Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[Vixen]

Why do you consider the rich countries in the EU to be the losers? If that were the case, Brexiters would have a point, and the UK would actually be better off on its own. In fact, I believe the only reason the EU exists at all is because the rich countries consider it a net gain. It's not like its their little charity organisation.

...Or it could be the federalists want it to be some kind of superpower with a certain country in charge.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Alright so we've got a perpetual Godwin device and rewriting multilateral treaties with crayons as potential solutions to this issue.

Sorry to say from across the pond, we've got our own issues just now and it looks like you're all SOL and JWF.

 

[Vixen]

I figure there are two sorts of people. The well informed and those in favour of Brexit.

It's entirely possible to go from the latter to the former, but It's pretty much impossible to remove knowledge from a brain, so there aren't going to be any people who suddenly, in the face of all evidence, decide that Brexit is a good idea after all.

Whilst it is true many Brexiteers are ignorant dullards, it doesn't logically follow that therefor Remainers are ipso facto well-informed.

There are plenty of remainers with a naive view of Europe as a benign club where everybody is chums with everyone else. Unfortunately, there are the unscrupulous on the Remainer side as well.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

During the occupation, the German authorities orchestrated a programme of "Germanisation" of the country, suppressing non-German languages and customs and conscripting Luxembourgers into the Wehrmacht, which led to extensive resistance, culminating in a general strike in August 1942 against conscription.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_in_World_War_II

Right now you can stop being "sceptical" that Luxembourgers were conscripted. Now perhaps you could provide evidence that Juncker's father was an officer or withdraw the claim.

 

[Vixen]

The EU takes from the rich and gives to the poor, just like Robin Hood. Strange, though. I have never heard anyone calling Robin Hood greedy for it.

Of course, the EU is nothing like Robin Hood. It can't steal from the rich. It only gets what the rich agree to give. The EU gets british tax money because the british parliament agreed that the EU should be given that money.

When we say rich country we mean a country with lots of economic activity; a country with high gross domestic product, GDP. The more economic activity a country already has, the more it will benefit from measures that make that activity easier. That's obvious, right?

So it's unsurprising that the rich countries would agree to give more to keep the single market going. If they didn't, the poorer countries might decide, possibly correctly, that they were being exploited and leave.

Germany will not leave the EU because it feels it is paying too much. It will simply negotiate lower payments. It's much more likely that one of the net recipients leaves when or if the rich pay less. If the rich countries don't agree to higher payments then leaving is the only thing the poor countries can do. If the poor countries demand more money, the rich can just say no.


I think you are in a unique position to tell us how European leaders could ensure that. Your arguments are clearly the result of misinformation. What can be done about that?

Hell will freeze over before Germany leaves the EU.

 

[fagin]

Germany may have had conscription as a desperate measure towards the end of the war, but the Brits who were extremely short of personnel never did bring in conscription AFAIAA for WWII so I am sceptical of Juncker's claim his father 'was forced to join the Wehrmacht'.

OK maybe he was, but to go on to pass officers exams - if my source was correct that he was an officer (and of course it is not referenced so we do not know - mean he committed himself.

You just show how little you know and how much you suck out of your ass.

Not hard to find.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/liv...e-lives/yourcountry/overview/conscriptionww2/

"Conscription: the Second World War
Limited conscription of men
During the spring of 1939 the deteriorating international situation forced the British government under Neville Chamberlain to consider preparations for a possible war against Nazi Germany.

Plans for limited conscription applying to single men aged between 20 and 22 were given parliamentary approval in the Military Training Act in May 1939. This required men to undertake six months’ military training, and some 240,000 registered for service.

Full conscription of men
On the day Britain declared war on Germany, 3 September 1939, Parliament immediately passed a more wide-reaching measure.

The National Service (Armed Forces) Act imposed conscription on all males aged between 18 and 41 who had to register for service. Those medically unfit were exempted, as were others in key industries and jobs such as baking, farming, medicine, and engineering.

Conscientious objectors had to appear before a tribunal to argue their reasons for refusing to join-up. If their cases were not dismissed, they were granted one of several categories of exemption, and were given non-combatant jobs.

Conscription helped greatly to increase the number of men in active service during the first year of the war.

Conscription of women
In December 1941 Parliament passed a second National Service Act. It widened the scope of conscription still further by making all unmarried women and all childless widows between the ages of 20 and 30 liable to call-up.

Men were now required to do some form of National Service up to the age of 60, which included military service for those under 51. The main reason was that there were not enough men volunteering for police and civilian defence work, or women for the auxiliary units of the armed forces."

It's not rocket science.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Germany may have had conscription as a desperate measure towards the end of the war, but the Brits who were extremely short of personnel never did bring in conscription AFAIAA for WWII so I am sceptical of Juncker's claim his father 'was forced to join the Wehrmacht'.

OK maybe he was, but to go on to pass officers exams - if my source was correct that he was an officer (and of course it is not referenced so we do not know - mean he committed himself.

Wrong


Men aged 20 to 23 were required to register on 21 October 1939
By the end of 1939 more than 1.5 million men had been conscripted to join the British armed forces.

 

[Vixen]

A chaotic No-Deal Brexit would cost the EU billions too. You can't pretend that's none of their business; it's literally their business. Yet for some reason you imagine Juncker is just meddling for the LOLs. Why should he not wish to prevent EU businesses suffering losses unnecessarily?

Juncker is not the avuncular sot he likes to present himself as. He has been in politics for many years and is famed for his Machiavellian skills.

I wouldn't take him at face value if I were you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Of course some men weren't conscripted.
Some 'essential' occupations were 'Reserved' and exempt from conscription.

Others were conscripted to work in Coal and Ironstone Mines rather than serve in the military.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Wrong


Men aged 20 to 23 were required to register on 21 October 1939
By the end of 1939 more than 1.5 million men had been conscripted to join the British armed forces.

Expect to be told you're wrong because she 'read it somewhere'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has accused the UK and US political classes of "disrespecting" the public by questioning the Brexit referendum and Donald Trump's election.

"They don't want to recognise [Mr Trump's] victory. That's disrespect of voters," he said.

"The same in Britain: Brexit happened, but no-one wants to implement it."

Russia's leader also said British Prime Minister Theresa May has no choice but to follow through with Brexit, as failing to do so would undermine UK democracy.

"She must enact the will of the people, expressed during the referendum," he said. "Or otherwise it is not a referendum at all: doing it over and over again if someone did not like it [the result]. Is it a democracy?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46630723

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has accused the UK and US political classes of "disrespecting" the public by questioning the Brexit referendum and Donald Trump's election.

"They don't want to recognise [Mr Trump's] victory. That's disrespect of voters," he said.

"The same in Britain: Brexit happened, but no-one wants to implement it."

Russia's leader also said British Prime Minister Theresa May has no choice but to follow through with Brexit, as failing to do so would undermine UK democracy.

"She must enact the will of the people, expressed during the referendum," he said. "Or otherwise it is not a referendum at all: doing it over and over again if someone did not like it [the result]. Is it a democracy?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46630723

Well, there you have it. We all know that Uncle Vlad just wants what's best for us!

 

[Vixen]

You said it was relevant to ask what he did in the war, that's not mixing up his date of birth, it's either deliberate conflation of the father with the son or, well what? How many currently serving politicians do you think there are who were old enough to have played a part in the Second World War? I mean really, do you not know when it was? Do you really think when I pointed out he wasn't born until 1954 that your claiming he was born in 1950 addressed the actual issue? Do you really think that mixing up 1950 and 1954 makes any difference to the insinuation you were trying to make?

And are you also going to retract the slur that he was an SS Officer? That is a horrible accusation to pull out of your ass and throw at anyone.

Your claim that he was an Officer in the Wehrmact, without any evidence. You claimed he was 'committed' to their ideals, without any evidence, and that he brought his son up steeped in those ideals, without any evidence Can you not see that going around accusing people without evidence of willing complicity in genocide is a horrible thing to do?

Probably not, you don't even have the decency admit that you misspoke when you refered to Juncker's 'fellow Jews'.


ETA: And anyway, what Juncker's father did in the War still isn't relevant to his son.

You know very well I was referring to Juncker's dad. It is clear to me the people who lived during the war would now be in their seventies, eighties and nineties, so I was OBVIOUSLY not talking about 'what Jean Claude Juncker did in the war'.

I read somewhere that Juncker's father had been an SS-Officer and I took it in good faith. I am willing to accept that this might just have been a smear by the writer of the piece. It certainly is not my concoction.

 

[Vixen]

Wrong


Men aged 20 to 23 were required to register on 21 October 1939
By the end of 1939 more than 1.5 million men had been conscripted to join the British armed forces.

So in other words, those aged under 20 signed up voluntarily.

 

[Belgian thought]

Vixen, are you saying that Junker's father has any bearing on the Brexit situation? A decision on a referendum made by UK eligible voters which Junker had no right to vote.

Mods, could you split this thread and create "Junker's father was a Nazi - discuss" thread. or put this discussion to to AAH.

 

[Vixen]

Of course some men weren't conscripted.
Some 'essential' occupations were 'Reserved' and exempt from conscription.

Others were conscripted to work in Coal and Ironstone Mines rather than serve in the military.

Even so the vast majority would have just served their time as privates. Those dedicated to the cause sat exams to try to better themselves. For example the Leading Aircraftman (LAC) exams to get a foot on the officer ranks of the RAF. So, even if conscripted, those rising in the ranks could be said to be more committed to King and Country than those who spent half their time in the glasshouse or AWOL.

 

[Strawberry]

So in other words, those aged under 20 signed up voluntarily.

He's talking about the British Armed Forces. Juncker's dad was conscripted into the Wehrmacht and there is no evidence he was ever an officer.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

You know very well I was referring to Juncker's dad. It is clear to me the people who lived during the war would now be in their seventies, eighties and nineties, so I was OBVIOUSLY not talking about 'what Jean Claude Juncker did in the war'.

You said it was relevant to ask a politician what they in the war. If not Jean Claude Juncker which politician is relevant to Brexit who should be asked?

I read somewhere that Juncker's father had been an SS-Officer and I took it in good faith. I am willing to accept that this might just have been a smear by the writer of the piece. It certainly is not my concoction.

and

Great, withdraw it then, and while you're at it support or withdraw the claim that he was an officer and willingly supported Nazi ideals.

 

[Vixen]

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has accused the UK and US political classes of "disrespecting" the public by questioning the Brexit referendum and Donald Trump's election.

"They don't want to recognise [Mr Trump's] victory. That's disrespect of voters," he said.

"The same in Britain: Brexit happened, but no-one wants to implement it."

Russia's leader also said British Prime Minister Theresa May has no choice but to follow through with Brexit, as failing to do so would undermine UK democracy.

"She must enact the will of the people, expressed during the referendum," he said. "Or otherwise it is not a referendum at all: doing it over and over again if someone did not like it [the result]. Is it a democracy?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46630723

Putin: there's another skilled maverick. Everything he says is designed to have an ulterior effect.

His reference to Trump is surely his mocking the hapless POTUS, who dare not say a horrible word against Putin.

 

[Vixen]

You said it was relevant to ask a politician what they in the war. If not Jean Claude Juncker which politician is relevant to Brexit who should be asked?

and

Great, withdraw it then, and while you're at it support or withdraw the claim that he was an officer and willingly supported Nazi ideals.

I shan't because I have never seen Juncker explain anywhere exactly what his father did in the war. All he can come out with was, 'Oh he was forced to join' (=the old 'just obeying orders' line) and turned it around to make his father the victim: claiming that the British press had made his father cry.