Black in America

[egslim]

Im thinking of a sport where height, speed, quick reaction time and jumping ability are very important. Of course the US Olympic team of this sport is going to be virtually all.............WHITE!?!?

http://www.usavolleyball.org/VolleyballNews/news.asp?id=849

Must be genetic.

What's the point you're trying to make? Nowhere did I mention anything about volleyball, and I specifically limited my claim about genetic influence to running - instead of the multitude of abilities you mention necessary for volleyball.

 

[CFLarsen]

Actually, you should, since most people (quite reasonably) demand less evidence for claims that are reasonable, such as most claims made by most skeptics, from unreasonable, absurd claims, such as those made by woos.

You treating all claims as if they require the same level of proof is utterly unreasonable because you waste enormous amounts of time and energy--and demand that others do the same--on proving obvious and reasonable claims; so when others refuse to play your game, you declare you "won" because they are not "real" skeptics.

In reality, however, your "skeptical" worldview is merely the mirror image of the woo worldview: you doubt everything, no matter how obvious, while they believe everything, no matter how absurd.

In other words,you have forgotten Piet Hein's wise words:



You are quite right to look at the woo's "believe everything" view and consider it a stupidity. Unfortunately, by taking the exact opposite "doubt everything" position, you have not achieved wisdom. You merely achieved the opposite stupidity.

You have completely misunderstood where I come from. I don't doubt everything, but I do ask for evidence of the claims I find unsupported and/or unreasonable.

Can skeptics not make unreasonable claims? You bet they can. In this case, I question the validity of referring to "race", when such a term is allowed and encouraged to be allowed defined by everyone. That's a wholly unreasonable idea.

 

[Skeptic]

You have completely misunderstood where I come from.

Well, of course I did--just like everybody else always misunderstands you.

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, of course I did--just like everybody else always misunderstands you.

What kind of snooty response is that? You assumed wrong, I corrected it, that's all.

Your false assumption about my stance is not my problem.

 

[Dave1001]

Youd be surprised how racist thoughts are so widely accepted. I remember I was in college, a marketing class when somehow we got to talking about race and sports.

So many of my classmates believed that blacks are physically the better athletes. Pointing to their high numbers in basketball and football cause they have some sort of better reflex gene that makes them jump higher or run faster.

I tried to argue that it was more social factors. that blacks play those sports more, and thats why their are higher numbers.

Hell, Im sure many people here think the same as my classmates.

I suspect a version of this is true, though not completely tied to race. Wasps have breeded their dogs, horses, etc. for centuries for optimal traits. I think it's reasonable that they did the same with West African slaves during the centuries of slavery. And indeed, the West African descendants of slavery do seem to dominate most if not all of the highest paid sports where explosive strength is critical.

 

[AmateurScientist]

I suspect a version of this is true, though not completely tied to race. Wasps have breeded their dogs, horses, etc. for centuries for optimal traits. I think it's reasonable that they did the same with West African slaves during the centuries of slavery. And indeed, the West African descendants of slavery do seem to dominate most if not all of the highest paid sports where explosive strength is critical.

Oh boy. Don't ever take a job with CBS Sports. Remember Jimmy the Greek?

Anyway, I have heard something similar to what I think you are referring to, but it wasn't as a result of selective breeding from slaves from West Africa.

Recently, I read or heard some discussion from a credible source (I don't remember what it was) that mentioned that only Kenyans are consistently dominant marathon runners from Africa, and that we don't routinely see natives of other regions or even countries from Africa who are consistently the best in the world at very long distance running. What we do see are persons from the region of West Africa who are consistently fast in sprinting and strong in other track events requiring explosive power and strength.

It just happens that nearly all the slaves in the Americas who came from Africa came from West African countries and regions. Virtually none, if not none altogether, originally came from Kenya, in East African. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that most black Americans who are descendants of slaves or former slaves originally had ancestors in West Africa. That would offer one possible heritable genetics explanation for why we tend to see a disproportionate number of black Americans who excel in sports relying on explosive speed and strength, whereas there are very few black American marathon runners, and even fewer who are world class long distance runners. It also offers one possible explanation for why it is only Kenyans in Africa who are such exceptional long distance runners, whereas so few other countries or regions in Africa can claim to produce consistently world class long distance runners.

I accept that there are likely cultural factors at work in the US to account for the sports observations as well, but I don't accept that as a complete explanation for the two phenomena mentioned above. The Kenyan runners phenomena is baffling if you disregard a genetic explanation.

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

He's the only one I can name as well. I like his science minute podcasts and if you haven't already, check out his books. I go to the Museum of Natural History a couple of times a year and would love to run into him. Actually, I would love to hear his take on this topic (underrepresentation of minorities in science/skepticism).

Yeah, I imagine he might be a great dinner companion or someone to share a few pitchers with. I'd love to pick his brain. I'll settle for listening to him and watching him on TV. I hope he has a long career in the spotlight.

Thanks for the tip about his podcasts and books.

(off topic, on YouTube or Google Video there is a clip of him taking Richard Dawkins to task for being too blunt and rude to Christians on his television series and in his appearances promoting The God Delusion. It's insightful, as Tyson clearly wants Dawkins to be more diplomatic in attacking anti-science).

AS

 

[brodski]

Heh. Good 'un.

In the early 1900s, by the way, it was commonly believed that it is quite natural for blacks to do well in the popular sport craze of the day--bicycle racism--because of their quick reflexes and natural strength. But they would never succeed in a cerebral sport like boxing, where strength is secondary to quick wits and the ability to out-think the opponent when in the ring. Just look at the evidence: who ever heard (in 1900) of a black boxer?

(Bolding mine).
Good god, even the bikes where bigots!

 

[Skeptic]

I'll take "Freudian Slips" for $100, Alex.

 

[a_unique_person]

Give Slingblade a break, Claus. She's had a harder life than you'll ever have, but she has the intelligence and strength to fight back every time.

 

[Ace_of_Sevens]

I've never understood the argument that because some people (a minority, though a sizable one) can't be easily pegged as a certain race, that somehow means race as a whole doesn't exist. The existance of cockapoos and beagles does not invalidate the existence of cocker spaniels and poodles.

 

[LostAngeles]

Give Slingblade a break, Claus. She's had a harder life than you'll ever have, but she has the intelligence and strength to fight back every time.

*raises hand* I'm sorry, but what about me?

What about my hard life and what I've gone through to stand up in spite of it all? I guess I can't be questioned about any assumptions, stances, thoughts, and ideas that I have. All of it should just be accepted and you should all just say, "Well, she's had a hard life."

Go f*** yourself.

Are you planning to say that's not what you really meant? Go f*** yourself. You already said the stupid bullsh**. Go f*** yourself.

Especially because Claus is right. Race, racialism, and racism is all bullsh** and we'd be better off if we, as individuals, just got over that.

 

[a_unique_person]

I was talking about Claus harassing her, as an individual. I made no comment at all on the right or wrong of what they were debating. It was pretty clear Slingblade was suffering distress.

 

[LostAngeles]

I was talking about Claus harassing her, as an individual. I made no comment at all on the right or wrong of what they were debating. It was pretty clear Slingblade was suffering distress.

Mmmhmmm. Please see the above post. Go and **** yourself.

 

[Jas]

Do you have a problem with St. Patricks day too? Its just the Irish separating themselves from the rest of us. No one ever seems to mind that, but Black history month is the devil bla bla bla.

Yeah, but on St Patrick's Day, everyone is Irish.

 

[a_unique_person]

Mmmhmmm. Please see the above post. Go and **** yourself.

I read it. I repeat, I was making no comment on the correctness or otherwise of Claus point of view. What I did observe was a forum member who was distressed.

 

[The Atheist]

Yeah, that's a great idea!

Samoan and other Polynesian people get Bright's Disease with far greater regularity than European people. With Polynesians making up over 25% of the population, this is an ongoing medical issue for NZ.

Thanks to adopting your "f### 'em" rule, we're going to cut funding to specific programs and initiatives set up to help Polynesians with the disease and their families.

Very sensible.

 

[LeFevre]

*raises hand* I'm sorry, but what about me?

What about my hard life and what I've gone through to stand up in spite of it all? I guess I can't be questioned about any assumptions, stances, thoughts, and ideas that I have. All of it should just be accepted and you should all just say, "Well, she's had a hard life."

Go f*** yourself.

Are you planning to say that's not what you really meant? Go f*** yourself. You already said the stupid bullsh**. Go f*** yourself.

Especially because Claus is right. Race, racialism, and racism is all bullsh** and we'd be better off if we, as individuals, just got over that.

Sorry but I reported this post.

 

[Mycroft]

Mmmhmmm. Please see the above post. Go and **** yourself.

Dude, as much as it goes against my instincts to defend AUP, you're way out of line. Disagree with him if you want, but your viscous attack is unwarranted.

 

[skeptifem]

Let's see how that works on other things, shall we?

"I don't see you as a man, at all. To me, you're just a person."

But he is a man, and has to deal with it every day.

"I don't see you as a child at all. To me, you're just a person."

But she is a child, and has to deal with that, every day.

"I don't see you as blind at all. To me, you're just a person."
"I don't see you as having no legs. To me...."
"I don't see you as impoverished. To me...."


So it's okay to take a crucial part of someone's identity and pretend it doesn't exist. And if we do that, everything will eventually work itself out without the need to do anything else.

The fact that people aknowledge that 'race' makes us different is the only reason people assign it as a crucial part of their identity. You are just re-enforcing racist ideas by deciding that its important.

I would really love to hear "I dont see you as a woman, I see you as a person, same as me", and NO, I wouldnt think that means they see me as a man. I dont assign this mega importance to my sex just because being a woman has put me through a lot in life, I can realize that a lot of people have a tough life, and regardless of wether it was because you were black or gay or because you were raised by abusive people or WHATEVER, everyone experiences pain. Some people have it tougher than others and the reason doesnt really matter to me, I have empathy and caring for anyone who has been wronged by others.

Except, some people ARE black, or Asian, or Amerind, or hispanic.
Where is the logic in pretending they are not? How does it help to deny that?

Just to make you feel better?

I dont understand what good it does to have a bunch of white guilt for things you never did, what does that accomplish?

I dont agree with claus much but I would say he was spot on, and he wasnt particularily mean to slingblade, she just took it really badly. Certainly multiple people in this thread have been meaner to CF than he has ever been in this thread to slingblade.