Brexit: the referendum

[lobosrul]

Ahem.....

Sorry Ireland.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Interestingly the French now want English out of the EU as well. I hadn't thought of it before but it kind of makes sense. How interesting will it be to see this shift in the language of the EU. If French became the official language it would certainly change the way kids in the US take languages in high school. Right now, many people take Spanish because it seems more practical.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...h-language-brexit_us_576ede1fe4b0dbb1bbbac730

This kind of thing seems to be what many talk about when they think of people being ill-informed about the world.

They talk to one nutjob - no cancel that - see a tweet from one nutjob saying something stupid and then try to make a story out of it (which they even debunk in their own subheading!)

Relying on media to understand other countries is maybe why people everywhere in the world are so ignorant of the reality. Of course we see it more starkly when others comment on things we are more intimately familiar with.

Still it is still quite funny to listen to Americans talking about football...sorry soccer... like they understand it

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Sorry Ireland.

And Malta.

 

[truethat]

Before you shout about how ignorant people are, you might want to consider this from a different thread:

I don't see what's stupid about that. I am making a specific point about using a Eurocentric Map versus a Pacific Centric Map. Anyone who looks at the Map I posted or one like it will understand what I mean.

I'm not specifically talking about the "Pacific Ocean." But if that's all you could understand from what I wrote I apologize for not breaking it down more specifically. Most people I have spoken to have an easy time seeing my point.

Here is the map again. In other words all the countries that branch out when you look at the world THIS WAY instead of using a map created by Europeans that doesn't reflect the world and only set up for their interests, are innovator or important players.

If you look at the map this way you will see that the world has changed and this perspective of the map reflects the reality of innovation and world power in the world today.

Eurocentric maps are based on European self importance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pac...h54MKHULZBZUQyjcIOg&ei=2zF0V7zXIaHPjwTCspeoCQ

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't see what's stupid about that. I am making a specific point about using a Eurocentric Map versus a Pacific Centric Map. Anyone who looks at the Map I posted or one like it will understand what I mean.

I'm not specifically talking about the "Pacific Ocean." But if that's all you could understand from what I wrote I apologize for not breaking it down more specifically. Most people I have spoken to have an easy time seeing my point.

Here is the map again. In other words all the countries that branch out when you look at the world THIS WAY instead of using a map created by Europeans that doesn't reflect the world and only set up for their interests, are innovator or important players.

If you look at the map this way you will see that the world has changed and this perspective of the map reflects the reality of innovation and world power in the world today.

Eurocentric maps are based on European self importance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pac...h54MKHULZBZUQyjcIOg&ei=2zF0V7zXIaHPjwTCspeoCQ

Can you give us a rundown of all this innovation that is coming out of Pakistan and the other countries you mention vs Europe and the UK? Then let's adjust for population and wealth and see where we lie to get a fair picture.

 

[truethat]

This kind of thing seems to be what many talk about when they think of people being ill-informed about the world.

They talk to one nutjob - no cancel that - see a tweet from one nutjob saying something stupid and then try to make a story out of it (which they even debunk in their own subheading!)

Relying on media to understand other countries is maybe why people everywhere in the world are so ignorant of the reality. Of course we see it more starkly when others comment on things we are more intimately familiar with.

Still it is still quite funny to listen to Americans talking about football...sorry soccer... like they understand it

The idea is interesting though. It's not like the French have never tried to push for this before. LOL (I agree with you about just grabbing quotes though. I'm pretty good at weeding out junk, but have to rely on you guys for Europe. PS I have utterly given up on football. I went through two World Cups with my son and tried my best to like it. The sound the crowd makes is like something out of a zombie apocalypse. It's just creepy to me. But I tried!)

 

[lobosrul]

And Malta.

Sorry Malta. Even though Wiki says more of you speak Maltese than English

 

[truethat]

Can you give us a rundown of all this innovation that is coming out of Pakistan and the other countries you mention vs Europe and the UK? Then let's adjust for population and wealth and see where we lie to get a fair picture.

Look at China, Japan, the West Coast of the United States first. Then in Pakistan and India we can't deny talent. You can cherry pick Pakistan out of this if you want. But take a look at economic leaders. I don't think you will find a person in the US who doesn't tip their hat to Japan as far as innovation goes. We look at the technology associated with the internet and how that has exploded in ways that have changed the world. Phones and products built in China.

This is development. Basically when I look at Great Britain it's like the difference between owning and developing a business and managing your household budget. Managing a budget is never innovative because it doesn't really grow.

Here is a list of the world economic powers. The US will be moving down the list soon. Brazil and India will be moving up. Germany is innovative they are moving up. Sorry but Great Britain is not innovative. They build off what others do. IMO. There's a difference.

That's why I keep pointing out education. And it's interesting. Because lobosrul mentioned Pharma. That is the ONE industry where I see England doing very well.

#10. India – GDP $2 trillion

India's booming economy is on the rise, with an average growth rate of 7% annually since 1997. India's major industries are agriculture, and services –especially in information technology and the outsourcing of business from other countries.

#9. Italy – GDP $2.1 trillion

Italy's very diversified economy relies on its industrial sectors for his high per capita GDP. Italy also benefits from membership in several groups of the wealthiest economoies, including the Group of Eight (G8) and European Union (EU).

#8. Russia – GDP $2.2 trillion

After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia made big changes to its economy. It privatized most of its industries and made the economy more globally integrated and market-oriented. These reforms have led, in part, to Russia's rise on the list of largest economies. Of course the fact that they are the leading oil producer in the world doesn't hurt.

#7. United Kingdom – GDP $2.4 trillion

The UK comes in at No. 7 in largest economies due to their healthy agriculture, electronics and manufacturing industries. England has long been considered a leading financial and political power in Europe.

#6. Brazil – GDP $2.5 trillion

Brazil is South America's largest economy due to the country's strength in agriculture, mining, manufacturing, and service. Brazil is also the second biggest economy in the western hemisphere.

#5. France – GDP $2.7 trillion

France has long been one of the most developed and wealthiest economies in the world, and this year clocks in at 5th. More than 30 of the world's 500 biggest companies are French and the country is considered one of the best places to locate the headquarters of Fortune Global 500 companies.

#4. Germany – GDP $3.6 trillion

Germany has Europe's largest national economy, and is considered to be the second largest exporter in the world. Germany's economic strengths lie in automotive, electric equipment. Pharmaceuticals, and computers, among others

#3. Japan – GDP $ 5.1 trillion

Japan has long been regarded as one of the most technologically advanced economies in the world with its major contributions in the industrial and electronic sectors. Japan also benefits from robust business in automotive, semiconductors, and processed foods, among other industries. While Japan's agricultural industry is fairly small, it is the most profitable in the world.

#2. China – GDP $9.0 trillion

China's shift to a market-oriented economy has buoyed its growth and rise to one of the largest economies in the world. China is the fastest growing economy with average annual growth rates of 10%. The Chinese are the largest exporters in the world. If China stays on pace and current trends in other economies continue, China will overtake the US as the world's top economy in a decade, if not a few years sooner.

#1. USA – GDP $16.2 trillion

The United States has been the world's largest economy for at least a century. One third of the world's millionaires and 40% of the worlds billionaires live in the United States, making it the wealthiest nation in the world. The diversity of the US's economy as well as its reputation for superior products helps the economy remain the strongest. The US is the largest manufacturer in the world, producing a fifth of the entire world's manufacturing output.

The US's major industries include petroleum, mining, food processing, aerospace, and information technology. The U.S. is also considered to be the most influential and largest financial markets in the world. The US's economic growth rate is 2.2% annually.

 

[jimbob]

I don't see what's stupid about that. I am making a specific point about using a Eurocentric Map versus a Pacific Centric Map. Anyone who looks at the Map I posted or one like it will understand what I mean.

I'm not specifically talking about the "Pacific Ocean." But if that's all you could understand from what I wrote I apologize for not breaking it down more specifically. Most people I have spoken to have an easy time seeing my point.

Here is the map again. In other words all the countries that branch out when you look at the world THIS WAY instead of using a map created by Europeans that doesn't reflect the world and only set up for their interests, are innovator or important players.

If you look at the map this way you will see that the world has changed and this perspective of the map reflects the reality of innovation and world power in the world today.

Eurocentric maps are based on European self importance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pac...h54MKHULZBZUQyjcIOg&ei=2zF0V7zXIaHPjwTCspeoCQ

You are half an ocean out

It's sillier than describing New York as a Pacific city, and about on a par with describing Madagascar as being in the Atlantic.

ETA: Madagascar is an island off the East coast of Africa and thus is in the Pacific Indian Ocean

 

[truethat]

You are half an ocean out

It's sillier than describing New York as a Pacific city, and about on a par with describing Madagascar as being in the Atlantic.

ETA: Madagascar is an island off the East coast of Africa and thus is in the Pacific Indian Ocean

Again, I'm so sorry this is confusing for you to understand. I am not talking about the PACIFIC OCEAN specifically.

I am talking about a Pacific Centered Map. (See that link up here I put for you, click on it.)

I'm sorry that I worded it in a way that made you think I meant all these countries were around the Pacific Ocean. I didn't think I had to clarify for two reasons.

A. I thought I was talking to an adult

B. I posted a picture of the map for those confused to see.

The point I am making is that when you look at a Pacific Centric Map (meaning a map that has the Pacific Ocean in the middle) instead of a Eurocentric map (meaning a map with the Atlantic Ocean in the middle,) you can see that all the countries around that CENTER are the true world leaders in innovation.

If this still doesn't explain what I mean to you, I'm really sorry but maybe if you show the map to your mom, she can explain what I mean.

I hope you can see it this time. Just look at the Map, put your finger in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and then just look at at all the countries around that center.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/NewZealandEmbassies-PacificCentric.png

Good luck!

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Look at China, Japan, the West Coast of the United States first. Then in Pakistan and India we can't deny talent. You can cherry pick Pakistan out of this if you want. But take a look at economic leaders. I don't think you will find a person in the US who doesn't tip their hat to Japan as far as innovation goes. We look at the technology associated with the internet and how that has exploded in ways that have changed the world. Phones and products built in China.

This is development. Basically when I look at Great Britain it's like the difference between owning and developing a business and managing your household budget. Managing a budget is never innovative because it doesn't really grow.

Here is a list of the world economic powers. The US will be moving down the list soon. Brazil and India will be moving up. Germany is innovative they are moving up. Sorry but Great Britain is not innovative. They build off what others do. IMO. There's a difference.

That's why I keep pointing out education. And it's interesting. Because lobosrul mentioned Pharma. That is the ONE industry where I see England doing very well.

But you are mixing up economic success, production and innovation there.

Apple products are built in China but they aren't innovated there - to take one example. Most Chinese 'innovation' is just low-cost copying.

If you are talking about product development then the US tends to be the leader but that's also because they have the $ to throw at it and some of the worlds biggest companies.

In terms of pure research though I'd be willing to bet the UK pulls its weight and more along with places like the Netherlands. Where they tend to struggle is in commercializing their research.

You do have something of a point when you talk about 'junk degrees' but the more salient point is maybe that a lot of the UK's best and brightest are drawn into finance rather than technical pursuits because of the $$$. It's not very glamorous to study science or engineering here unlike in China or India where technology and science are highly regarded.

There are lots of industries where the UK is highly innovative - The UK is pretty much the centre of the high end automotive engineering world for example - but they tend to be pretty niche.

 

[truethat]

I could throw the UK a bone in research. That's probably something. But is it innovated or tax payer funded vanity projects for "studies?" You could say China isn't innovative but I'd disagree, we send the work there because its cheaper. It's cheaper because they have streamlined over the years better and faster ways to produce it. It's not quality of course and quality has it's place (Hello France, Hello Switzerland) but ignoring the innovation in industrial production is disingenous.

 

[CapelDodger]

Everyone is Italian by wishful thinking.

They wish.

 

[Planigale]

Considering one major plank of that was the UK remaining in the EU, only for England and Wales essentially dragging Scotland out of it a scant couple of years later, that vote is rightly now considered inconclusive north of the border.

This is the problem with referenda.

Conversely if there had been a vote for independence, then the oil price crashed would that be grounds for a repeat referendum because people voted for Scottish independence on the grounds that there would be lots of oil money?

FWIW I thought that there should have been a two stage referendum. One on the principle then one on the detail. (Both for independence and Brexit). As it is one votes on the principle and it is a bit like gambling, you just have to take what comes. Devomax or not, that was not in the referendum, oil price up or down, not in the referendum, £350,000,000 for the NHS not what the referendum asked.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I could throw the UK a bone in research. That's probably something. But is it innovated or tax payer funded vanity projects for "studies?" You could say China isn't innovative but I'd disagree, we send the work there because its cheaper. It's cheaper because they have streamlined over the years better and faster ways to produce it. It's not quality of course and quality has it's place (Hello France, Hello Switzerland) but ignoring the innovation in industrial production is disingenous.

Health and safety free sweatshops does not equal innovation.

Stealing IP does not equal innovation

I'm out of date on innovations in production but most of them were done by the Japanese decades ago and automation etc is not being innovated in China.

 

[Planigale]

Hmmm. Circumstances have changed somewhat, wouldn't you say?

If I had been a Scottish voter in the last 2 referendums I would think it only fair to have another go at indyref.

See response above.

 

[truethat]

Health and safety free sweatshops does not equal innovation.

Stealing IP does not equal innovation

I'm out of date on innovations in production but most of them were done by the Japanese decades ago and automation etc is not being innovated in China.

No it doesn't. But figuring out how to streamline your factor machines to stamp out the cell phones in 20 minutes instead of 40 is innovation. I do understand what you mean about health and safety. But that's not the point.

It sounds a bit of sour grapiness going on.

 

[Craig B]

This is the problem with referenda.

Conversely if there had been a vote for independence, then the oil price crashed would that be grounds for a repeat referendum because people voted for Scottish independence on the grounds that there would be lots of oil money?

FWIW I thought that there should have been a two stage referendum. One on the principle then one on the detail. (Both for independence and Brexit). As it is one votes on the principle and it is a bit like gambling, you just have to take what comes. Devomax or not, that was not in the referendum, oil price up or down, not in the referendum, £350,000,000 for the NHS not what the referendum asked.

Utter nonsense. Fluctuations in commodity prices are not the same thing as constitutional changes. The constitutional arrangements offered to referendum voters by the No side have been substantially changed.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

This is the problem with referenda.

Conversely if there had been a vote for independence, then the oil price crashed would that be grounds for a repeat referendum because people voted for Scottish independence on the grounds that there would be lots of oil money?

FWIW I thought that there should have been a two stage referendum. One on the principle then one on the detail. (Both for independence and Brexit). As it is one votes on the principle and it is a bit like gambling, you just have to take what comes. Devomax or not, that was not in the referendum, oil price up or down, not in the referendum, £350,000,000 for the NHS not what the referendum asked.

If there's enough force for any change eventually it will happen if it can happen I think.

Referenda are a bit weird as its pretty obvious they don't actually resolve anything but somehow we've decided they are democratic and fair.

If Indyref had been Yes and then the confirmation Ref was no what next? another stage 1 ref in 2 years? or do you just go back to stage 2 and ask 'how about now?' Just keep asking till you get the answer you want.

Until something irreversible happens like scotland leaving the UK or the UK actually leaving the EU the debate merely continues.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No it doesn't. But figuring out how to streamline your factor machines to stamp out the cell phones in 20 minutes instead of 40 is innovation. I do understand what you mean about health and safety. But that's not the point.

It sounds a bit of sour grapiness going on.

I'll grant you there isn't a lot of innovation in cell phone manufacturing techniques going on in the UK AFAIK.

But I'm willing to bet the brains behind the ones in China are probably European or American or Korean or Japanese - i.e. they make the machines that do the work faster.