Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

[P.J. Denyer]

Is it just a coincidence that this is happening as the last of the 30s/40s generation leave us?

The generation that pulled up the ladder after them, chopped it up, burned it, defunded ladder makers, and denied ladders exist? Coincidence.

(With apologies to whoever originally did that joke on the News Quiz).

 

[GnaGnaMan]

Not really. Life outside the EU was in the 1970s and thus is subject to the vagaries of nostalgia and the fragility of human memory.

The world is also a very different place than it was 45 years ago. Just being out of the EU won't result in an immediate return to where the UK was in 1970 or 1960.

Incidentally, I recently skimmed a pertinent article:


How EEC membership drove Margaret Thatcher’s reforms

After 1945, the economies of the six founding members of the European Union grew faster than the UK's economy. Margaret Thatcher’s reforms in the mid-1980s have been credited with reversing this relative decline. This column argues that there is little empirical support for this explanation, and that a more credible turning point was around 1970 when the UK finally began the process of joining the European Economic Community.
https://voxeu.org/article/how-eec-membership-drove-margaret-thatcher-s-reforms

 

[Henri McPhee]

They don't seem to have the Departmental or executive experience.

 

[The Don]

They don't seem to have the Departmental or executive experience.

Who ?

 

[ceptimus]

It's also a FACT that they're more likely to have had mumps - so what ?

What a ridiculous thing to say. Don't you think experience of being both within and without an organization gives you more information on which to make an informed decision on whether or not it's worth remaining within it?

Who would be best placed to say how bad having the mumps is - someone who'd never had the mumps, or someone who had?

 

[Strawberry]

What a ridiculous thing to say. Don't you think experience of being both within and without an organization gives you more information on which to make an informed decision on whether or not it's worth remaining within it?

Who would be best placed to say how bad having the mumps is - someone who'd never had the mumps, or someone who had?

The experience older British people have of being outside the EU is so long ago that its no longer relevant. Since the 1970s the whole world has moved towards forming trade blocs with their nearest neighbours, the UK is the only country moving in the opposite direction.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

What a ridiculous thing to say. Don't you think experience of being both within and without an organization gives you more information on which to make an informed decision on whether or not it's worth remaining within it?

Who would be best placed to say how bad having the mumps is - someone who'd never had the mumps, or someone who had?

What do these oldtimers say was better in the old days? Can't be the economy.

 

[The Don]

What a ridiculous thing to say. Don't you think experience of being both within and without an organization gives you more information on which to make an informed decision on whether or not it's worth remaining within it?

Not really, for the reasons that I explained earlier....

Who would be best placed to say how bad having the mumps is - someone who'd never had the mumps, or someone who had?

Depends on the knowledge of the person who hasn't had mumps. I'd put a doctor who hasn't had mumps' knowledge over my own, because I had mumps nearly 50 years ago and I was quite young at the time so my memories are liable to be very unreliable and reflect the treatment of mumps 50 years ago and of course ignores the fact that people hardly ever get mumps any more because of inoculation.

 

[The Don]

What do these oldtimers say was better in the old days? Can't be the economy.

- Pounds and ounces
- Fewer foreigners
- Rose-tinted spectacles

And of course that unskilled and semi-skilled people could earn enough to support a family, ignoring the fact that standards of living are not comparable and that leaving the EU won't address the factors which have led to less skilled people not doing so well.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What a ridiculous thing to say. Don't you think experience of being both within and without an organization gives you more information on which to make an informed decision on whether or not it's worth remaining within it?

Who would be best placed to say how bad having the mumps is - someone who'd never had the mumps, or someone who had?

My parents have experienced being out of the hospital well and in the hospital quite sick. Presumably that makes leaving the hospital, closing the hospitals and burning them to the ground while blaming doctors for all death the right move for everyone?

 

[quadraginta]

So TM is about to announce formally that she rejects the backstop proposal on Northern Ireland that she said she agreed to at the time.

A deal is then impossible and the blue passports will have to be put on hold while ration books are printed.

In France, probably.

 

[quadraginta]

WP has a lengthy article on the subject. Do not make the mistake to interpret this as a defect specific to brexiteers.

Escalation of commitment​

Escalation of commitment is a human behavior pattern in which an individual or group facing increasingly negative outcomes from some decision, action, or investment nevertheless continues the same behavior rather than alter course. The actor maintains behaviors that are irrational, but align with previous decisions and actions.

Economists and behavioral scientists use a related term, sunk-cost fallacy, to describe the justification of increased investment of money, time, lives, etc. in a decision, based on the cumulative prior investment ("sunk cost"); despite new evidence suggesting that the cost, beginning immediately, of continuing the decision outweighs the expected benefit.

In sociology, irrational escalation of commitment or commitment bias describe similar behaviours. The phenomenon and the sentiment underlying it are reflected in such proverbial images as "throwing good money after bad", "in for a penny, in for a pound", and "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again".

"... repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results."

 

[ddt]

What do these oldtimers say was better in the old days? Can't be the economy.

- Pounds and ounces
- Fewer foreigners
- Rose-tinted spectacles

And of course that unskilled and semi-skilled people could earn enough to support a family, ignoring the fact that standards of living are not comparable and that leaving the EU won't address the factors which have led to less skilled people not doing so well.

You forgot to add all those quality British cars like the Morris Marina and the Austin Allegro.

 

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Planigale
Well apparently you will need a boat since Ireland is threatening to ground flights from the UK, despite the fact that the RAF provides air defence for Ireland!

What's being said here? That Ireland should accept UK supremacy because military might?

No but the RAF may not be able to provide air-defence for Ireland if they are banned from the airspace!

Originally Posted by Planigale
Also over flight rights are a non EU issue, and international agreements pre-date the EU. Mr Varadkar seems to be turning a bit Trumpish.

It's hardly news that aviation is the sector hardest hit by losing EU regulation. I am not really sure what's wrong with what Varadkar said.

What is wrong is saying that UK aircraft will be banned from Irish air space in revenge for Irish fishermen being restricted in fishing in the UK exclusive economic fishing zone post Brexit. The parallel would be if the UK banned transit rights of Irish vessels from passing through UK waters. The harvesting of UK resources by Irish fishermen is not equivalent to overfly rights. Norway and Iceland (and the Faroes I think) also restrict EU fishing rights but their aircraft are not banned from EU airspace. It is also cutting off your nose to spite your face, mutual closure of airspace would have a much greater effect on Ireland than the UK. Note this is an Irish trade warfare action not an EU action consequent on Brexit - hence Trumpish.

The implication from you and other posters seems to be that only EU registered aircraft are able to fly in EU airspace. International agreements on airflight predate the EU. Air traffic control is zonal not based on the country of registration of the aircraft. Landing rights are a different issue, since slots tend to be based on mutuality (if not in a common market), so the UK would need to agree to matching slots for the UK registered aircraft landing in the EU as compared with EU registered craft landing in the UK. I have no idea how they currently balance, but Ryanair might lose slots or need to register aircraft in the UK.

 

[Planigale]

You forgot to add all those quality British cars like the Morris Marina and the Austin Allegro.

The three day week? I understand that before joining the EU people were only allowed to work three days a week?

 

[The Don]

Apart from keeping foreigners out, Daddy Don's other motivation for voting Brexit was being able to buy incandescent lightbulbs.

When we bought him some LED bulbs, he changed his mind

 

[Aber]

What do these oldtimers say was better in the old days? Can't be the economy.

Colour coded fire extinguishers.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

May is in the news demanding the EU fix the Irish border problem. I do not "get it." How, exactly, is this anyone else's problem? What on God's not-so-good-Earth does Brexit mean, then? Thank goodness the Leave process has deadlines, or it would be eternal, and eventually turned into one long complaint about "what the EU has done to us."

What happened to people on both sides of the Atlantic? Leaded gasoline? Diesel fuel particulates? Reality TV?

 

[jimbob]

May is in the news demanding the EU fix the Irish border problem. I do not "get it." How, exactly, is this anyone else's problem? What on God's not-so-good-Earth does Brexit mean, then? Thank goodness the Leave process has deadlines, or it would be eternal, and eventually turned into one long complaint about "what the EU has done to us."

What happened to people on both sides of the Atlantic? Leaded gasoline? Diesel fuel particulates? Reality TV?

Look, May has done the heavy lifting - she commissioned the best minds in the Tory Party to perform the Brexit negotiations, and herself has come up with a firm negotiating position, some of which is not actually logically impossible with a hypothetical technology.

It's only fair the EU does its share and resolve the contradictions around the red lines.


I am still wondering why May didn't set out what she wanted from Brexit before starting Article 50.

 

[Planigale]

May is in the news demanding the EU fix the Irish border problem. I do not "get it." How, exactly, is this anyone else's problem? What on God's not-so-good-Earth does Brexit mean, then? Thank goodness the Leave process has deadlines, or it would be eternal, and eventually turned into one long complaint about "what the EU has done to us."

What happened to people on both sides of the Atlantic? Leaded gasoline? Diesel fuel particulates? Reality TV?

I suppose because the EU specified this as an issue. Since they have set this as an issue it is not unreasonable for them to come out with proposed solutions; this does not mean the UK should not actively play a role, but it does mean that the EU approach of saying this is a red line for us but we are not going to think about how to address this issue, just say NO with whatever the UK suggests is not the best approach to achieving a practical solution.

The EU could be pro-active.