Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[catsmate]

You could ask a sample of people carefully selected to represent the demographics as closely as possible whether they think Britain should leave the EU or not. If a significant majority say not, there’s your reason for the third* referendum.

*yes, we have already had two.

Or you could create a Citizen's Assembly, with membership based on demographics, have them listen to actual experts and facts, and listen to their recommendations.
We have, and it's proved remarkably successful.

 

[Garrison]

It seems the ministers who have been mentioned as potential replacements for May are 'rallying round':

Brexit: Ministers tipped to replace Theresa May rally round

I still don't think any of them will touch the job until after Brexit is finished one way or another, its the one thing that's kept May in her job so far and I don't think anything has really changed.

 

[Information Analyst]

Of course "Conservative Party Members" is a tiny subset of "Conservative Voters" which complicates things further (true for all parties of course but it's particularly noticeable with the Tories as the subgroup is quite distinct from much of the larger group).

This is a distinction no doubt lost on Tory MPs. It may very well be that while the ardent local Conservative Association members might seek to deselect Remain-supporting MPs, that doesn't necessarily mean that those same MPs would not be re-elected if they stood again.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I have no idea what in heavens name is going on.


Left that up there all alone so you can quote-nail me all you like. Might as well enjoy Brexit: Endgame.

 

[jimbob]

It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.

Yes, and the argument is that it is somehow a refusal of democracy to have another vote when the first was flawed, opinion seems to have shifted, and the options are now clearer.

I don't think Parliament should revoke article 50 without having promising another referendum. But another referendum on the choices available - including revoke A50 is the only way to clear the logjam

 

[Dr. Keith]

I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?

 

[jimbob]

I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?

Vox pops can find lots of idiots.

I doubt it's common.

 

[Information Analyst]

I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?

I know heaps of Remain supporters, and not one has expressed such an opinion. Such interviews are likely to throw up all sorts of opinions (and, as jimbob says, a lot of idiots), and which ones make it to air may say more about the broadcaster than what is actually a representative sample of the population; the BBC tends to sit on the fence, having an studiously equal number of Remain and Leave voices (or a mix reflecting the split in the local population), with a still-doesn't-know thrown in for good measure.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?

I wouldn't be too sure this person ever was a Remain voter. The Leave campaign has told so many lies that I wouldn't believe a Brexiteer if he told me he was standing in front of me.

Dave

 

[This is The End]

There is no evidence based method by which to determine personal preference.

I disagree completely. There is not just a black or white binary switch when preference comes into play.

Normal scientific evidence based methods can very much help determine ones personal preferences in life.

 

[IanS]

Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?

Well there is evidence from recent polls to show that amongst the public the Leave vote has decreased by about 5% and the Remain vote has increased by about 5%, so that if we held a referendum now the polls would be predicting a win for Remain by about 53% to 47%. That's evidence of how the public seem to have changed their minds about Brexit.

And you ("Royal you", ie anyone) could ask themselves why there now appeared to be that swing against Brexit, i.e. what sort of evidence have those individuals used to change their mind? And the most obvious thing is that whereas in the weeks before the first referendum, people like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg were telling voters that if we left the EU we would immediately save £39-billion that we could spend on the NHS, now those voters realise that far from receiving £39-billion the UK would actually have to pay £39-billion or more to the EU as a "divorce settlement". Some of those Brexit voters who are now changing their mind (apparently), are probably taking that as "evidence" that they were seriously misled by Farage & Co.

Those same voters may also now be looking at the evidence of Honda closing their UK plant in Swindon, and Nissan moving some production out of the UK, plus dozens of other business who have said they might be forced to reconsider what production they kept in the UK after Brexit (Airbus for example).

So a lot of things like that may be part of the evidence that is causing some former Brexit voters to change their mind.

 

[Nessie]

I think point 1 is false. There is secretly a consensus - or a majority at least, for Remain. The problem is that the stupid referendum has cowed MPs into accepting something they don’t want because they might lose their jobs otherwise.

Point 2 is very true. There is absolutely no way that the EU was ever going to let Britain have a deal that was better than what we have now as a member. They cannot possibly be sending the message to other countries “hey, you’ll be better off if you leave”. No Deal is bad for the EU, but it’s not as bad as any deal that says you are better off not in the EU. For some reason, that point seems to have eluded the numbskulls negotiating for Britain.

A "secret" consensus is moot. One of the reason why many MPs want a series of votes is because there are so many ideas as to what is the best way forwards.

 

[Nessie]

I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?

I know of one. Just the one. What he does not get is that the EU is better at negotiating and in a stronger position than the UK and we were always going to come out second best.

It is a ridiculous position to take; how dare they negotiate a better deal for themselves

Therein lies another who does not get negotiations.

 

[Nessie]

Any goods you buy that come from the EU are cheaper because of the EU. You can travel abroad in the EU with minimal documentation. You need a passport at the border between the UK and the rest of the EU (except Ireland) but your drivers license and your car insurance are valid in the EU. Also, Your mobile phone operator cannot fleece you as it used to do when in other EU countries.

Your car is much safer than in the past because of EU standards. Food that you eat is safer because of EU safety standards.

Your employment rights are higher because of EU employment law. For example, most people cannot be made to work more than 48 hours per week because of the EU.

If you are a research scientist, you could be being funded by the EU science budget. If you work for an airline, your company benefits enormously from EU wide agreements on air travel.

You can be sure your Claret comes from Bordeaux, your Parma ham and your Stilton come from the correct regions.

If you want to live and work in Germany, France or even Romania, you can do so thanks to the EU.

There are down sides of course, you cannot drive your workers for 80 hours a week and you cannot call your dry cured ham that you make in a factory outside Rotherham “Parma ham”. Also, you can’t stop Romanians, Germans or French from coming here, taking jobs, paying taxes and improving the cultural diversity of the place.

It should be noted that, when I say “the EU”, as of now that includes the UK. All of the laws and regulations that lead to the things above were agreed in a decision making process in which the British government has huge influence. That influence will be going away in any scenario that is not Remain.

None of that has had any great impact on me, even my job was exempt from the working time directive, I have hardly been abroad and there no European worked where I used to work, or work now.

I get what you say, I am pro EU, my point was the EU does not rule over me as it has little impact directly on me.

 

[Nessie]

I don't know about that, but in any case, May pretty much kneecapped the negotiations right from the start, by imposing the red lines she had unilaterally decided upon.

That is what you get to do when are chief and the minions are squabbling amongst themselves so much, that there is not much point in asking any of them to come up with a workable solution.

 

[Nessie]

It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.

All correct.

 

[sphenisc]

Eight out of every hundred people in the UK have signed the petition to revoke Article 50.

The constituencies with highest percentage participation rates correlates well with large university towns, (and probably a lot of other things as well).

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584

 

[jimbob]

Eight out of every hundred people in the UK have signed the petition to revoke Article 50.

The constituencies with highest percentage participation rates correlates well with large university towns, (and probably a lot of other things as well).

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584

This one lists it in terms of voters:

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

 

[Nessie]

This one lists it in terms of voters:

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

Since Scotland voted remain, I am surprised how low down most Scottish constituencies come.

 

[jimbob]

Since Scotland voted remain, I am surprised how low down most Scottish constituencies come.

Need to get any of your friends on social media to sign