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Merged bin Laden's death / bin Laden not really dead CTs

People can be skeptical about the kill, and admit a lie is possible, but still conclude, based on the evidence, it is not probable.
True enough, but the only evidence we have is from POTUS (etc.). Years ago, we were presented with "evidence" that Iraq had WMD's. Is it really that crazy to wonder if we are being lied to again?

As an example for sufficiency of evidence, imagine police arrest a man for some crime. The police take a couple pictures of the scene. When the case is brought before a judge, a judge may rely completely on the police report, and not look at picture evidence. Why? Can't police lie? What if the pictures could confirm what the police reported is true? Well yes, but the judge could consider the police an authority on the incident, and having no reason to believe they are being deceitful, rely only on the given testimony.
My bolding.
Is that really the case here? I understand your point, but find problem with the "real world" example as well. I am uncomfortable with the amount of trust our legal system places on the police as well (lol- now I am starting to sound like a "nutter", huh?)

Of course, if someone has a deep distrust of this authoritative source, then this does not apply. But while some skepticism of government I think is normal and healthy, that level of deep distrust I don't think is very common outside CT circles.

Aren't we, as good skeptics, supposed to avoid depending on trust in this fashion? Many people trust their preachers when they tell them Jesus was a zombie.
 
Is there evidence that OBL is dead?

no. apparently we are to just take their word on it.

And bin Laden's daughter's. And Pakistan's.

There's a lot more evidence that he's dead than there is that he isn't, that's for damn sure (a bit of a tongue twister, I know).
 
True enough, but the only evidence we have is from POTUS (etc.). Years ago, we were presented with "evidence" that Iraq had WMD's. Is it really that crazy to wonder if we are being lied to again?

But I didn't say crazy. Just, all things considered, not probable we are being lied to. At least, not probable based on the evidence we have.

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Is that really the case here? I understand your point, but find problem with the "real world" example as well. I am uncomfortable with the amount of trust our legal system places on the police as well (lol- now I am starting to sound like a "nutter", huh?)

Aren't we, as good skeptics, supposed to avoid depending on trust in this fashion? Many people trust their preachers when they tell them Jesus was a zombie.

Trust is a part of how we learn about the world. It can be blind trust. Or it can be informed consideration.
 
From the source above:


I find this troubling. I read this as they captured him, then killed him?
I can't imagine this being a logical course of action.

They either capture him (which I would imagine is the "perfect world" scenario) or (only slightly less perfect) they kill him either when he resists or immediately upon identifying him.

I can't understand a scenario which would have them capture him (presumably including handcuffs) and then kill him only minutes later.

Your problem might be that you're looking for semantic certainty in somebody's paraphrase of somebody else's paraphrase of somebody else's non-expert recollection of something that happened quickly during a period of extreme stress.

And that's leaving out the non-native English speakers providing the recollection and one of the paraphrases.

Not to mention that what you find troubling in a commando raid is probably not indicative of anything at all, unless you're a veteran commando with lots of raiding experience to draw on.
 
When you consider what's at stake if a trivially easy to expose lie is exposed I'd have to assume Obama has a still bleeding head wound for this to be fake. There's not even a compelling reason for his administration to try. Further, it's been several days and nobody's denying it and virtually every radical Islam group out there are instead vowing revenge.

It doesn't make sense to me to think it's a lie.
 
Further, it's been several days and nobody's denying it and virtually every radical Islam group out there are instead vowing revenge.


This to me is hugely convincing, and I haven't seen any serious attempt at countering the argument.

Al Qaeda would probably be able to actually topple a US president and shake the American intelligence establishment to its foundations if they were able to prove that this was all a huge lie and OBL is actually alive.

This hasn't happened so far. If it doesn't happen in the next few weeks, I'd say just based on this that the likelihood OBL is alive is nil.
 
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I believe Bin Laden is dead because I like President Obama. But can someone give me the scientific explanation of how the DNA evidence that his team say they have works?

What do they match it with? His own DNA that they collected before he became America's enemy? Or do they match it to his parents' or siblings' DNA? Thanks in advance for the explanation.
 
The event happened just a few days ago, I know it's the age of the internet, and the public's attention span has shrunk to a mere hours if not minutes, but could you guys wait until the story fully unfolds before you deny the event?

The evidence will surely be presented in due time. You won't get 100% of the information ready on your plate right away.
 
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Is there anyone at all in any sort of position to know who is arguing that he's alive?
 
1) What evidence do we have? Testimony from our president. I am not interested in a partisan pee-pee contest. I like this president, didn't like the last one. There is clear evidence that the last one lied about a serious matter. Shouldn't we seriously question these things now, despite political affiliation?

Since this is not a Conspiracy Theories thread, we can actually learn something from this question...

The way to approach it is as follows: Hypothesis Testing. So in this case we have two basic hypotheses -- one, bin Laden is dead. The other, bin Laden is still alive.

Let's flesh these out a little. In the first hypothesis, we are actually claiming that bin Laden is dead as a result of a military special operation launched by the United States, which infiltrated the compound he was staying at in Pakistan and shot him to death in the ensuing melee.

This hypothesis has a great deal of circumstantial evidence. For starters, the result and the mechanism proposed are plausible -- bin Laden is or was not bulletproof, and the USA has capable special forces with the ability to carry out this sort of thing. Second-hand reporting indicates that an operation took place at that location and at that date (tweets, news video, etc.).

So the counter-hypotheses must address the points at which the above hypothesis is at its weakest. Let us accept, therefore, that the op happened and that someone was killed. The alternative, therefore, is that either (a) bin Laden was captured, (b) bin Laden escaped, or (c) bin Laden was never there in the first place and some other poor sod got whacked.

Is there any evidence for the three above? Not really. All I've seen from any quarter is "doubt." Whether this doubt is reasonable or unreasonable misses the point. The simple fact is, the alternative has no evidence in support. It therefore cannot be a stronger hypothesis. At best, it is still plausible and thus still competitive, but under no circumstances is it the leading hypothesis.

The initial hypothesis also provides circumstantial evidence for bin Laden's positive identification. Mentioned in the press are some plausible, definitive test results, including DNA. Now, admittedly, these results are not independently verifiable, because they cannot be replicated without access to the same samples, or without verifying the chain of custody. But that doesn't mean these tests can be simply ignored.

What about the alternatives? Is there any reason to believe this test must be wrong? That there's a possible alternate explanation? That would be no.

Other folks have pointed out that the absence of negative evidence is itself evidence against the alternatives -- if bin Laden is still alive, why is no one claiming he is? Why doesn't he issue another stupid tape with another bogus fatwa thumbing his nose at the USA? Well, these arguments also fall into the category of "circumstantial," indeed are little more than an Appeal to Silence.

But it does suggest one way in which the alternative could be proven.

So... what evidence would you like to see? And how much more "proven" would this make it, in your mind?

As you think about that question, riddle me this: Is there evidence that non-avian dinosaurs are actually extinct? It's the same kind of thing.

Bottom line is, it is possible that bin Laden is still alive, but there is no compelling reason to believe this is so. The rational conclusion is that he is dead.
 
"I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction," Clarence Darrow

I had a drink in Usama's honor tonight, two shots and a splash.
 
Did you see the photo of the situation room in the White House? Either they are all great actors, or there was something quite tense happening. Now, all those people; Can you imagine that all of them will carry the secret to their graves that Osama was not killed last weekend? Can you imagine that an aircraft carrier full of sailors and pilots could keep silent about this? Can you imagine that there is no danger of another Wikileaks? No danger of a foreign spy getting that information and using it against us?

It would be actually impossible to keep something totally unplanned from happening.
 
My take on this all:

1.) No remaining physical evidence that we have access to for additional testing. This means what evidence there is, is all there is going to be from here on out.

2.) The word of the President and the Department of Defense, Al-Queda, and OBL's family. The Taliban are the sole group saying otherwise.

3.) Photo and video footage that will not be officially released.

Not much here to go on. However, there's something else that comes to mind:

If the President lied about whacking OBL, what kind of situation would that create? He'd have elevated himself, yes. It would be an especially precarious position, because all they'd have to do is have OBL in a video with additional elements showing when the video was taken. Then Obama's credibility, and the USA in general, would suffer severe and long term damage. Additionally, it would greatly add to Al-Queda's credibility.

Thus per my thinking, since Al-Queda did NOT claim OBL was alive, with accompanying video, and in addition promoting the second-hand-man to top dog status, it is very unlikely that this is the case. All the benefits would come with exposing the lie, and the only way that might not be the case is if going along with it somehow outweighed the alternative. Which I think very unlikely.

So, to summarize, it's a possibility that the OBL killing was faked, but I doubt it very much.
 
I can't imagine any U.S. Marshal being willing to be the one to protect bin Laden in WITSEC.
 
Maybe they should have cut OBL into tiny pieces, and sent every piece to every doubter on Earth so they can make their own home-made DNA testing.
 
The helicopter. Why would they blow it up? Isnt pakistan ment to be an ally? I'm pretty sure they would have secured the area and took out all the guards anyway. Is it a case of it got taken out but didnt want to act like anything went wrong on the mission?

I am guessing this is already answered in this thread. Was it a new technology stealth helicopter.
Any one here who doesn't think some enterprising Pakistani would sell it.
Rumor I heard (not from a conspiracy site) was they tried to destroy it with thermite grenades (I am not kidding). I guess thermite works better on the WTC.
 
1.) No remaining physical evidence that we have access to for additional testing. This means what evidence there is, is all there is going to be from here on out.


Not necessarily. The papers are now reporting that the picture of the remains of the helicopter the Seals used showed it to be a previously unknown stealth aircraft.

The use of such a helicopter in Pakistan would be evidence that the US was up to something very important. That's circumstantial evidence, and not at all convincing on its own. But it's still evidence.
 
Not necessarily. The papers are now reporting that the picture of the remains of the helicopter the Seals used showed it to be a previously unknown stealth aircraft.

The use of such a helicopter in Pakistan would be evidence that the US was up to something very important. That's circumstantial evidence, and not at all convincing on its own. But it's still evidence.

Hrm! Good point. I'd forgotten that.
 
3.) Photo and video footage that will not be officially released.


But that has been shared within the government, including some members of the Republican party in Congress who have agreed with the Democratic president that the materials shouldn't be released.
 
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