Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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ceptimus said:
No good attempting to blame him. Davis didn't even want to agree to allow the EU to separate the 'divorce deal' from the 'future trade deal'. If he'd been allowed by May to negotiate the way he wanted (more like Boris is attempting to now) then we'd never have had May's pathetic deal in the first place and we wouldn't have wasted almost two years...
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See?
The "it was May's deal" rewrite is coming along nicely.

Nothing to do with lazy-bastard Davis.

If we'd negotiated like Johnson is trying to now we'd have come away with precisely what Johnson will come away with...bugger all.
 
ceptimus said:
Wrong again. They all want a deal - including Boris and Rees Mogg. What they won't accept is May's surrender deal.
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You are going to have to show me where the deal(s) they want is(are) expressed in any way shape or form.

Then we can see if it's a) possible and b) even close to being agreeable to the EU
 
abaddon said:
What negotiations has Boris undertaken? None at all. Boris has no plan. What alternative to May's deal do the Brexiteers have? None at all.
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The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal. That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
 
ceptimus said:
Wrong again. They all want a deal - including Boris and Rees Mogg. What they won't accept is May's surrender deal.
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May's deal met perfectly the question on the referendum paper.

That you and others don't accept her deal makes it clear that any particular leave option may not be fully supported by those voting leave and therefore may not have majority support.

Thank you for making so clearly the case for a second referendum.
 
Lothian said:
May's deal met perfectly the question on the referendum paper.

That you and others don't accept her deal makes it clear that any particular leave option may not be fully supported by those voting leave and therefore may not have majority support.

Thank you for making so clearly the case for a second referendum.
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I said that May's deal 'ticked the box' of exiting the EU. But remainers and leavers alike agreed that it was worse than remaining in the EU - none of the advantages of being a full EU member, and none of the advantages of being completely outside the EU either (as long as the backstop was in force, which could have been forever if the EU so decreed).

So it was a terrible deal.

May said countless times, 'no deal is better than a bad deal', but was lying because she was actually afraid of leaving with no deal.

Leavers took her at her word and will continue to pursue no deal unless and until the EU offer a reasonable deal - or until the remainers succeed in their treachery and prevent Brexit entirely.
 
ceptimus said:
I said that May's deal 'ticked the box' of exiting the EU. But remainers and leavers alike agreed that it was worse than remaining in the EU - none of the advantages of being a full EU member, and none of the advantages of being completely outside the EU either (as long as the backstop was in force, which could have been forever if the EU so decreed).

So it was a terrible deal.

May said countless times, 'no deal is better than a bad deal', but was lying because she was actually afraid of leaving with no deal.

Leavers took her at her word and will continue to pursue no deal unless and until the EU offer a reasonable deal - or until the remainers succeed in their treachery and prevent Brexit entirely.
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Once again. Thank you. You confirmed that any leave deal can not be assumed to have majority support and another referendum is required.
 
May's deal was indeed worse than remaining in the EU. Any deal is going to be worse than remaining in the EU. It's the fact that the Brexiteers want two mutually exclusive things - leaving the EU and being better off - that has resulted in the current stalemate.
 
ceptimus said:
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal.
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The EU has been very clear about its deal "structure", not least because it's been implemented by various other countries:

If you want to be in the EEA, you have to agree to the four freedoms.

If you want to be in a customs union, you have to agree to EU standards.

Otherwise you're left with negotiating a free trade deal which is never going to be as favourable or comprehensive as either of the first two.

We want to play golf but so far we have refused to join the club or pay a green fee. The Brexiteer plan seems to be to wait to be asked to play for free - good luck with that.

ceptimus said:
That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
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It would never have worked. The Withdrawal Agreement is the best deal that could be got with all of the red lines.
 
Matt Hancock is now saying that Parliament is powerless to stop a no-deal Brexit (in direct contradiction of what he said when he was running for Conservative leader):(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49234603

Alternatively, Dominic Cummings is suggesting that Boris Johnson could simply ignore a vote of no confidence and take the UK out on a no-deal.
 
I know it's infra dig to fall back on whatboutery but I gain wry amusement from being labelled treacherous when the Leave campaign is funded by people literally betting on the damage they will cause:

 
ceptimus said:
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal. That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
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That is the plan?
Do nothing at all? That is the plan for something the UK itself put in motion? Do nothing and let other countries fix it for the UK?

May I quote myself to show how pathetic I think this position is?

erwinl said:
It must be so frustrating, being a brexiteer, never getting your way, despite having almost all political parties trying to act out that policy you want. Yet it is also so refreshing, being a brexiteer, never ever having to bear any responsibility or even do anything at all, except for pointing at others that you say have failed you.
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The Don said:
Matt Hancock is now saying that Parliament is powerless to stop a no-deal Brexit (in direct contradiction of what he said when he was running for Conservative leader):(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49234603

Alternatively, Dominic Cummings is suggesting that Boris Johnson could simply ignore a vote of no confidence and take the UK out on a no-deal.
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Parliament can vote to rescind Article 50.
 
Personnally I feel the UK has done nothing but whine and moan from the moment they joined the EU, demanding exemption upon exemption while at the same time happily using what they could. And at the same time blaming purely domestic problems on the EU.

May's deal was far more generous than I would have liked, and while I know this is anecdotal, I do know that this sentiment is not unique in the rest of the EU. So my guess would be that holding out for a better deal will mean no deal at all.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Personnally I feel the UK has done nothing but whine and moan from the moment they joined the EU, demanding exemption upon exemption while at the same time happily using what they could. And at the same time blaming purely domestic problems on the EU.

May's deal was far more generous than I would have liked, and while I know this is anecdotal, I do know that this sentiment is not unique in the rest of the EU. So my guess would be that holding out for a better deal will mean no deal at all.
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That was my thought as well.
I didn't think the UK deserved such a good deal after all the whining they did during all those years in the EU. But I also figured that we have to look to the future.

But apparently the UK (or at least a very sizable part of it) doesn't want that. They're locked into whining and complaining and lost their ability to do active and positive things. (as said before. Not all the people, just a very large part. And that part has been in charge for the last few years).
 
Hmm now I am imagining a new version of the classic Blazing Saddles scene with Boris holding a gun to his head saying "Give us all the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs or the limeys Get it!"

In leave circles this is called a strong bargaining position.
 
Arcade22 said:
If the UK survived Hitler it will survive Brexit...!
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I recall it needed US money and Russia shedding its blood on the Eastern front to survive Hitler.

What's it got now to help to survive Brexit now? Relying on the charity of predatory America.

Yeah, the UK will survive but what will be left of it?
 
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