Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

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Belz... said:
See, now you're talking. Personally I think the EU should be a sort of confederation or just a strong trade agreement. Having an actual parliament, especially one back-assward like the EU's, is a bad idea. Trying to make a country out of Europe is a worse one.
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I think that's a very important point. I believe there may be many Leavers who would be very happy still to be in the EEC, but unfortunately the EU is the only game in town.

Dave
 
Belz... said:
How so? The various nations in it have little in common aside from general principles.
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As a single country the EU can be a stronger voice and actor for those principles... more so than a collection of individual countries can be.
 
Dave Rogers said:
I think that's a very important point. I believe there may be many Leavers who would be very happy still to be in the EEC, but unfortunately the EU is the only game in town.
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Yes, and unless the other 27 nations are equally willing to roll back the years, the EEC just isn't an option.
 
Amazer said:
As a single country the EU can be a stronger voice and actor for those principles... more so than a collection of individual countries can be.
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No doubt about that. I just think that the situation would be even more divisive than the current one in the US. In addition to being split on ideological and partisan issues, you'd have some serious cultural difference either preventing the country from taking decisions for all citizens, or which would lead to decisions causing massive discontent on a regular basis.
 
Belz... said:
No doubt about that. I just think that the situation would be even more divisive than the current one in the US. In addition to being split on ideological and partisan issues, you'd have some serious cultural difference either preventing the country from taking decisions for all citizens, or which would lead to decisions causing massive discontent on a regular basis.
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I really don't think that cultural differences are such a serious issue. A country like India seems quite capable of handling a wide variety of cultures within its borders and still manages to function as a single country. I'm not going to pretend that it will be easy but it is doable for the EU to manage the same. Ideological and partisan issues might be a problem, but that doesn't seem to be a product of the size of a country as evidenced by what is happening in the UK.
 
Belz... said:
See, now you're talking. Personally I think the EU should be a sort of confederation or just a strong trade agreement. Having an actual parliament, especially one back-assward like the EU's, is a bad idea. Trying to make a country out of Europe is a worse one.
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No, having a Parliament is absolutely necessary as a free trade zone wouldn't work without someone setting rules and regulations and given that each country wants representation in that body and a democratic approach then a Parliament works well.

A system without a Parliament would be exactly the kind of undemocratic shady rule setting system that those who oppose the EU on ideological grounds pretend it currently is.

There is nobody trying to make a country out of Europe. But they are trying to make a solid co-operative trading bloc with minimal internal barriers and consistent economic, social and political standards.

Its far from perfect, but nothing is.

I for one would not think it fair that we could have FTA with say Bulgaria that would allow them to make stuff on the cheap thanks to low standards in employment H&S or environmental standards or whatever and sell it into the UK. Equally I don't believe that Spanish capital should be able to move freely into the UK without their labour being able to do the same.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No, having a Parliament is absolutely necessary as a free trade zone wouldn't work without someone setting rules and regulations and given that each country wants representation in that body and a democratic approach then a Parliament works well.
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Other treaties manage to work fine without a parliament. As for a democratic approach, the part of the EU government that crafts laws isn't the elected one, so the elected officials don't even get to decide what laws are made, only which ones are passed.

A system without a Parliament would be exactly the kind of undemocratic shady rule setting system that those who oppose the EU on ideological grounds pretend it currently is.
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I have no problem with undemocratic systems for some things. But if you're going to build a democratic system, build it right.

There is nobody trying to make a country out of Europe.
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I'm pretty sure that's in the cards.
 
fagin said:
Kind of.

We could revive Esperanto.

Or as foreigners, we could shout and they could all learn English.
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No need. All other languages are just English with an extra vowel added to the end of each word.

Except Welsh. That's a respiratory condition.
 
Belz... said:
No doubt about that. I just think that the situation would be even more divisive than the current one in the US. In addition to being split on ideological and partisan issues, you'd have some serious cultural difference either preventing the country from taking decisions for all citizens, or which would lead to decisions causing massive discontent on a regular basis.
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There was a time when the island we now call Great Britain was filled with many small kingdoms that had cultural and ideological differences and yet, we managed to unify it (granted it frequently involved the use of edged weapons). I have no doubt that Europe will one day be unified in the same way although I’m sure it will not be for decades or centuries.

The UK needs to be part of the European project or it will become an insignificant little satellite state with delusions of grandeur. If it is part of the Europeans project, it will have a say in how the project evolves. You can’t do that if you are hurling insults in from the outside.
 
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jeremyp said:
There was a time when the island we now call Great Britain was filled with many small kingdoms that had cultural and ideological differences and yet, we managed to unify it (granted it frequently involved the use of edged weapons). I have no doubt that Europe will one day be unified in the same way although I’m sure it will not be for decades or centuries.

The UK needs to be part of the European project or it will become an insignificant little satellite state with delusions of grandeur. If it is part of the Europeans project, it will have a say in how the project evolves. You can’t do that if you are hurling insults in from the outside.
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Ok if we're talking about centuries I might agree that it's probable, if only because of the influence of high-speed, worldwide communications.
 
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