Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[Belz...]

The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic

Ah. I didn't understand your post in context and took it literally. Stupid internet.

 

[3point14]

As you asked the question, how does it stack up against the legislative and executive bodies of the EU?

Er, I didn't ask a question, that I'm aware of.

The Tory Party won* the previous election and therefore got to form a government. As Tory MPs are elected then it makes sense that they also get to elect their leader. Maybe that is even more in keeping with representative democracy that only MPs can do this rather than those who pay membership fees to parties. Other parliamentary systems have similar conventions such as the Irish parliament as the party elected Leo Varadkar PM.

* they got the most seats if not a majority.

I make no comment as to the appropriateness of the process, I just note that the difference in apparent public opinion between the two differing forms of representative democracy is stark.

I didn't think I'd have to explain myself this much, to be fair.

 

[angrysoba]

Er, I didn't ask a question, that I'm aware of.

This was where it started....

Can anyone give me a brief update on the democratic deficit?

 

[3point14]

This was where it started....

Oh, fair point.

It was intended to be entirely rhetorical, which is why I didn't register it as a question. Odd.

 

[Belz...]

Oh, fair point.

It was intended to be entirely rhetorical, which is why I didn't register it as a question. Odd.

Well at least your attempt at sarcasm confused the both of us.

 

[3point14]

Well at least your attempt at sarcasm confused the both of us.

Yeah, I really shouldn't try to do funny.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Er... no actually. What'd I miss?

Well, leaving aside the false dichotomy there, I can't say that I'd prefer it, but the point is that a parliament is not needed.

If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.

I guess the idea is that they all do it together.

Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?

The direction of travel for the EU is to INCREASE the number of members not reduce it.

 

[Belz...]

If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.

I'd say I'm concerned about the EC more than complaining about it since I don't live in the EU nor do I feel the consequences of its so-called democratic deficit.

Still, you could have representatives appointed by the elected members of government in the various EU states. A parliament might be preferable, but it isn't the only workable solution.

Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?

It was a joke, Archie. Hence the smiley. If you want me to be serious, you have a very good point there.

 

[Dr. Keith]

If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.



Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?

The direction of travel for the EU is to INCREASE the number of members not reduce it.

I was talking to a Swedish ex-pat who has lived in the US for 20-30 years. He thinks Sweden should follow the UK.

I asked why and his main sticking point was that the EU had required driver's licenses to expire if you haven't lived in the country of issuance for ten years. I was stunned. Who cares about having a drivers license in a country you haven't lived in for over ten years? You can still drive when you visit. You can get a new license if you eventually return for a longer period. It just seemed like such a minor thing, but he thought it was worth it to send the economy into the dirt for 5 years just to fix that sort of thing. That was his estimate, 5 year downturn.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

 

[3point14]

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

That sounds pretty rational to me. Someone paid Arron Banks (A man who isn't in the news half as much as he should be) (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...nks-emails-steve-bannon-brexit-campaign-funds)


It's been a very, very good year for Vlad.

 

[Belz...]

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

No, I think you're right on the money.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I was talking to a Swedish ex-pat who has lived in the US for 20-30 years. He thinks Sweden should follow the UK.

I asked why and his main sticking point was that the EU had required driver's licenses to expire if you haven't lived in the country of issuance for ten years. I was stunned. Who cares about having a drivers license in a country you haven't lived in for over ten years? You can still drive when you visit. You can get a new license if you eventually return for a longer period. It just seemed like such a minor thing, but he thought it was worth it to send the economy into the dirt for 5 years just to fix that sort of thing. That was his estimate, 5 year downturn.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

Admittedly why should he care about something as irrelevant to him as the Swedish Economy? Send it into the crapper for the next 500 years, as long as he can drive there if he moves back it is worth it. He might be much more able to afford servants in such a retirement move if they destroy their economy.

You have to take a proper view of such things to understand the logic.

 

[a_unique_person]

Why sack May when the next PM is going to be just as incompetent at trying to achieve the impossible?

 

[Darat]

The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic

Add into that that this is the second time since the public actually got a say that the Tories alone are voting for the leader of the country but, oddly, a second vote for the people to decide on brexit is somehow not democratic and the irony is almost an emetic.

I think the way to put it is that out of the entire country of over 60 million we let potentially just 48 people decide who is allowed to be prime minister.

 

[a_unique_person]

Oh well. I could do with a laugh. I hope Boris wins.

 

[fagin]

Admittedly why should he care about something as irrelevant to him as the Swedish Economy? Send it into the crapper for the next 500 years, as long as he can drive there if he moves back it is worth it. He might be much more able to afford servants in such a retirement move if they destroy their economy.

You have to take a proper view of such things to understand the logic.

You can drive anywhere in the EU with any valid EU licence. If you are resident in a country for a year, you need to transfer your licence to that country. No test is needed. If you go to another one, same story. It's not exactly a hardship.

 

[Arcade22]

I was talking to a Swedish ex-pat who has lived in the US for 20-30 years. He thinks Sweden should follow the UK.

I asked why and his main sticking point was that the EU had required driver's licenses to expire if you haven't lived in the country of issuance for ten years. I was stunned. Who cares about having a drivers license in a country you haven't lived in for over ten years? You can still drive when you visit. You can get a new license if you eventually return for a longer period. It just seemed like such a minor thing, but he thought it was worth it to send the economy into the dirt for 5 years just to fix that sort of thing. That was his estimate, 5 year downturn.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

The funny thing is that those kinds of rules and regulations would probably still remain in Swedish law even if it left the EU.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

While the only thing on the news here has been May surviving a confidence vote, other stuff has been going on. For example, a large new free trade deal has been confirmed with Japan, to begin next February. Great news for Britain.

Unfortunately it then stops at the end of March, because of course it's a deal between Japan and the EU, not the UK. Still, blue passports, eh?

 

[Arcade22]

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.

It's true, or at least they are trying their hardest to do so. Divide and conquer. They, their trolls and useful idiots work to drive wedges both between and within western countries. The EU, by allowing smaller countries to pool their influence together and push back against Russian irredentism and imperialist aggression is a serious obstacle.

 

[Ambrosia]

Is that really the root cause of wanting the UK to leave the EU? Because of a personal gripe about a single type of product? Sounds petty.

If it was the root cause, it would be. But it's not. apparently I just suck at explaining my viewpoints.

I was ambivalent on the EU up until I took a close interest in the passage of the TPD in 2016. I thought that the EU parliament was basically a larger version of our UK parliament. It isn't. It sacrifices thoroughness in the name of efficiency and as a result a lot of EU legislation is poorly drafted.

A bill that affects millions of EU residents should be fully debated in the parliament before it gets voted on. MEPs should have a good understanding of the arguments for and against something before voting, and they don't, they don't have time to do that because they have to be efficient.

I think the EU should work like this.

Widget X has been tested and given the "ERS" "EuroRubberStamp"
widget Y has not. It's functionally the same as X it just hasn't been tested.

Widget X should get preferential treatment when it is exported to other EU countries. No tarrifs/customs duties etc etc Widget Y should not. It could still be exported and sold in other EU countries provided it was compliant with local health and safety standards, but it would be more expensive than X because it has no ERS and as such has to pay extra duties and taxes.

What actually happens is the EU mandates that all widgets sold in the EU *must* have ERS. I think that is wrong.

If you were a small business hand carving widgets out of local wood and through smart marketing you sold a few widgets to the niche enthusiast market but never wanted to export them elsewhere, then you have a viable business in the first kind of model.

As for smoking in Europe, Canada's reduced smoking quite a bit over the years mostly through changing social attitudes.

You might want to check the figures. In most of the western world smoking prevalence has declined markedly since about 2010, and the biggest reason for that is technological.

Congratulations. You helped screw over millions of people on a whim.

I didn't vote on a whim. I voted because I thought at the time that leaving the EU and it's unrepresentative democracy was the long term best option, and that the pain caused by leaving it would be shorter term and manageable.

It turns out I was wrong and our present crop of politicians have fubared everything to do with Brexit and the amount of pain the country will have to endure to actually exit won't be worth it.

See, now you're talking. Personally I think the EU should be a sort of confederation or just a strong trade agreement. Having an actual parliament, especially one back-assward like the EU's, is a bad idea. Trying to make a country out of Europe is a worse one.

I'd be happy with a federal US of E as well. either go the whole hog, or just have a very strong trade agreement.

A "very strong trade agreement" in my view is free movement of EU citizens within the EU. Free movement of goods and services that have the 'ERS' and that's it. No EU parliament setting laws that apply to all member countries. A countries laws are it's own affair, so if country A wants to ban the sale of Widget X within it's borders it can do so, whether it has an ERS or not.

There are also future big problems in store for the EU (whether or not the UK leaves) when the Greece crisis mkII happens, whether that's with Greece or Spain, or Ireland or Italy. All of those economies aren't that strong right now and at present the EU does't control both monetary and fiscal policy for EU member states. which is a long term recipe for disaster.

What might happen when Merkel goes as German leader? Germany has been strong and stable for years and is one of the main foundations of the EU. If they change their views on the EU in a few years time how will it change then?

Right now the EU is trending towards becoming more complicated more "efficient" and less representative. And the EU is too tightly interwoven for a trade agreement and not tightly enough to withstand long term potential problems, sort of a no mans land of integration.