Black in America

[HarryKeogh]

I'd give very short odds on unders at 5%, so no bet here.

Smart man not to take that bet.

Have you seen the forum group picture? There you have a sampling of about 100 forum members from the last TAM.

 

[egslim]

No one will get it, nor will they agree. I already know that. But colorblindness is just another form of racism, and an insidious one, as it drives racism underground, so to speak, where we can't see it.

RACISM WITHOUT RACISTS: COLOR-BLIND RACISM AND THE PERSISTENCE OF RACIAL INEQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES. By Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. Lanham, Boulder, New York, and Oxford: Rowman & Littlefield 2003. Pp. 213.

Abstract: In Racism Without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in the United States, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva examines how whites use color-blindness as a tool to perpetuate racial inequality without themselves sounding racist. He asserts that white America’s justifications for the continued second-class status of African Americans stem from a new, post-Civil Rights racial ideology that he calls color-blind racism. Bonilla-Silva argues that color-blind racism, which is founded upon the belief that race no longer matters, is currently the dominant racial ideology in the United States. This Book Review ratifies Bonilla-Silva’s argument through an examination of the recent Supreme Court decisions on affirmative action in higher education, which demonstrably undervalue the persistence of racial inequality in the United States. Through the use of a color-blind ideology, the Justices mask the seriousness of racial inequality in the United States and may be hastening an end to racial progress before its time.

Bolding mine.
Is racial inequality really a racial problem? Or is it a symptom of the existence of barriers between different socioeconomic classes? What I mean is: if we compare blacks and whites living in the same economic situation 30 years ago, how do their descendents compare now?

I bet that if you compare the descendents of the top 10% of wealthy people 150 years ago with those of the bottom 10% back then, you will find on average the first group is better off financially today. No need to take the concept of race into account, this will be true in any capitalist country that has not undergone a revolution in the meantime.

 

[slingblade]

Aside from London and Moscow, I can't think of any European capitols.

Paris disappeared? Vienna is gone? Budapest, Warsaw, Berlin, no more?
Or are you just reveling in ignorance?

With the abundance of curriculum on black history, not to mention modern U.S. history which includes non-whites, I fail to see how you can say our curriculum is Eurocentric.

You aren't looking hard enough.

Our history was founded primarily upon the history of Europe, not Africa, Asia, or South America.

And you have just totally denied the history of the Chinese who came here to build the railroads, and stayed to become citizens.

You have totally denied the Amerinds who were here first and had their own civilizations that had never heard of Europe.

You have totally denied all the people brought from Africa, whose history had very little to do with Europe until Europe invaded and dragged them away.

So, just who is this "our" you speak of, hmmmm? Sounds pretty damned Eurocentric to me, and I think you just disproved your own point.

Furthermore, I think your assertion that "European = white" is ignorant. I suppose Spaniards, Serbs, and Turks are all caucasians?

So you have no idea where the Caucasus mountains are, is that right?

Calling them all "European" is the typical ignorant American view. A Russian is not a Ukranian anymore than a Chinese person is Korean. It's recognized as blatantly racist to call Asians "orientals," yet you see no problem in making a similar generalization about white people in Europe.

If there is a problem, you have failed to outline it.

 

[CFLarsen]

You're looking at it backwards, though. You have to acknowledge that for some people, because of their skin color, inequity and bigotry still exist. That they must deal with it every day, while you can choose to ignore it, if you're white.

To ignore it dismisses the problems they face on a daily basis. It dismisses them.

Where have I said that racism doesn't exist, or that inequity and bigotry doesn't exist?

You aren't separating them. You are acknowledging their daily reality. I call that respect, not separation. They are black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Amerind, or whatever they are. Your ignoring that won't make it easier for them to get along. To do that places the solution on them, instead of on us.

I am not ignoring that racism and racial stereotyping still exist. I just choose not to participate in it.

"Instead of changing my perceptions, my biases, my prejudices, I'll just change you! Presto! I don't see you as black!"

What on earth good does that do?

Possibly show that I don't want to be biased or prejudiced? How am I prejudiced, if I refuse to acknowledge that people should be treated differently based on the color of their skin?

In my class on White Identity

You have classes on "White Identity"?? Pardon me, but even the idea of having such a class would be considered extremely racist here.

, we explored the idea that to say "I don't see your color--you're just like me," is rather like saying "you're white, like me."
But they are neither white, nor is their daily life just like the average white person's life.

I have no idea how anyone could possibly reach such a conclusion. Please elaborate.

There are many things you get, every day, for being white, that you didn't ask for, but can't refuse. Their color is something they can't choose to see or not, deal with or not. They must deal with it. Why deny their reality?

When I walk into a store, for instance, no one follows me around because I might steal. But many blacks get followed........

I've mentioned "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" many, many, many times. I don't think anyone's ever read it though. But it can stillb e easily Googled, if anyone wants to bother. I doubt they will. It must be painful or something, I don't know.

It's almost as if you are playing a victim here. Why would you do that?

I made that statement so you could hopefully understand that just because I might look a little Indian doesn't mean you can think of me as an Indian. I may have a couple of "classic indian features," but they don't make me Cherokee. I'm not Cherokee. My family was never part of the Dawes Census. Oddly, many whites in Oklahoma, where I'm from, think they are part Cherokee. More oddly still, it's usually just the one "grandmother" or "great-grandmother."

That shows your prejudice and not mine. I did not see you as "Indian" at all.

Didn't that woman have an entire family? Parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins? So why aren't they also part of those families? How do so many people in Oklahoma have just one Indian ancestor?

Girl 6 was mentioned earlier. I met her at the pajama party, and I have to tell you, I had no idea she wasn't white. Do I have the right to tell her she is white, because I perceive her that way, or do I need to respect her self-identification, regardless of how she came by it?

Why would you feel the need to tell her anything about her skin color at all?

Am I black, if I say I am black?

My grandma always told me we were "Black Dutch." Look it up and find out what it means....

http://www.rosecity.net/cherokee/blackdutch.html

Fascinating. We should move beyond such bigotry. I'm doing my best.

Can you give an example of colorblind racism?

What is someone from the "Asian" race? "Asia" is a geographical distinction, while "black" is not.

Is high-cheekbones, thin lips and a long lasting tan what identifies a Cherokee? I can show you other "races" that have the same features, but are clearly not Cherokee. Now what?

 

[slingblade]

Bolding mine.
Is racial inequality really a racial problem? Or is it a symptom of the existence of barriers between different socioeconomic classes?

You've done little or no reading or reasearch. How did this socio-economic difference come about? Where did it begin, why, and how?

How about this: (http://www.alternet.org/story/16792/)

African Americans with a college diploma find themselves unemployed almost twice as often as whites with the same education. Hispanics must get by on only about half of the individual income that Asian Americans and whites divvy up among the bills.

And when blacks and Latinos are hospitalized with a heart problem, they are less likely than European Americans to receive catheterization, be sent home with beta blockers, or even be advised to take aspirin to protect their health.

While many Americans agree that open racial bigotry is generally a thing of the past, stark disparities in daily life persist, as documented by academic researchers, the U.S. Census Bureau and the Institute of Medicine.

[...]

As support for their claims, they point to the genetic evidence provided by the Human Genome Project that race has no biological foundation as a way to categorize people. They also cite a 1998 statement by the American Anthropological Association that explains "race" as a classification system invented in the 18th century to justify status differences between European settlers and conquered and enslaved peoples, then expanded to support efforts such as the Nazi extermination of Jews.

In August 2002, the American Sociological Association took a stand against such attempts to abolish "race" as untrue and irrelevant. In a statement, the professional society urged social scientists not to ignore race classifications or stop using them as a research tool, even though they may be biological fiction. "Those who favor ignoring race as an explicit administrative matter, in the hope that it will cease to exist as a social concept, ignore the weight of a vast body of sociological research that shows that racial hierarchies are embedded in the routine practices of social groups and institutions," the society wrote.

Bolding mine.

 

[CFLarsen]

"Those who favor ignoring race as an explicit administrative matter, in the hope that it will cease to exist as a social concept, ignore the weight of a vast body of sociological research that shows that racial hierarchies are embedded in the routine practices of social groups and institutions,"

I fail to see why that is a problem for those who do not want to distinguish between "races".

It sounds exclusively as if that is a problem for those who do want to distinguish between "races".

It's as if I - someone who strives not to resort to racism - am blamed for the racists that exist.

 

[slingblade]

Where have I said that racism doesn't exist, or that inequity and bigotry doesn't exist?

Okay, I'll keep trying.

HAVE YOU READ "UNPACKING THE INVISIBLE KNAPSACK" YET?

That's why I seem "defensive." The real word for it is pissed. I can't show you anything you won't read. I can quote all kinds of stuff, but if you won't read it, what good does it do?

I'm not allowed to post an entire article, and posting part of that article is ineffective. So why won't you read it?

READ THIS:

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/24_2/07_TXT.htm

READ THIS:

http://newsarchives.tamu.edu/stories/01/050301-4.html

READ THIS:

"Colorblind racism," as Marable, described it, is "less overt and articulated in race neutral language. The traditional color line has not vanished but has been reconfigured."

According to Marable, one of the most influential historians and authors of the black experience in America, deep structural barriers have been maintained in America, which he described as the three "p's:" prejudice, power, and privilege of white Americans. As an example of colorblind racism, he told the audience of an incident occurring several years ago in which he became very sick with a high fever.

He and his wife tried to hail down a taxi on Broadway in New York City to go to the hospital. As is the story of so many other blacks, he could not get a taxi to stop for him. "They were actually making U-turns on Broadway...on Broadway," says Marable. Finally, after six cabs refused to pick him up, one finally stopped.

This example was used to illustrate the "perniciousness of day to day racism which is just as powerful as apartheid and Jim Crow laws," Marable said.

Growing up in Dayton, Ohio, Marable remembers the difficulty his father had while trying to secure a loan for a nursery school he wanted to establish. "I could never forget that I was black," he said. "Despite our relatively middle class status, we lived in a separate but unequal world."

Marable refers to the stratification between the "haves" and "have-nots" as global apartheid, which can, in his belief, be eradicated. "Neo-liberal globalism is on our side," said Marable, "whiteness is on its way out!"

With the growth of the global economy and culture in general, racism can be done away with for everyone, including other discriminated groups such as Latinos, Asians, and women.

http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/archives/2004-04-02/features01.htm

Now. I have provided. Your task is to read, and to do more searching on your own. If you won't read, we can't discuss.

 

[slingblade]

You have classes on "White Identity"?? Pardon me, but even the idea of having such a class would be considered extremely racist here.

Were you in the class? Can you tell me the authors we read, the papers we wrote, and the films we saw? You know nothing about the class, yet you are so quick to label it racist. Based on what?

You wanted to know what it means to be white. You'd want to take that class, to get your answer.


May I remind everyone that the words OPPRESSION and DOMINANCE are in EVERY defintion of racism?

Can anyone tell me when whites were EVER OPPRESSED or DOMINATED by non-whites, or blacks, or whomever?

 

[CFLarsen]

Okay, I'll keep trying.

HAVE YOU READ "UNPACKING THE INVISIBLE KNAPSACK" YET?

That's why I seem "defensive." The real word for it is pissed. I can't show you anything you won't read. I can quote all kinds of stuff, but if you won't read it, what good does it do?

I'm not allowed to post an entire article, and posting part of that article is ineffective. So why won't you read it?

READ THIS:

http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bctwj/24_2/07_TXT.htm

READ THIS:

http://newsarchives.tamu.edu/stories/01/050301-4.html

READ THIS:

"Colorblind racism," as Marable, described it, is "less overt and articulated in race neutral language. The traditional color line has not vanished but has been reconfigured."

According to Marable, one of the most influential historians and authors of the black experience in America, deep structural barriers have been maintained in America, which he described as the three "p's:" prejudice, power, and privilege of white Americans. As an example of colorblind racism, he told the audience of an incident occurring several years ago in which he became very sick with a high fever.

He and his wife tried to hail down a taxi on Broadway in New York City to go to the hospital. As is the story of so many other blacks, he could not get a taxi to stop for him. "They were actually making U-turns on Broadway...on Broadway," says Marable. Finally, after six cabs refused to pick him up, one finally stopped.

This example was used to illustrate the "perniciousness of day to day racism which is just as powerful as apartheid and Jim Crow laws," Marable said.

Growing up in Dayton, Ohio, Marable remembers the difficulty his father had while trying to secure a loan for a nursery school he wanted to establish. "I could never forget that I was black," he said. "Despite our relatively middle class status, we lived in a separate but unequal world."

Marable refers to the stratification between the "haves" and "have-nots" as global apartheid, which can, in his belief, be eradicated. "Neo-liberal globalism is on our side," said Marable, "whiteness is on its way out!"

With the growth of the global economy and culture in general, racism can be done away with for everyone, including other discriminated groups such as Latinos, Asians, and women.

http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/archives/2004-04-02/features01.htm

Now. I have provided. Your task is to read, and to do more searching on your own. If you won't read, we can't discuss.

I asked you a question. In fact, I have asked you several questions, all of which you have ignored. So why don't we start with those, before you criticize me for reading some document you find so important that everyone just has to read?

Where have I said that racism doesn't exist, or that inequity and bigotry doesn't exist?

How am I prejudiced, if I refuse to acknowledge that people should be treated differently based on the color of their skin?

Can you please elaborate how anyone could possibly reach a conclusion that saying "I don't see your skin color" means "I see you as white"?

Why does it seem as if you are playing a victim here?

Why would you feel the need to tell Girl6 anything about her skin color at all?

Am I black, if I say I am black?

Can you give an example of colorblind racism?

What is someone from the "Asian" race? "Asia" is a geographical distinction, while "black" is not.

Is high-cheekbones, thin lips and a long lasting tan what identifies a Cherokee? I can show you other "races" that have the same features, but are clearly not Cherokee. Now what?

 

[CFLarsen]

Were you in the class? Can you tell me the authors we read, the papers we wrote, and the films we saw? You know nothing about the class, yet you are so quick to label it racist. Based on what?

You wanted to know what it means to be white. You'd want to take that class, to get your answer.

It is racist (here, anyway) because it refers to race. Sorry, but I live in a country where such racism is outlawed.

Actually, I'm not sorry. I'm glad.

May I remind everyone that the words OPPRESSION and DOMINANCE are in EVERY defintion of racism?

Can anyone tell me when whites were EVER OPPRESSED or DOMINATED by non-whites, or blacks, or whomever?

You want to take a stroll with me through some parts of Harlem? You want to look up the term "gweilo"?

 

[slingblade]

I asked you a question. In fact, I have asked you several questions, all of which you have ignored. So why don't we start with those, before you criticize me for reading some document you find so important that everyone just has to read?

Where have I said that racism doesn't exist, or that inequity and bigotry doesn't exist?

You said you wanted to ignore skin color.

How am I prejudiced, if I refuse to acknowledge that people should be treated differently based on the color of their skin?

No. Not "should be" but that they are. They are treated differently, and ignoring their race won't make that end.

Can you please elaborate how anyone could possibly reach a conclusion that saying "I don't see your skin color" means "I see you as white"?

Their skin color is there. They cannot ignore it. They don't have that choice. You can ignore it because it isn't your skin. If you say, "I think of you as just like me," and you are white, then you are denying the reality of being non-white. To be just like you is to be white.

Why does it seem as if you are playing a victim here?

Why does that feel like an ad hom?

I'm angry! I've tried for two years to get people to read the things that helped me form my opinions so you can see where I get my opinions. But instead of reading, all you guys do is ask more questions of me. I've provided the answers over and over and over and you won't read! I'm angry that you won't read what you keep demanding I provide, even when I provide it!

Why would you feel the need to tell Girl6 anything about her skin color at all?

Why doesn't she get to identify herself?

Am I black, if I say I am black?

Why would you say it unless you were? If you did, do I have the right to tell you that you're not? Are you white if you say you are white?

Can you give an example of colorblind racism?

I did. Sorry you missed it. Again.

What is someone from the "Asian" race? "Asia" is a geographical distinction, while "black" is not.

god damn, it beats all hell out of me. I can't answer you.

Is high-cheekbones, thin lips and a long lasting tan what identifies a Cherokee? I can show you other "races" that have the same features, but are clearly not Cherokee. Now what?

I already explained. Sorry it wasn't good enough to suit you. It's the only answer I have. Perhaps you can make one up for me?

ETA: I was NOT ignoring you. I was answering all your questions. You don't want to accept what I'm saying as at least being an answer, then what more is there to discuss?

 

[slingblade]

A third useful point I think that Blum makes is in his discussion of what "racism" is from the viewpoints of different people. While defining racial group views of racism is confusing and perhaps harmful in and of itself, Blum notes, he cites Blauner as offering, "Whites locate racism in color consciousness and its absence in color blindness." Thus, part of what often makes discussions about race and racism difficult is the cultural variations in definitions of "racism." Later in the book he discusses issues such as college admission and the role of race in admission practices. Recent Supreme Court rulings on this articulate some of Blum’s ideas well. He, I think, would agree that simple skin tone is not an adequate selection criteria, but other goals of producing a diverse group of graduates willing and ready to deal with a diverse world is a valuable goal that does not produce appreciable harm to anyone.

The Blauner quote is essential in what I have come to think regarding racism.

Please, I'm literally begging you, please, to read that short quote especially and think about what it means. Please. I can't ask or beg any more than this. Please read it. Please give it some critical thought. Please. Please.

Please.

 

[CFLarsen]

You said you wanted to ignore skin color.

How can that possibly become that I don't recognize that other people don't ignore skin color?

No. Not "should be" but that they are. They are treated differently, and ignoring their race won't make that end.

But that only explains why other people are prejudiced. Not how I am prejudiced. Please explain why.

Their skin color is there. They cannot ignore it. They don't have that choice. You can ignore it because it isn't your skin. If you say, "I think of you as just like me," and you are white, then you are denying the reality of being non-white. To be just like you is to be white.

Huh?? What kind of nonsense is that? I am not saying they are like me, I am saying that neither theirs or my skin color matters.

Why does that feel like an ad hom?

I'm angry! I've tried for two years to get people to read the things that helped me form my opinions so you can see where I get my opinions. But instead of reading, all you guys do is ask more questions of me. I've provided the answers over and over and over and you won't read! I'm angry that you won't read what you keep demanding I provide, even when I provide it!

Why are you so dependent on a single document? You should be prepared to defend your views with your own words. How would you react, if I told every woo to read "The Demon-Haunted World", and refuse to answer any of their questions? Is that what you think critical thinking is? Referring to some sacred text?

You defend your own points. Don't rely on others.

Why doesn't she get to identify herself?

That doesn't answer the question: Why would you feel the need to tell Girl6 anything about her skin color at all?

Why would you say it unless you were? If you did, do I have the right to tell you that you're not? Are you white if you say you are white?

That doesn't answer the question: Am I black, if I say I am black?

You said earlier that it is entirely up to people themselves to claim whatever "race" they want. So, am I black, if I say I am black?

I did. Sorry you missed it. Again.

Where? What post?

god damn, it beats all hell out of me. I can't answer you.

Then what are you complaining about? It isn't my - or anyone else's - problem if you can't define what it is you are so angry about.

I already explained. Sorry it wasn't good enough to suit you. It's the only answer I have. Perhaps you can make one up for me?

Do you really think that is a good enough answer? On this forum?

I understand if you feel this is an important issue to you, but you cannot possibly demand that I accept such nonsensical responses as you have offered.

 

[slingblade]

Okay, I can't do this anymore. I really don't understand what you want. You make no sense to me.

 

[egslim]

You've done little or no reading or reasearch. How did this socio-economic difference come about? Where did it begin, why, and how?

Please explain why those questions are relevant. It's a given that in any capitalist society at any one time both wealthy and poor exist. Their children will either benefit or suffer from their parent's position, in both cases undeservedly. That has nothing to do with race, except that skin colour may function as a marker to recognise the descendents from the poor 150 years ago.

African Americans with a college diploma find themselves unemployed almost twice as often as whites with the same education.

Education is definately not the only class-barrier. Parents from a wealthy class can give their kids valuable advice and/or references, etc. They may also have sent their children to more reputable colleges.
The point is that you need to control for all those variables, before the conclusion that the difference is because of racism is valid.

And when blacks and Latinos are hospitalized with a heart problem, they are less likely than European Americans to receive catheterization,

Is that because of skin colour, or because whites have on average better insurance? If the latter, then the solution should be to make better insurance available to everyone.

stark disparities in daily life persist,

I don't disagree with that.

"race" as a classification system invented in the 18th century to justify status differences between European settlers and conquered and enslaved peoples

People have been enslaving 'others' for thousands of years. If 'race' is a relatively new concept then it's a rationalisation for behaviour that's much older.

racial hierarchies are embedded in the routine practices of social groups and institutions

So the assumption they make is that racial hierarchies cannot be removed from society, and because of that they should be compensated for instead of eradicated. I disagree, it may take a long time, but history shows different groups (us vs them) can eventually merge.

But if you want to improve opportunities for poor blacks, then you should improve opportunities for all poor. Because failure to do so will increase tensions between different groups of poor. And that's a bad thing.

 

[CFLarsen]

Okay, I can't do this anymore. I really don't understand what you want. You make no sense to me.

It's perfectly simple: I have asked you pertinent questions about what you have claimed.

You know what this really is about? It's about applying critical thinking to your own beliefs. The hardest thing in the world. No, you clearly don't like it, but that's exactly why you should do your best to answer the questions about your claims.

Welcome to the world of skepticism.

Are you a skeptic?

 

[slingblade]

How can that possibly become that I don't recognize that other people don't ignore skin color?

I'm stupid. I don't know.

But that only explains why other people are prejudiced. Not how I am prejudiced. Please explain why.

The concept of ignoring skin color, but not doing anything else to correct inequities, won't make the inequities suddenly change. That's the best I can do to explain.

You, being white, find or locate racism in color-consciousness. You think ignoring or disregarding color consciousness is an absence of racism.

Huh?? What kind of nonsense is that? I am not saying they are like me, I am saying that neither theirs or my skin color matters.

It matters to them! It's the reason they get treated differently. It matters to them. To deny that it matters is denying current reality. Can't you see that? That makes no sense to you whatsoever?

Why are you so dependent on a single document?

I've quoted many documents, and did so in the post you quoted. Did you ignore them?

You should be prepared to defend your views with your own words.

I've tried until I've cried. My own words are inadequate compared to the sources I got them from. I can't understand why you want to hear my opinion rather than my sources. I thought sources were important. Why are you trying so hard to confuse and frustrate me? You aren't answering any of my questions, how is that fair?

How would you react, if I told every woo to read "The Demon-Haunted World", and refuse to answer any of their questions? Is that what you think critical thinking is? Referring to some sacred text?

This is so cruel. It really is. I would give, and have given, a "woo" that very book and asked them to read it first so we can discuss it. How on earth do you expect me to make a good argument by paraphrasing Sagan and not showing the source? Yes, I would give a woo that book, and THEN, after they read it, THEN we can discuss it. Why are you portraying that as...god, I don't know, as me being a moron?

I have answered your questions as best I can! Honest to god I have. I am bawling my eyes out right now because I have tried so very hard.

Why the FARK do you insist on evidence and then ask me to paraphrase the evidence instead? Why can't you read it? Please stop tormenting and makuing fun of me! Please! You are killing me!

You defend your own points. Don't rely on others.

But that's where I learned it from! I dind't get it out of my own head, I learned it from those sources, and I agree with them, and they say it better than I can, and you could understand me if you'd just please read my sources.

That doesn't answer the question: Why would you feel the need to tell Girl6 anything about her skin color at all?

I DONT!!! Is she black because she says she is?

That doesn't answer the question: Am I black, if I say I am black?

I DON'T KNOW!!! I'm white because I know I"m white. Idon't know how I know it. I know that I fit all the characteristics for white people, that all my ancestors were white as far back as we can go, so I say I'm white. Isn't that enough? What does make me white?

Am I white because I say so? I don't know, but I do say so. If you tried to tell me I wasn't white, I'd argue with you.

You said earlier that it is entirely up to people themselves to claim whatever "race" they want. So, am I black, if I say I am black?

I don't know. Why do you want me to say whatever it is you want me to say? What do you want me to say?

Where? What post?

Post 80.

Then what are you complaining about? It isn't my - or anyone else's - problem if you can't define what it is you are so angry about.

I am angry that you won't read my sources, but you keep demanding to know why I think what I htink. I think it because I read many articles, which I have referenced, and I came to agree. I hope that if you read them, you might come to agree. I'll never know, because you won't read them.

Do you really think that is a good enough answer? On this forum?

Evidently not. Please tell me how to speak.

I understand if you feel this is an important issue to you, but you cannot possibly demand that I accept such nonsensical responses as you have offered.

No. please accept no more of my nonsense. I am totally nonsensical. I am, frankly, a moron.

 

[CFLarsen]

I think you need to edit your post. I'll wait until then.

 

[HarryKeogh]

Slingblade, it's really not worth getting bent out of shape over it. CFLarsen gets off on that. Don't waste your time and energy with his antagonistic, condescending debating style.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Okay, I can't do this anymore. I really don't understand what you want. You make no sense to me.

Ummm...then don't. No one invited you or anyone else to turn this into an impassioned, defensive plea for some cause. Get off your soapbox already.

The OP asked in a neutral, polite fashion for input from black Americans or anyone else who wished to comment about what it is like to be black in America. Frankly, I wasn't looking for some Politically Correct (TM) brand of nonsense parrotted straight from the mouth of some university professor with an agenda. I can read that practically anywhere.

Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele have written books and essays and given lectures for decades about the state of black and white relations, and about racism against blacks in America. They speak intelligently on the subject, from an academic perspective and from personal experience. Your nonsense about colorblind racism is just that -- nonsense.

Your high degree of passion about the subject does not give it extra weight. If it hurts you or causes you to become upset to read or post in this thread, then don't. We won't hold it against you.

Now, please, anyone else, return to the topic at hand. Oh, and for the record, I welcome any discussion on the apparent relative paucity of black persons on the JREF forum, at TAM, or in skeptic circles, as it probably needs to be addressed. Any theories about why that may be so?

AS