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Bitcoin - Part 2

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lomiller said:
Other than speculation:

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Purely speculative “assets” like bitcoin are not meaningfully different than online gambling IMO, and should never be viewed or presented as investments. Yes, this has been said before, but who cares if it’s repeated. It’s something that can’t be repeated often enough.
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All of your questions are irrelevant. Bitcoin is just a digital asset that is subject to the vagaries of a market that still hasn't decided what to make of it. Profits or losses can be made from it just like any other commodity but otherwise bitcoin has no more "inherent" value than a used postage stamp.

Everything else anybody has to say about bitcoin is pure hype or CT.

lomiller said:
Are you going to address the point that was actually made are you just changing the subject like you have been doing for years?
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I didn't see any point being made. When the foundational sentence is just a string of nonsense then you can be sure that the rest of the post is equally valueless.

Falsely claiming that I equated bitcoin to kiddie porn then providing arguments that it is different is not making a point. It is putting up a strawman.
 
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Meanwhile the current price of Bitcoin in USD is 3,567.92

The predicted Christmas rush price spike didn't occur.

I'm feeling pretty sad for all the people that mortgaged their homes to invest in Bitcoin when the taxi drivers were talking about what a great investment it is.
 
psionl0 said:
Everything else anybody has to say about bitcoin is pure hype or CT.
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Roger Ramjets said:
lomiller said:
Purely speculative “assets” like bitcoin are not meaningfully different than online gambling IMO, and should never be viewed or presented as investments. Yes, this has been said before, but who cares if it’s repeated. It’s something that can’t be repeated often enough.
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This is true in practice, but Bitcoin is touted as being more than just a vehicle for speculation. According to the OP it is "superior to all other currencies in existence" and "will change the face of the planet". This vague promise is encouraging people to 'HODL' and stop the price from collapsing, and it is constantly being talked up by libertarian evangelists who desperately want it to succeed. How long can they keep the dream alive?
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Case in point. Both hype and CT in the one post.
 
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psionl0 said:
Profits or losses can be made from it just like any other commodity but otherwise bitcoin has no more "inherent" value than a used postage stamp.
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This used postage stamp sold for $9,480,000 in 2014, which probably supports your point.



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Norm
 
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novaphile said:
I'm feeling pretty sad for all the people that mortgaged their homes to invest in Bitcoin when the taxi drivers were talking about what a great investment it is.
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If they can afford their mortgage payments then they might still escape whole given time (I won't mention the dreaded P-word).

If they gambled with money they can't afford to lose in the hopes of a quick profit then they are either fools who deserve no sympathy or they have a gambling disorder and I have some sympathy for people who have an affliction like that.
 
fromdownunder said:
This used postage stamp sold for $9,480,000 in 2014,
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I love it when some filthy rich dude pays a fortune for a worthless piece of junk - that's the kind of 'redistribution of wealth' I could get behind!

The British Guiana 1c magenta is 'worth' so much because it is the only one still known to exist. That's pretty rare, but if it was even rarer it could be worth a lot more. If I had this stamp I would immediately cut it in half, burn one half and sell the other one for an obscene profit! The purchaser could do the same of course, until the eventual owner has an 'asset' worth more than the entire wealth of the Planet!

But what has this got to do with Bitcoin? Well you see, like the British Guiana 1c magenta, Bitcoin is also being issued in limited quantity. And just like that stamp, Bitcoins are constantly being lost, so over time they will become rarer and rarer. Eventually there will only be one Bitcoin left! (not to worry though, because you don't need a whole Bitcoin to use it. One 'Satoshi' is equal to 0.00000001 bitcoin, and no doubt ways will be found to work with even smaller units). And when that Bitcoin is lost...

Due to this inevitably increasing rarity, there really is no upper limit to the Bitcoin price. So buy as many as you can now and HODL them until all the others have been lost - then you will own the entire World!


Nearly 4 Million Bitcoins Lost Forever
According to new research from Chainalysis, a digital forensics firm that studies the bitcoin blockchain, 3.79 million bitcoins are already gone for good based on a high estimate—and 2.78 million based on a low one. Those numbers imply 17% to 23% of existing bitcoins
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It's this leakage from Bitcoin that put me off the whole concept.

People die all the time. What's the chances that they are so well organised that someone has all their passwords, knows what a bitcoin wallet is and how to get the money out?

Most of the stories are about people that know they've lost all their coin.

There are untold numbers of stories about people who have died without anyone knowing that they had bitcoins.

Remember no one knows what happened to the person known online as Satoshi Nakamoto.

His/her coins haven't been spent.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
Bitcoins are constantly being lost, so over time they will become rarer and rarer. Eventually there will only be one Bitcoin left!
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You really don't believe in making sense, do you?

novaphile said:
It's this leakage from Bitcoin that put me off the whole concept.
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That's the aspect that puts you off? I would have thought that the energy expended in mining bitcoins was a bigger turn off.

Don't forget that Roger is only selectively quoting. What he is not quoting is the fact that the article assumes that at least 30% of the "hodled" coins (including those said to be mined by Satoshi) are lost.

He also forgot to quote the article's sensible outlook.
In the future, more bitcoins will be lost. But the rate at which they disappear will be much lower than in the past since, now that they’re so valuable, people will be more vigilant about keeping track of them
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psionl0 said:
In the future, more bitcoins will be lost. But the rate at which they disappear will be much lower than in the past since, now that they’re so valuable, people will be more vigilant about keeping track of them
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Problem with that prediction is it relies on Bitcoin continuing to be 'valuable'. In reality it has dropped by 83% and continues to slide, so many people are becoming disheartened and less vigilant. And when it drops below $1...


But don't despair Bitcoiners - the price may have just dropped to $3,410.23, but Tommy Lee has it covered:-

‘Resilient’ Bitcoin Price Will Rally to $25,000 [Eventually]: Tom Lee
“Strangely, I just think that’s a good, fair value for bitcoin, but the timing of that’s going to be difficult,” Lee said (video above, comments start at 2:40), causing laughter to erupt throughout the Fox Business set.

He continued:

"[E]specially driven by millennials, and outside the US, there’s an interest in a digital currency, digital asset store of value that’s not traditional money."

But while Lee continues to stick by his bullish take on bitcoin, even as the market turns more and more bearish, Stuart Varney isn’t buying it.

“Tom, I think you’ve got a surefire way of getting on television, Varney said as he concluded the interview. “Make an outrageous claim about bitcoin and then come on and talk about it.”
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psionl0 said:
All of your questions are irrelevant.
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psionl0 said:
I didn't see any point being made.
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IOW once again you refuse to actually address any of the points anyone makes. No doubt within a few pages you will once again lie and say you've "counter every argument" even though you've never given a real response to anything, and likely never will.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
That would be fine if bitcoiners took responsibility for their slackness. Sadly however, as usual the taxpayers will end up paying for it.

IMO the police should just walk away from this one. Nobody was held at gunpoint, no safes were cracked, and no actual money was stolen - just a bunch of idiots gave their 'virtual currency' to an incompetent 'exchange' that lost it. They wanted to work outside the system, so why should we have to clean up the mess?
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The police never investigated when my Everquest II account was hacked and my plat (worth ~$100 on the open market at the time). Then again I never though of reporting it to anyone but the games support team, no doubt the the police would have laughed had I tried. In EVE online digital assets worth thousands of real $ are regularly stolen, scammed or destroyed in "covert actions", in fact the games developers encourage it as part of the game.
 
lomiller said:
I doubt collectors will be clamoring to acquire old bitcoin wallets 50 years from now. Some things are collectable some are not.
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The point was actually that some things which have no wealth generating capacity and no intrinsic value in and of themselves can be worth obscene amounts of money to some people. Stamps are one of these things. Art is another. Bitcoin is yet another.


Norm
 
lomiller said:
IOW once again you refuse to actually address any of the points anyone makes. No doubt within a few pages you will once again lie and say you've "counter every argument" even though you've never given a real response to anything, and likely never will.
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Wrong. This is just you determined to label anything I post "unresponsive" no matter what I post (ie you don't even read it).

For example, you chopped off every single thing in my post that explained why Roger wasn't making a point.
 
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