Black in America

[Metullus]

* snip * On the other hand, having served in the US Army alongside many fellow soldiers who happened to be black, and having studied what it is like to be in combat, I would hazard a guess that American soldiers in combat in Iraq feel a very strong bond with their fellow American soldiers -- their brothers in arms -- one much stronger than the bond any of the black American soldiers might feel with black strangers in Somalia.

This brings to mind one of my very first lessons on racism in the USA. I was an Army Brat. My father was a career officer in the US Army. He was born and raised in south Alabama (the home-place is just outside of Ozark.)

When the subject of race came up my father told me that he did not care where a man was born, what color his skin was, or how he parted his hair - all that mattered was the color of his uniform. I always remembered that. Not color-blindness, I suppose, but certainly an acknowledgment that there was something a good deal more important than race.

 

[Magic 8 Ball]

I have a story for you

I am white, my wife is black, and our daughter (a toddler) is mixed. We recently toured the U.S. (enjoying 27 states) for three months in a RV. Did we experience racism? You tell me. Here are the 3 instances I remember:

1) While driving in a car in Mississippi, we were greeted by a young mixed couple (probably still in high school). They did nothing more than wave at us in a cheerful manner, but the reason behind it seemed pretty clear to us (jungle fever).

2) While we were in a store in Mississippi, my wife noticed an old woman following us around. She kept looking at our daughter in a peculiar way. According to my wife it appeared that she was trying to figure out if our daughter was mixed. Our daughter is light skinned and doesn’t have many noticeable black features. Eventually my wife confronted her about getting too close to our daughter. The old woman quickly left without saying a word.

These two instances stuck in our heads for a while. We started to make a conscious effort to see if people in the South were giving us dirty looks. According to my wife we did get some looks, but she couldn’t conclude anything from them. We continued our trip eastbound.

3) In Savannah, Georgia, we noticed a lot of looks. We were walking around town with our daughter in her oversized stroller. It seemed that every street we walked down, someone was staring at our daughter. This went on for about 2 hours and it really started to bother us. It wasn’t until a small child walked right up to our daughter, looked inside the stroller, and then yelled back to her parents, did we finally realize what was going on. “She does have legs,” yelled the small child. What we didn’t realize is our daughter likes to sit in her stroller in an unusual way. Unless you are standing right in front of her, looking down, it appears that she has no legs (especially if you are observing from a distance). And all this time we thought… (I think you get the point)

The moral to this story: If you look for racism hard enough you’ll find something, but it doesn’t mean you found racism.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Slingblade, don't mind Claus. He debates woo-woos and has, via this debate, acquired a certain modus-operandi relevant to such debate. Which is ok. The problem is that he thinks this succesful attitude towards woo-woos is probably also a winner when discussing other things, such as discussing Politics with skeptics.

Claus, baby, would you agree that it is possible to divide all humans into categories based on some criteria?

This is question no. 1.

 

[Tmy]

Heres another little observation.

On many occasions white people will cordially refer to me as "brother". "Hey bro", "thanks brother" or somthing like that. Its not offensive but a little comical that is thought of as the way to address a black guy. Then I started to think to myself that maybe I call white guys "dude". I dont think I do.

Are white guys greeted with a "dude" by black guys?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Are white guys greeted with a "dude" by black guys?

Too US-centric for me to render an opinion.

 

[Tmy]

Youd be surprised how racist thoughts are so widely accepted. I remember I was in college, a marketing class when somehow we got to talking about race and sports.

So many of my classmates believed that blacks are physically the better athletes. Pointing to their high numbers in basketball and football cause they have some sort of better reflex gene that makes them jump higher or run faster.

I tried to argue that it was more social factors. that blacks play those sports more, and thats why their are higher numbers.

Hell, Im sure many people here think the same as my classmates.

 

[mrfreeze]

No no no. Everyone knows it's that extra bone in their foot. That's why they can't swim either. Makes them sink like a rock.

(Obviously joking of course)

 

[Tony]

Heres another little observation.

On many occasions white people will cordially refer to me as "brother". "Hey bro", "thanks brother" or somthing like that. Its not offensive but a little comical that is thought of as the way to address a black guy. Then I started to think to myself that maybe I call white guys "dude". I dont think I do.

Are white guys greeted with a "dude" by black guys?

Does it matter? I'll address people with different monikers all the time, sometimes it's "G", sometime "dude", sometimes "essay", sometimes "dog", sometimes "kid", and sometime "man". Race never plays a role, it's just whatever comes to my head at that particual moment.

 

[egslim]

So many of my classmates believed that blacks are physically the better athletes. Pointing to their high numbers in basketball and football cause they have some sort of better reflex gene that makes them jump higher or run faster.

I tried to argue that it was more social factors. that blacks play those sports more, and thats why their are higher numbers.

Try marathons: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/quokka_03.htm

At Boston, considered the world's premier marathon, Kenyan men have not lost since 1990.
[...]
Three-fourths of Kenyan world-class athletes trace their ancestry to this region, a level of dominance that has remained remarkably consistent over the decades. How remarkable is this juggernaut? Kalenjin runners have won more than 70 percent of Kenya's Olympic medals in world running and all but one of Kenyan-held world records.

Of course in many cases social factors are important, but the above evidence strongly suggests in the case of marathons genetic factors are at play too.
On the other hand, these are people from a fairly small, specific region - definately not blacks in general.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Youd be surprised how racist thoughts are so widely accepted.

Yes, and sometimes they can be used for humorous effect and to reduce possible tensions. I am still proud of my spontaneous little joke that went over well on my very first day of advanced camp (boot camp for ROTC cadets) at Ft. Bragg, NC. This was in 1985. I might be disciplined for it today.

About half of my platoon, which bunked together and did everything together, was white/hispanic/Asian, and the other half black. Our First Sergeant (the mother, father, teacher, administrator, motivator, and person who will kick your ass if you screw up in your unit) was black, and he was a career soldier who had been in the army for about 25 years.

He was showing us how to make our bunks correctly, including how to fold down the white sheet to expose exactly six inches of sheet. He said, "If you don't know how much six inches is, take out a dollar bill; that's about six inches."

I don't know what came over me, but suddenly I said in front of my whole platoon and the First Sergeant, "First Sergeant, I'm pretty sure most of us white boys know exactly what six inches looks like."

It got a lot of laughs, including from the First Sergeant and most of the black guys. It did help break any ice, and I got along with my platoon just fine. In fact, I spent most of the time we had free (which was very little) hanging out and cracking jokes with a handful or two of cool black guys in our unit. With a few exceptions, most of the white guys were dorks. I still remember the ones I hung out with, and that was only for a short six weeks.

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

I am white, my wife is black, and our daughter (a toddler) is mixed. We recently toured the U.S. (enjoying 27 states) for three months in a RV. Did we experience racism? You tell me. Here are the 3 instances I remember:

1) While driving in a car in Mississippi, we were greeted by a young mixed couple (probably still in high school). They did nothing more than wave at us in a cheerful manner, but the reason behind it seemed pretty clear to us (jungle fever).

2) While we were in a store in Mississippi, my wife noticed an old woman following us around. She kept looking at our daughter in a peculiar way. According to my wife it appeared that she was trying to figure out if our daughter was mixed. Our daughter is light skinned and doesn’t have many noticeable black features. Eventually my wife confronted her about getting too close to our daughter. The old woman quickly left without saying a word.

These two instances stuck in our heads for a while. We started to make a conscious effort to see if people in the South were giving us dirty looks. According to my wife we did get some looks, but she couldn’t conclude anything from them. We continued our trip eastbound.

3) In Savannah, Georgia, we noticed a lot of looks. We were walking around town with our daughter in her oversized stroller. It seemed that every street we walked down, someone was staring at our daughter. This went on for about 2 hours and it really started to bother us. It wasn’t until a small child walked right up to our daughter, looked inside the stroller, and then yelled back to her parents, did we finally realize what was going on. “She does have legs,” yelled the small child. What we didn’t realize is our daughter likes to sit in her stroller in an unusual way. Unless you are standing right in front of her, looking down, it appears that she has no legs (especially if you are observing from a distance). And all this time we thought… (I think you get the point)

The moral to this story: If you look for racism hard enough you’ll find something, but it doesn’t mean you found racism.

Good story, and I agree with your moral. After reading 1), I was thinking to myself, "How the hell is that an example of racism? Being friendly is racist?"

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

This brings to mind one of my very first lessons on racism in the USA. I was an Army Brat. My father was a career officer in the US Army. He was born and raised in south Alabama (the home-place is just outside of Ozark.)

When the subject of race came up my father told me that he did not care where a man was born, what color his skin was, or how he parted his hair - all that mattered was the color of his uniform. I always remembered that. Not color-blindness, I suppose, but certainly an acknowledgment that there was something a good deal more important than race.

That's a career Army man for you. My experience was very similar.

At my permanent duty station we made fun of my first battalion commander behind his back. He was competent and cool, and a decent guy and leader. No, we made fun of him because of his first name. It was "Wilburforce." He was black, but that played no part in our decision to make fun or refrain from making fun. Anyone named "Wilburforce" was going to be laugh at.

Thank goodness for us he never found out, or at least he never let on that he found out, and I had several face-to-face, one-on-one meetings with him, so he definitely had the chance to let me know.

AS

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Smart man not to take that bet.

Have you seen the forum group picture? There you have a sampling of about 100 forum members from the last TAM.

Looks like a combination of Woodstock and Comic-con.

 

[Tmy]

Try marathons: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/quokka_03.htm


Of course in many cases social factors are important, but the above evidence strongly suggests in the case of marathons genetic factors are at play too.
On the other hand, these are people from a fairly small, specific region - definately not blacks in general.

Im thinking of a sport where height, speed, quick reaction time and jumping ability are very important. Of course the US Olympic team of this sport is going to be virtually all.............WHITE!?!?

http://www.usavolleyball.org/VolleyballNews/news.asp?id=849

Must be genetic.

 

[Magic 8 Ball]

Good story, and I agree with your moral. After reading 1), I was thinking to myself, "How the hell is that an example of racism? Being friendly is racist?"

AS

No, being friendly is not racist. To me, when someone comments on race (or anything for that matter), it generally has some underlying meaning. In this instance I asked my wife the question, "do you think mixed couples are rare around here? Does the community frown upon this kind of thing?" I guess I’m just a pessimistic person.

 

[Skeptic]

The moral to this story: If you look for racism hard enough you’ll find something, but it doesn’t mean you found racism.

Good story, which shows what an enormous difference in racial attitudes took place between today and, say, 50 years ago. Can you imagine a mixed-race couple like yourself (with a baby, no less) travelling in the south in 1957 without risking their lives?

This is why I hate the "racism still exist!" hysteria. Yes, of course it does. But how much racism still exists, and of what kind? If (assuming racism could be measured) the USA today is 1% as racist as it was 50 years ago, when most white people accepted without second thought what today only the KKK believes, I'd be surprised.

 

[Skeptic]

Im thinking of a sport where height, speed, quick reaction time and jumping ability are very important. Of course the US Olympic team of this sport is going to be virtually all.............WHITE!?!?

http://www.usavolleyball.org/VolleyballNews/news.asp?id=849

Must be genetic.

Heh. Good 'un.

In the early 1900s, by the way, it was commonly believed that it is quite natural for blacks to do well in the popular sport craze of the day--bicycle racism--because of their quick reflexes and natural strength. But they would never succeed in a cerebral sport like boxing, where strength is secondary to quick wits and the ability to out-think the opponent when in the ring. Just look at the evidence: who ever heard (in 1900) of a black boxer?

 

[steverino]

Heres another little observation.

On many occasions white people will cordially refer to me as "brother". "Hey bro", "thanks brother" or somthing like that. Its not offensive but a little comical that is thought of as the way to address a black guy. Then I started to think to myself that maybe I call white guys "dude". I dont think I do.

Are white guys greeted with a "dude" by black guys?

Do people tell you that you are articulate and clean?

 

[CFLarsen]

Slingblade, don't mind Claus. He debates woo-woos and has, via this debate, acquired a certain modus-operandi relevant to such debate. Which is ok. The problem is that he thinks this succesful attitude towards woo-woos is probably also a winner when discussing other things, such as discussing Politics with skeptics.

You are not seriously suggesting that I should treat claims from skeptics any different than claims from woos?

Claus, baby, would you agree that it is possible to divide all humans into categories based on some criteria?

Of course it is. I am just questioning the criteria called "race".

 

[Skeptic]

You are not seriously suggesting that I should treat claims from skeptics any different than claims from woos?

Actually, you should, since most people (quite reasonably) demand less evidence for claims that are reasonable, such as most claims made by most skeptics, from unreasonable, absurd claims, such as those made by woos.

You treating all claims as if they require the same level of proof is utterly unreasonable because you waste enormous amounts of time and energy--and demand that others do the same--on proving obvious and reasonable claims; so when others refuse to play your game, you declare you "won" because they are not "real" skeptics.

In reality, however, your "skeptical" worldview is merely the mirror image of the woo worldview: you doubt everything, no matter how obvious, while they believe everything, no matter how absurd.

In other words,you have forgotten Piet Hein's wise words:

For many system shoppers it's
a good-for-nothing system
that classifies as opposites
stupidity and wisdom.

because by logic-choppers it's
accepted with avidity:
stupidity's true opposite's
the opposite stupidity.

You are quite right to look at the woo's "believe everything" view and consider it a stupidity. Unfortunately, by taking the exact opposite "doubt everything" position, you have not achieved wisdom. You merely achieved the opposite stupidity.