Brexit: Now What? Part III

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Klimax said:
Flattened? That's flattering to May...



Sorry, but you cannot pin Greece on Merkel. There is almost no way to deal with crazy like Greece where they cheated for several decades on accounting. As for migration I would love to hear your proposal, because I doubt it would be any better
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Time for our resident apologist for the Greek Government to appear and scream about how unfair it is that Greece is being "punished" for it long term irresponsible behavior.
He also seems to reject the idea that it's a bad idea for a government to live beyond it's means.
 
dudalb said:
Time for our resident apologist for the Greek Government to appear and scream about how unfair it is that Greece is being "punished" for it long term irresponsible behavior.
He also seems to reject the idea that it's a bad idea for a government to live beyond it's means.
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Just "living beyond means" wouldn't land Greece in such big problems. Also it would be very clearly visible to all.
 
Giz said:
I don't know. Merkel has made some amazingly bad calls over the years (Greece, migration etc)... it's not a straight-up competent/incompetent match up.
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At best the only thing you can pin on her is that she underestimated the inherent xenophobia of some of the population. But she is right that economically and for the long term viability of the country , germany needs immigration. You may not know it, but germany has (last time I checked) a negative generation renewal, meaning that without immigration the population not only drops in number, but due to birth curve get older. And that is a bad thing to happen to a country long term.
 
Worm said:
Just a note that, to my reading at least, those details are reversed.

Boudica wasn't punished for a failed rebellion; Boudica led a rebellion, at least partly, as a result of her punishment. The 'punishment' was more of an attack due to the fact that her husband (The King) had left his kingdom jointly to his daughters and the Roman emperor when he died, which was not really well received by the Emperor (Claudius).
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You are technically not incorrect. He was Nerō Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.

But most people just call him Nero.
 
Klimax said:
Sorry, but you cannot pin Greece on Merkel. There is almost no way to deal with crazy like Greece where they cheated for several decades on accounting. As for migration I would love to hear your proposal, because I doubt it would be any better
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Migration is actually easy to think up, but harder to put in practice on a short notice. Vet the migrants in their current country (Turkey/Greece in this case), ensure they have useful skills and aren't terrorists to the best of your ability, then organize them visas for the country that wants them (Germany or whomever) and organize transport to there in a proper and humane manner, in special buses, trains, ships or even planes. At the same time you also strictly deny entrance and asylum to all who want to jump the process and deport them immediately. You can come in the proper way or not at all.

The main problem with this approach is that you need half a year to a year to set it up and it'll need at least another three years to be effective and efficient. Alas, it's the only approach that works - you capture most of terrorists and extremists in camps and deny them entrance (or even send some on a permanent vacation to Cuba), you educate the immigrants what to do, what to expect, what not to do and what not to expect. Thus you also soothe the justified fears of terrorism and irrational fears of xenophobia and you already begin the process of integration. You also don't put the established and much beloved achievements such as Shengen agreement in jeopardy.

The approach is neither unique nor unprecedented, all I did is described the way USA chooses refugees for resettlement, which is really what the migration crisis was all about.

McHrozni
 
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3point14 said:
Oh christ.

Shouldn't Merkel have one hand tied behind her back or something? In any meeting of minds with Merkel on one side an May on the other, our poor excuse for a leader is just going to get flattened.
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The phrase "duel of wits with an unarmed opponent" does come to mind.
 
Aepervius said:
At best the only thing you can pin on her is that she underestimated the inherent xenophobia of some of the population. But she is right that economically and for the long term viability of the country , germany needs immigration. You may not know it, but germany has (last time I checked) a negative generation renewal, meaning that without immigration the population not only drops in number, but due to birth curve get older. And that is a bad thing to happen to a country long term.
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What I don't understand is why Germany doesn't seek other sources of immigrants it needs. I'm sure you can find 1-2 million Ukrainians who would be happy to live and work in Germany. Ukrainians should be more acceptable to German xenophobes than Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot.

If nothing else the issue of terrorism is taken away.

McHrozni
 
Darat said:
The CEO said it will have 10s of staff.
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The article says about 100 out of just over 1000. This implies approximately 10% of Lloyds business will leave UK for Belgium. This implies a loss of about 100 million pounds in taxes for the UK yearly from the company, plus whatever those employees paid.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
What I don't understand is why Germany doesn't seek other sources of immigrants it needs. I'm sure you can find 1-2 million Ukrainians who would be happy to live and work in Germany. Ukrainians should be more acceptable to German xenophobes than Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot.

If nothing else the issue of terrorism is taken away.

McHrozni
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"Whatnot"? Delightful. "German xenophobes" do not have an admirable history in their treatment of Ukrainians, who were therefore not always in the past "happy to live and work in Germany". Compulsion was often applied.

The German xenophobes never conquered Syrian or Iraqi whatnots, though they fought a campaign in the territory of the Libyan whatnots.
 
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Craig B said:
"Whatnot"? Delightful. "German xenophobes" do not have an admirable history in their treatment of Ukrainians, who were therefore not always in the past "happy to live and work in Germany". Compulsion was often applied.

The German xenophobes never conquered Syrian or Iraqi whatnots, though they fought a campaign in the territory of the Libyan whatnots.
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Yeah, yeah, and this still applies to a tiny minority of German xenophobes. Many more would be willing to accept Ukrainians, Belorussians, Russians and the like, as long as they aren't brown and/or Muslim.

If Germany needs immigrants it might as well seek to get those that will be more acceptable. This includes the deplorable vote. While I can understand why you would favor Syrians over Ukrainians, there is no excuse to favor Egyptians over Ukrainians.

McHrozni
 
If they're anything like British ones and their views on Poles and Romanians, there would be little difference.
 
McHrozni said:
Yeah, yeah, and this still applies to a tiny minority of German xenophobes. Many more would be willing to accept Ukrainians, Belorussians, Russians and the like, as long as they aren't brown and/or Muslim.

If Germany needs immigrants it might as well seek to get those that will be more acceptable. This includes the deplorable vote. While I can understand why you would favor Syrians over Ukrainians, there is no excuse to favor Egyptians over Ukrainians.

McHrozni
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I do not favour Syrians over Ukrainians. I do not pander to racists by adapting my attitude to various nationalities "and whatnot" in order to accommodate the prejudices of xenophobes. What an idea!

Will this refugee be acceptable to German racists? I mean, could she pass for Aryan? No. Sling her out then. That's the only way to deal with xenophobes. We might as well let in only people they're willing to accept.

That was Hitler's view as well. You're not breaking new ground here. From my link.
One special category was that of young women recruited to act as nannies; Hitler argued that many women would like to have children, and many of them were restricted by the lack of domestic help. (This was one of many efforts made to promote the birth rate.) Since the nannies would be in close company with German children as well as in a position where they might be sexually exploited, they were required to be suitable for Germanization.​
 
Darat said:
The CEO said it will have 10s of staff.
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McHrozni said:
The article says about 100 out of just over 1000. This implies approximately 10% of Lloyds business will leave UK for Belgium. This implies a loss of about 100 million pounds in taxes for the UK yearly from the company, plus whatever those employees paid.

McHrozni
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BBC story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441035

"A subsidiary office will be opened in Brussels with the intention that it will be operational for the January 1 renewal season in 2019," it said.

The company's continental business generates 11% of its premiums.
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....whether additional business is funnelled through the Belgian subsidiary will become clear in due course.

These are only incremental losses of business but those losses tend to add up and there's also the risk that growth will happen in the subsidiary rather than head office.
 
Craig B said:
I do not favour Syrians over Ukrainians. I do not pander to racists by adapting my attitude to various nationalities "and whatnot" in order to accommodate the prejudices of xenophobes. What an idea!
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You can either do it or suffer from the backlash. Check the reason why we have this topic open.

That was Hitler's view as well.
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So?

It was also Hitlers' view that the government should sometimes act to jump-start the economy to get it out of recession and restart the growth, should we abandon the practice of an occasional stimulus because Hitler believed in it?

McHrozni
 
The Don said:
Yesterday, the UK was talking about linking security co-operation with Europe to receiving an advantageous trade deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...emns-mays-blackmail-over-security-cooperation

How to (not) make friends and (not) influence people :rolleyes:
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I don't know ... it could be catastrophic levels of incompetence at work ... or it could be ever more desperate attempts to scuttle the process. She is literately trying to bully the EU into kneeling before the mighty UK. This is either because she feels confident she can win, or else she is putting the UK in a situation where victory is impossible, but backtracking to remain in EU may remain as a viable option.

The amount of political capital she already expended on making sure hard Brexit goes through means this would end her career, but she would take down the main Brexit leaders with her, and disenchant and discredit the movement.

It's either a cunning, suicidal ploy to destroy Brexit once for all, or a hopeless, incompetent and just as suicidal attempt at quitting the EU. I'm really not sure.

McHrozni
 
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