Archie Gemmill Goal
Banned
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 8,324
Great. I agree. Now how have you arrived at that 55bn. What commitments do the EU have to non members? I think you might be about 54.99999999 bn short....
- Status
Great. I agree. Now how have you arrived at that 55bn. What commitments do the EU have to non members? I think you might be about 54.99999999 bn short....
Archie Gemmill Goal
Banned
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 8,324
No the 350m was not stupidly taken out of thin air. It was based on numbers that were well understood and demonstrably wrong.
Ceptimus claims the same can be said of the EU number. Let's see what evidence he can provide of significant commitments to the UK from the EU.
Archie Gemmill Goal
Banned
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 8,324
Which regulation or agreement are you referring to that requires this and how much roughly are we talking about?
You first. What regulation or agreement were the EU referring to when they came up with their €60 billion figure?
I do hope this doesn't giver our xenophobic friend a heart attack:
We will need EU migrants for years, admits Davis
So Brexit promises score to date:
£350 million a week for public services-FALSE
The same or better trading terms with the EU-FALSE
An end to EU immigration-FALSE
The simple fact is unless wages in those industries rise dramatically or (even more)draconian measures are applied to compel British citizens to take those jobs the immigrants are going to be a permanent fixture.
It seems every promise made to get people to vote leave has been broken and yet May and Davis still have the gall to demand Remainers shut up and 'respect the will of the people'.
We will need EU migrants for years, admits Davis
So Brexit promises score to date:
£350 million a week for public services-FALSE
The same or better trading terms with the EU-FALSE
An end to EU immigration-FALSE
The simple fact is unless wages in those industries rise dramatically or (even more)draconian measures are applied to compel British citizens to take those jobs the immigrants are going to be a permanent fixture.
It seems every promise made to get people to vote leave has been broken and yet May and Davis still have the gall to demand Remainers shut up and 'respect the will of the people'.
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2010
- Messages
- 87,476
Do we charge the USA, Australia, Canada, India, China etc for their nationals residing in the UK?
Regarding any payment made to the EU by the UK after leaving.
Obviously this won't be the ludicrous €60 billion figure but whatever smaller sum is eventually agreed.
Whatever the figure is, remember that this amount is not due to us leaving - rather it is due to us being an EU member in the first place. We would have had to pay this same amount if we'd stayed in - and of course the payments would have gone on for as long as we remained a member and no doubt there would be other costs piled on too.
It's a sign of the hopeless inefficiency of the EU that it is able to talk about these eye-watering amounts of money as though they are nothing. The sooner we are out, then the sooner we stop throwing money into this black hole.
Obviously this won't be the ludicrous €60 billion figure but whatever smaller sum is eventually agreed.
Whatever the figure is, remember that this amount is not due to us leaving - rather it is due to us being an EU member in the first place. We would have had to pay this same amount if we'd stayed in - and of course the payments would have gone on for as long as we remained a member and no doubt there would be other costs piled on too.
It's a sign of the hopeless inefficiency of the EU that it is able to talk about these eye-watering amounts of money as though they are nothing. The sooner we are out, then the sooner we stop throwing money into this black hole.
Last edited:
If they live and work in the UK (for more than 6 months per year) aren't they supposed to pay their taxes in the UK?
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2010
- Messages
- 87,476
We send a bill to the country concerned?
It depends on the country. We have reciprocal agreements for healthcare with some countries and not with others. The official short answer is, "Yes sometimes."
In reality, all patients get emergency treatment anyway.
The hospital staff should then, in theory, find out whether or not the patient is eligible for free treatment and if not should arrange to bill either the patient's home country or where there is no agreement in place for that country the patient him/herself.
Most often the doctors and staff involved don't have the time or the inclination to be bothered with all the paperwork, or don't know the rules themselves, or maybe have no means of discovering the patient's nationality - assuming the patient doesn't want to tell them.
Since the demographics of the EU citizens living in the UK and the UK citizens living in the EU are fairly well known, the likely costs can be worked out in advance and negotiated as part of the Brexit deal. The EU have floated the idea by talking about part of the €60 billion being to pay the pensions of EU officials. The pension cost for an individual can't be known in advance any more than an individual's lifetime health care costs - but when there are large numbers of such pensioners/patients, statistics allow us to make pretty accurate estimates of the likely total costs.
I am never convinced that it would save the NHS money to attempt to recover costs from other EU countries. To guarantee that you are catching the non UK citizens, you would need to check anyone who isn't registered with the organisation or referred by another NHS organisation. To do this, you would need to instigate a fairly onerous bureaucracy for a few edge cases. Sometimes, the medical care would be brief - a single GP appointment of ten minutes. Recovering the cost of that grom a partner government would involve far more man-hours of work (possibly including more by the GP) so would do nothing except increase waste.
I have yet to see any information that the overhead of maintaining such a system would recover more money than it costs.
I have yet to see any information that the overhead of maintaining such a system would recover more money than it costs.
Lothian
should be banned
We could do that. What is stopping us is the pre referendum promise that we could have all the benefits of EU membership without having to allow free movement of people, all the while saving £350m a week.
Do you still think that is achievable?
Why? EU made no promise to the migrants living in UK, nor is there a legal obligation to provide free health care to anyone. Furthermore, they pay taxes in UK to begin with.
I'm sure it is prepared to the full extent of the capabilities of the cabinet.
Which is to say it's about as prepared as the Italian fleet was prepared for Taranto raid.
McHrozni
In other words, any reductions of this number would be a concession of EU to UK. Now, I'm all for doing some of those, in exchange for other concessions from UK.
This is one thing Brexit side has never actually answered. What is UK prepared to give in return for receiving these privileges? Not holding its breath until it turns blue?
McHrozni
Two somewhat alarmist articles on effects of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-doctors-may-leave-uk-after-brexit-survey-bma
The BMA’s findings are based on a survey it undertook of 1,193 EEA doctors working in the UK. When asked if they were thinking about leaving the UK following last year’s referendum vote, 500 (42%) said yes, 309 (26%) said no, 278 (23%) were unsure, while the other 106 did not answer.
About 10% of all doctors in NHS are from other EEA countries. UK stands to lose up to 5% of all it's medical doctors as a result of Brexit. The result will probably be nowhere near this number, but these losses are hard to replace, and it takes decades to do so in any case.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ve-uk-eu-article-50-report-kpmg-a7594606.html
One third of manufacturers intend to move some operations out of UK. Manufacturing represents about 16% of UK GDP and 12% of employment. A loss of one tenth would already be difficult to replace, and would disproportionately hit those that voted for Brexit.
McHrozni
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-doctors-may-leave-uk-after-brexit-survey-bma
The BMA’s findings are based on a survey it undertook of 1,193 EEA doctors working in the UK. When asked if they were thinking about leaving the UK following last year’s referendum vote, 500 (42%) said yes, 309 (26%) said no, 278 (23%) were unsure, while the other 106 did not answer.
About 10% of all doctors in NHS are from other EEA countries. UK stands to lose up to 5% of all it's medical doctors as a result of Brexit. The result will probably be nowhere near this number, but these losses are hard to replace, and it takes decades to do so in any case.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ve-uk-eu-article-50-report-kpmg-a7594606.html
One third of manufacturers intend to move some operations out of UK. Manufacturing represents about 16% of UK GDP and 12% of employment. A loss of one tenth would already be difficult to replace, and would disproportionately hit those that voted for Brexit.
McHrozni
That's OK, post Brexit there'll be no money to pay for the NHS so having fewer doctors will help make the necessary cost cuts
As any Brexiteer would point out, this is just "expert opinion" and as such can be safely ignored. Of course if it actually happens then it's an act of treason and it's the fault of horrible foreigners seeking to punish the UK for Brexit and we're better off without those jobs anyway
That's OK, post Brexit there'll be no money to pay for the NHS so having fewer doctors will help make the necessary cost cuts
Hehe
Assuming, of course, the extra work for all the other doctors will not result in substantial overtime payments, increasing the overall costs. But this is probably far too complex for an average Brexiteer/ard.
As any Brexiteer would point out, this is just "expert opinion" and as such can be safely ignored. Of course if it actually happens then it's an act of treason and it's the fault of horrible foreigners seeking to punish the UK for Brexit and we're better off without those jobs anyway
This does sum up the average 'reasoning' in favor of Brexit rather nicely.
McHrozni
Re: health costs.
Fully a third of UK nationals residing in Europe are retired. They have far more expensive health costs than the EU nationals residing in the UK, who are almost entirely working families.
You can see this in the disparity of charges, whereby some £580 million was handed over to cover pensioner health costs in the EU, whereas we only claimed some £12 million to cover pensioners residing in the UK.
Put simply, ceptimus' health costs are a nonsense.
Edit: Linky.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/text/141216w0001.htm
Fully a third of UK nationals residing in Europe are retired. They have far more expensive health costs than the EU nationals residing in the UK, who are almost entirely working families.
You can see this in the disparity of charges, whereby some £580 million was handed over to cover pensioner health costs in the EU, whereas we only claimed some £12 million to cover pensioners residing in the UK.
Put simply, ceptimus' health costs are a nonsense.
Edit: Linky.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/text/141216w0001.htm
- Status