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Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

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I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.

You said they were driving down wages - this allegation is unsupported by facts. Studies show that this is not the case.

You then produced a couple of "anecdotes" which sounded like they came straight from the Express or Mail. The alleged accountant couldn't have worked full time and earned £600 a month and some stream of consciousness about a beggar that I've seen versions of for decades.

Jeremy Corbyn may think he's protecting British workers (though I think his political dogma has more to do with it) but in truth he's playing to the xenophobia which is rife in British society.
 
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Anybody know what's going on? My mind has shut down, Brexit-wise; blown a fuse maybe. Any advice much appreciated.


What is “going on”, is that firstly -

(1) the PM will again try to present her “Deal” to the House next week. However, last night (Friday 22nd March) she gave a press statement saying that she may not bring that Bill back if she cannot find enough support over the next few days. That sounds like “political-speak” for admitting that so far she has not got enough MP's to back her deal. Also of course, the Speaker (John Bercow) has ruled that she will not be able to bring that deal back anyway unless the substance of the deal has significantly changed (and that “substance change” also seems unlikely).

However, if she is allowed to present that same Bill again, and if MP's do vote to accept it this time, then the UK would leave the EU on 22nd May (the revised date replacing 29th March).

Alternatively -

(2) if MP's vote against her returned Bil (or if the Speaker blocks it ... or if she herself decides not to present it), then Mrs May must return to the EU before 12th April with what the EU just described as a new plan that “indicates the way forward”, and that can be either (a) a new Exit plan that has the backing of the majority of UK MP's, or (b) a decision to hold a new referendum, or (c) a decision to hold a General Election, or (d) a decision to “Revoke Article-50” (which means the UK simply agrees to stay in the EU after all), or (e) something else entirely that nobody has thought of yet! And that all has to happen by 12th April, in which case if the EU agrees that the new “way forward” is acceptable, then the EU will grant a much longer delay for the UK to get that new “way forward” into action … that new delay could be for 6 months or even up to a whole year.

If that happens, ie if Mrs May cannot get her Deal heard or passed at the third attempt, so that she is forced to return to the EU by 12th April with an acceptable new “way forward”, then the EU expects the UK to take part in the EU elections that are taking place from 23rd to 26th May. What happens if the UK declines to take part in those elections is, afaik, unknown. Of course it's also technically possible that Mrs May will refuse to return to the EU on 12th April, or she may not have any agreed new "way foreward" to put to the EU by 12th April ... in which case we crash out of the EU (on 22nd May, I think) with a "No Deal Brexit"

Basically what all that means is that if we don't leave on 22nd May (due to the PM winning her Bill at it's third attempt), then the most likely option is that the party leaders collectively take charge of finding a new “way forward” (ie it's taken out of the sole hands of the PM), and that the UK will either agree an entirely new Deal to Exit the EU (and the EU will grant up to a year to sort that out), or else if a new “way forward” cannot be agreed amongst all the MPs, then the most likely options are either a new referendum or stay in the EU (ie “revoke” Article-50).

Last bit of news – a public on-line petition to Revoke Article-50 (ie just cancel plans for any Brexit and remain in the EU) was started on Thursday (21st March), and that now has 4 million signatures (which is probably a record, and in record quick time, for any public UK protest). And latest polls show that a new referendum would probably return a victory for ”Remain in EU” by a fairly sizeable margin of as much as up to 55% Remain vs 45% Leave (but of course the polls have proved spectacularly wrong in recent UK elections).
 
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If that happens, ie if Mrs May cannot get her Deal heard or passed at the third attempt, so that she is forced to return to the EU by 12th April with an acceptable new “way forward”, then the EU expects the UK to take part in the EU elections that are taking place from 23rd to 26th May.
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.
 
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.

Yes, which is obviously unacceptable. How very dare the UK populace have a say in Europe.
 
I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.

I take it that means you can't defend your conjectures and anecdotes?
 
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The issue of expatriate voting is an interesting one and linked to the question of contribution to and involvement in society as much as anything else.
Does someone really deserve the right to vote in a country when they're no-longer contributing to it (via taxation) or involved with it on a day-to-day basis, merely because they're citizens.
Perhaps a limited franchise, parliamentary elections and referenda only?

I'd also point out that UK citizens living outside the UK only lose their franchise after fifteen years, if they were registered to vote before leaving.
Interesting piece in The Guardian on government plans to extend expatriate voting being blocked.
The idea is unpopular with the Electoral Commission, the Electoral Reform Society, Labour and anti-corruption activists and groups.
 
As Bob Dylan said, it doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

ETA: What about the GRAUNIAD:



They will do it for a miserly wage a Brit will not touch.

Don't get me wrong, they are optimising their own circumstances. That's why people migrate.

Picking up 400 crates an hour for £12 is the EU taking the piss, not the fault of the Romanians.

However, workers rights do need to be protected and this is where Corbyn is coming from. Nothing to do with xenophobia.

£12 an hour is well above the UK minimum wage, why is it the EU 'taking the piss'? They don't set the UK minimum wage.
 
I have looked. I can't find a single position for a qualified accountant in the UK paying £7,200 a year. Not even a part-time one.

about the lowest I can find is in the region of £25k-30k.

Which ain't great. But it ain't 600 quid a month
 
I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.

Of course they're not, but neither are the living costs. Having worked in various countries, more often than not you will find that doing a similar job in other countries gives you roughly the same standard of living.

Most of the low skilled jobs given to immigrants in the UK are done so because they can't be filled by homegrown workers.
 
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.


Yes, I agree with that. Though in the the part that you quoted from my post, I had actually confused that with a different scenario which I was unclear about, but which I think is the most likely scenario, namely this -

- next week if Mrs May's "Revised Deal" is outvoted for a 3rd time, then she is obliged to meet with leaders from all sides of the House to formulate what the EU asked for as the outline of a viable “new way forward”. Then assuming the UK MP's agree upon a new outline plan, Mrs May has agreed to take that to the EU by April 12th, in which case the EU have already said that if the plan is viable they will grant the UK a much longer extension (6 months or more) as time in which UK MPs can carefully thrash out all the specific details of that new way forward ….

… that's all fine and fairly clear (I think?), except that the EU have imposed a very strict condition saying they will only grant that longer extension IF the UK agrees to participate in the EU elections that begin on 23rd May … and I think (?) the threat is that if by 22nd May the UK (Mrs May) has still not confirmed that we are participating in those EU elections, then the UK will automatically leave with “No Deal” on that date of 22nd May … or at least that's the way I understood the EU statements of this last week … is that right??, do you think?
 
Yes, I agree with that. Though in the the part that you quoted from my post, I had actually confused that with a different scenario which I was unclear about, but which I think is the most likely scenario, namely this -

- next week if Mrs May's "Revised Deal" is outvoted for a 3rd time, then she is obliged to meet with leaders from all sides of the House to formulate what the EU asked for as the outline of a viable “new way forward”. Then assuming the UK MP's agree upon a new outline plan, Mrs May has agreed to take that to the EU by April 12th, in which case the EU have already said that if the plan is viable they will grant the UK a much longer extension (6 months or more) as time in which UK MPs can carefully thrash out all the specific details of that new way forward ….

… that's all fine and fairly clear (I think?), except that the EU have imposed a very strict condition saying they will only grant that longer extension IF the UK agrees to participate in the EU elections that begin on 23rd May … and I think (?) the threat is that if by 22nd May the UK (Mrs May) has still not confirmed that we are participating in those EU elections, then the UK will automatically leave with “No Deal” on that date of 22nd May … or at least that's the way I understood the EU statements of this last week … is that right??, do you think?

I suppose the truth is that anything might happen but I think the current plan is that if we want to extend beyond April then that requires the UK to agree to participate in the elections. If we don't agree to that we drop out on April 12th.

Although there still seems to be a limbo around March 29th because we haven't passed any legislation to cancel that in Parliament.
 
Unless parliament does something, we crash out with no deal on March 29th.

If parliament passes suitable legislation then we'll accept the EU's extension and leave with Theresa May's deal in place in 29 May or, if there is no vote or if the vote fails, we have until 12 April to go back to the EU with a plan.

The default is still a no-deal on the 29th March.
 
Unless parliament does something, we crash out with no deal on March 29th.

If parliament passes suitable legislation then we'll accept the EU's extension and leave with Theresa May's deal in place in 29 May or, if there is no vote or if the vote fails, we have until 12 April to go back to the EU with a plan.

The default is still a no-deal on the 29th March.

It's a bit more complicated than that. If Parliament does nothing then we would technically still be in the EU as per the non-legislative act the EU published yesterday but domestically it would be a huge mess. Passing the statutory instrument through both houses should be a formality but, with Brexit, you never know what might happen next.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that. If Parliament does nothing then we would technically still be in the EU as per the non-legislative act the EU published yesterday but domestically it would be a huge mess. Passing the statutory instrument through both houses should be a formality but, with Brexit, you never know what might happen next.

Assuming the legislation comes to the House is it going to be amendable?

If so fun and games might ensue.

I have no confidence in it getting passed if it is purely to extend the deadline till April 12.

The hard brexiteers would rather we left now.

Are Labour going to support a Tory bill?
Will the SNP?
 
As the cancel brexit petition tops 4 million, the lady who started it has been receiving death threats and has closed her social media down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

If the vote had been 52% remain and 48% leave, do you think those who wanted to leave would have stopped campaigning, given up, folded UKIP and just gone away?

No they would not.

As those people who claim another referendum is undemocratic criticised the SNP for wanting a second one on independence?

No they have not.

Or do they criticise the second devolution referendums that took place in Scotland and Wales?

No they do not.

The brexiters pick and chose what suits them, just like everyone else does. Those trying to stop brexit are campaigners just like the brexiters are. They both use whatever lawful and peaceful means that are allowed in a democracy to get their way.
 
The brexiters pick and chose what suits them, just like everyone else does. Those trying to stop brexit are campaigners just like the brexiters are. They both use whatever lawful and peaceful means that are allowed in a democracy to get their way.

Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?
 
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