Brexit: Now What? Part IV

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You can't see that in regards to a UK wide referendum about something that determines the future of the entire UK it is the "will of the people" if a majority of the UK population vote in one particular way?

Really?

You can't see that anyone could disagree?

Not that you disagree with them, but that you can't even imagine them having a different view?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You seem to be side stepping the actual point.

Someone apparently doesn't think it is the "will of the people" because a UK wide referendum had different results in different parts of the country.

I really cannot see how you can make that claim - no matter what subset of the UK you use - whether that be Scotland, Wales, NI, Birmingham, the NW England, Shetland or any other demarcation, the UK referendum returned leave as a result.

Can you explain how you get to a majority result not being the "will of the people" because in some places more people voted to remain than leave?

If you want to argue that overall less that 50% of the population eligible to vote voted to leave I can understand the point of saying it wasn't the will of the people, even though in the end if you don't bother to vote you really are excluding yourself from being counted.

8 foxes voting to eat 4 chickens is not the 'will of the farmyard'

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you want to argue that overall less that 50% of the population eligible to vote voted to leave I can understand the point of saying it wasn't the will of the people, even though in the end if you don't bother to vote you really are excluding yourself from being counted.

Depends on how much you need to discount the results of a vote, that reasons to disregard all kinds of other non binding referendums, like puerto rico statehood, or catalonian independence.

I would think the massive disinformation campaign combined with the tight results would be a good reason to disregard a non binding referendum as well.

 

[Darat]

You can't see that anyone could disagree?

Not that you disagree with them, but that you can't even imagine them having a different view?

I sincerely can't see how you can make the claim that it wasn't the "will of the people" when the entire UK had the opportunity to vote and a majority voted to leave?

If the result of a national referendum isn't the "will of the people" I really can't see what ever could be?

 

[Darat]

8 foxes voting to eat 4 chickens is not the 'will of the farmyard'

You've now totally lost me.

 

[Darat]

Depends on how much you need to discount the results of a vote, that reasons to disregard all kinds of other non binding referendums, like puerto rico statehood, or catalonian independence.

I would think the massive disinformation campaign combined with the tight results would be a good reason to disregard a non binding referendum as well.

That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.

 

[The Don]

You've now totally lost me.

In this tale the English and Welsh are the rapacious foxes and the Scots (and Gibraltarians and Northern Irish ?) are the poor defenceless chickens. The foxes voted for Brexit and the poor chickens are being dragged along.

Personally I think it's a very partial view of the situation and I'm not sure what the alternative should have been. Perhaps the Scottish Remain vote should have trumped the overall Leave vote (which would personally make me happy) or perhaps it should have triggered Scottish independence followed immediately by Scotland joining the EU.

I get why the Scottish electorate aren't happy - I'm not happy; and I can see that as a nation they feel that they should have sovereignty over this but AFAIK it's not one of the devolved powers.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.

There are all kinds of reasons to do that, it wasn't a legally binding vote after all. And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave. It didn't exactly give the hardest brexit of all crowd the mandate to do much.

 

[The Don]

Some Brexit good news for a change:

In the year after the UK narrowly voted to exit the European Union, there was a small but significant increase in the population's feeling of wellbeing, official statistics show.

The improvements in areas such as life satisfaction and happiness were seen only in England, however. Elsewhere, the rates flatlined.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41893598

It could be that the English, inspired by the prospect of being free of the yoke of EU oppression really do have their spirits soaring - even if the end position isn't quite 100% clear.

An alternative view is that the public are responding to good economic news like low unemployment and an economy which is growing, albeit slowly and are happy regardless of Brexit or even despite Brexit.

Anxiety is up, but not by a statistically significant amount.

 

[The Don]

There are all kinds of reasons to do that, it wasn't a legally binding vote after all. And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave. It didn't exactly give the hardest brexit of all crowd the mandate to do much.

That's my view too, but both of the major parties have now decided that they are pro-Brexit presumably to hang onto the 52% who voted leave (it'll be interesting to see whether there'll be blowback from the 48% - I'm not sure whether I could vote for a pro-Brexit party next time around) and the Conservative Party with their DUP bolstered parliamentary majority seem intent on as hard a Brexit as feasibly possible

I'd guess that a lot of Britons are simply resigned to the consequences and simply want to get it over with. It will be interesting to see how public sentiment changes if there is a Brexit triggered recession with hundreds of thousands of services and manufacturing jobs going to the EU and a fall off in inward investment as companies look to continue to invest in the EU.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You've now totally lost me.

If you can't understand the metaphor then indeed you cannot understand what I am talking about. Presumably the foxes also cannot comprehend why the chickens don't respect the will of the farmyard.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm not sure what the alternative should have been.

A different question and one that would not be and hasn't been solved by insisting that there isn't even an issue and refusing to even countenance that others may see things differently.

Even if the outcome ended up being the same the government would have done well to display empathy, engage with the devolved parliament on exploring compromises or options and moderate their language.

Insisting Brexit is 'The Will of The People(TM)' is simply antagonistic and tone deaf at best.

 

[Craig B]

Indeed you can probably find any kind of breakdown of percentages of leave v. remain you want by arbitrarily deciding to use a subset of the UK population.

I'm sure you could certainly find anything you want by arbitrarily deciding to use a subset of the population. But residents of Scotland are a very special subset. They are the subset that in 2014 was told that the only way they could ensure continued membership of the EU was by voting No in the Indyref. This they did.

Then they were asked if they wanted to remain in the EU. Every electoral division of the country said yes. But they are to be taken out against their will and contrary to the assurances given to them.

The subset of the UK population which has had these experiences comprises the population of Scotland, not anywhere else. That subset is not an "arbitrary" subset of the UK.

 

[Tolls]

Even if the outcome ended up being the same the government would have done well to display empathy, engage with the devolved parliament on exploring compromises or options and moderate their language..

Well, you do know who's currently running the show I take it?


I mean, just look at Boris' frankly Trump-esque cock up re: that woman in Iran.

 

[Explorer]

That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.

The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.

 

[ceptimus]

And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave.

This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

​

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."

 

[quadraginta]

The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.

Is this a settled matter? I thought there remained some controversy about the U.K. being able to simply say. "Whoops, we changed our mind. Sorry for all the fuss.", and just go back to the status quo ante with the E.U..

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's my view too, but both of the major parties have now decided that they are pro-Brexit presumably to hang onto the 52% who voted leave (it'll be interesting to see whether there'll be blowback from the 48% - I'm not sure whether I could vote for a pro-Brexit party next time around) and the Conservative Party with their DUP bolstered parliamentary majority seem intent on as hard a Brexit as feasibly possible

I'd guess that a lot of Britons are simply resigned to the consequences and simply want to get it over with. It will be interesting to see how public sentiment changes if there is a Brexit triggered recession with hundreds of thousands of services and manufacturing jobs going to the EU and a fall off in inward investment as companies look to continue to invest in the EU.

Look on the bright side, you will become the place people emigrate from instead of immigrate too. So that is a win for brexit.

 

[ponderingturtle]

This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

​

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."

And of course all the lies told about what could happen that their proponents walked back the day after the vote doesn't matter at all. Why else did all the people who organized and campaigned for the brexit run away in terror as soon as they won the vote with lies?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is this a settled matter? I thought there remained some controversy about the U.K. being able to simply say. "Whoops, we changed our mind. Sorry for all the fuss.", and just go back to the status quo ante with the E.U..

I think that the EU would have to agree, and they might well want certain concessions to remain. Going to the euro would seem a basic start.