if nothing else a person can always be used as a bad example. People sin and God forgives, but He doesn't always remove the consequence of our actions. How can we argue with a Holy God who is righteous?
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I don't see much righteousness in genocide, slavery, infantacide, incest, rape, etc.

* Yes He does.
* Yes He is.
* We know God through His Word!
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We know through the bible that god is arbitrary, capricious and petulant. The proof is there if you are honest enough to read it.
 
Tricky
Problem is, this is reversed. Gods don't sacrifice to men.
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Correct, but man didn't have the right kind of sacrifice so God provided the perfect/ultimate sacrifice, Jesus.

But the verse does not mention sacrifice, and especially not sacrifice to appease the anger of God.

I had a read of The Atheist's link, with the Catholic view, but don't see that it supports your argument.
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Ok, from your perspective lay out the general tenets of Christianity.


RandFan
We know through the bible that god is arbitrary, capricious and petulant. The proof is there if you are honest enough to read it.
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So how do you explain the character and teachings of Jesus, then?
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Jesus was also, but to a much lesser extent, arbitrary, capricious and petulant.
Fig tree, anointing oils, dust your feet off, etc.

Ossai
 
Ossai said:
Ok, from your perspective lay out the general tenets of Christianity.
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God created this universe, is very proud of it and loves his creation. People are amazing things, but to be able to love, to give out, is also to be able to hate, to be selfish. We get things wrong and screw things up. God as Jesus overcomes all this 'going wrongness', the process starting, but not finishing, with Jesus's life and death and life. Something like that. I will expand on my vague take on the Atonement if you like, but it does not involve the death of Jesus acting as a sacrifice to appease an angry God, an orthodox position within Christianity. It is more Fundamentalist type Christians who go on about that approach - it appears to work for them but not for a lot of Christians who see things differently.

Ossai said:
Jesus was also, but to a much lesser extent, arbitrary, capricious and petulant.
Fig tree, anointing oils, dust your feet off, etc.

Ossai
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Jesus wasn't nice, wasn't staying meek and mild in the manger, disturbing no-one and saying' "Don't mind me, get on with things, being selfish and hurting others is fine with me". He said, 'Stop being so bloody self-centred because you actually get more out of life by looking outwards, to others, rather than trying to look after Number 1 all the time'. We struggle and fail to combine 'God is Love' and 'God doesn't like us hurting each other and wishes us not to', generally seeing one or the other.
 
Tricky said:
Problem is, this is reversed. Gods don't sacrifice to men.
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It is my understanding that John 3:16's meaning is that God sacrificed for men/Man, on the behalf of men/Man, not to men/Man.

Also handy, in Atheists' discussion of OT sacrifices and reasons, is that whole ritual is done away with. Good deal, if you are a lamb, as how you are merely slaughtered for a meal, not for a ritual. Doubtless all of Lambdom gives thanks for this. :D

DR
 
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