Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[manofthesea]

CN-
Would you agree then that the emotional attachment to bigfoot by certain proponents overrides their scientific training? It almost seems like shaping the evidence to get a desired result, rather than using the existing evidence if it leads to an undesired result.

I'm no scientist, but I respect CN. Most others are two-bit chimers.
But, I guess scientist types don't grow up climbing, hiking, fishing etc.
These are the people who have had encounters.

As far as people basing their bleef on the PGF, it's really not that great of an amount, considering the amount of students that must have taken courses from certain "doctors of science". But then, they're supposed to be smart, right?

 

[manofthesea]

I'm not sure if I understood your question...

Since the bodies of moose, grizzlies and bisons are a product of evolution, then I would say they are of the "natural size". Actually I think it would be better to write their sizes are optimal for the ecologic niches they occupy.

Relative to mice, bears are giants.

Some species from the megafauna reached larger sizes because environmental conditions allowed such adaptations. However, animals that reach large sizes quite often are more specialized and thus more vulnerable to environmental changes. When conditions changed (climate and introduction of humans) they were not able to adapt.

Again, the large size frequently attributed to bigfeet (an indication of a high degree of specialization to a certain set of conditions or niche) is not a good match for the alleged generalistic, highly adaptative behavior of the creature. Another implausibility IMHO.

So, you agree then? Bigfeets can be BIG. Bigfeets are mostly relegated to the PNW, I'm not referring (nor will I ever) to skunk ape, donkey foot (or whatever), and all the rest. Don't tell me about burning eyes, etc.

ETA: Did I fail to mention that I am not impressed with any Great Displays of Pendantics?

 

[manofthesea]

Joke of the Day

(See Title)
I need a little perspective. I (woo) may be wrong, but is most of the criticism directed at sasquatch purely the result of an attack on American culturalism?

Let's say some clown or person show up at some exclusive auction house, had a few connections, and tried to sell off some (antique) footprint PHOTOS of the abominable snowyguy. Wouldn't that be the MOST OUTRAGEOUS WOO MOMENT IN HISTORY?

 

[LTC8K6]

Bigfeets are mostly relegated to the PNW

Evidence? "relegated" suggests that they ranged further in the past.

Why aren't we over run with them? Plenty of food, no competiton, humans not hunting them, vast areas of empty wilderness to roam freely...

 

[kitakaze]

Bigfeets are mostly relegated to the PNW, I'm not referring (nor will I ever) to skunk ape, donkey foot (or whatever), and all the rest. Don't tell me about burning eyes, etc.

Was that a joke or did you mean that seriously? It's kind of hard to tell. LTC said it best, bigfoot is everywhere yet nowhere. I like when people like Meldrum try to slide things like 'in the mountainous regions of the Pacific Northwest' by with a straight face. It's really hard to take someone like that seriously when they won't acknowledge the elephant in the room.

I have an idea for t-shirt. We just stick LTC's 'bigfoot is everywhere yet nowhere' quote under a nice big Mangani bigfoot sighting map. Give them away at *insert next Woods and Wildmen event here*, it'll be a riot!

 

[Correa Neto]

Hmmm... the above has some parallels to how I characterized my own stance on Cryptomundo a few months ago.

I think it summarizes relatively well the position of many -if not most- evil JREF denialist scoffics.

I'm not even sure I would say I believe they are real, just that I don't dismiss the possibility on an a priori basis. I am open to either a zoological or sociopsychological explanation, such as Daegling's prankster-ecomessiah hypothesis.

Well, more than a proponent came here thinking we were not convinced because we have not really investigated the subject. However, we did our homework.

Since this thread is on the PGF, I'll quote a recent e-mail I sent that touched on the subject.

At the bigfoot episode from "Best Evidence" they had a guy in a bigfoot costume doing the "Patty walk"; his movments were measured, digitized and compared with PGF subject. There was a pretty good match. Meldrum was watching and conceeded it was very similar.

The problem is that he, as well as some people who perfomed the test*, was still clinging to things such as "it was not exactly identical" and "that suit was much more advanced than what was available back in the 60s".

So, my personal opinion is that some proponents, for a number of reasons, will never change their minds, regardless of the quality of the evidence presented.

* We must be carefull here, since there was editing. Some out-of-context quoting may be involved.

ETA: Welcome to the evil denialist scoffics' lair!

 

[LTC8K6]

I have an idea for t-shirt. We just stick LTC's 'bigfoot is everywhere yet nowhere' quote under a nice big Mangani bigfoot sighting map

My lawyer would like to speak with you...

 

[Correa Neto]

(It's not like on CSI) If you're unaware of the events as the tragedy unfolded, that is fine. The line that the two missing climbers rapelled on was cut. There were footprints leading away from the snow cave.
I wanted to know if the distress call was taped.

Real life forensics are not like CSI, but can still gather a lot of evidences.
The way you decribe it, a crime can not be dismissed, and at least some forensic investigation must have been made, such as autopsy.
So, what about the teeth marks, for example?
And the footprints? How they were?

I'm no scientist, but I respect CN. Most others are two-bit chimers.
But, I guess scientist types don't grow up climbing, hiking, fishing etc.
These are the people who have had encounters.

We discussed a similar line of reasoning here several times. The "lab rat" line is based on a flawed sterotype.

Biologists and geologists (just to name two professions with several subdivisions) are constantly making field reasearch; some are outstanding outdoorsmen/women. Don't be surprised if you find out that some of those folks spend more time in the field than many seasoned hunters and hikers. And some of them work deep within bigfoot country.

Perhaps you should consider a paradigm shift...

So, you agree then? Bigfeets can be BIG. Bigfeets are mostly relegated to the PNW, I'm not referring (nor will I ever) to skunk ape, donkey foot (or whatever), and all the rest. Don't tell me about burning eyes, etc.

I think such a creature is possible, but not plausible, for the reasons that were already exposed.

As for (alleged) bigfeet distribution and morphology, this issue has been recently discussed here (check posts at pages 142, 160, 176 and 177, for example). And the problem, as usually, lies in methodology, criteria and standards. For example, where and how do you draw the line between a reliable bigfoot description and an unreliable one?
Why a report say, from Iowa is less reliable than one from Washington?

ETA: Did I fail to mention that I am not impressed with any Great Displays of Pendantics?

Am I being pedantic?
I don't think so. I am trying, as think we all must try, to be as precise as possible to avoid any misinterpretations as well as errors from my part. Language is a tricky thing. I take an extra care when when I am not using my first language.

I need a little perspective. I (woo) may be wrong, but is most of the criticism directed at sasquatch purely the result of an attack on American culturalism?

No. Let me present you an example of why its not. At some points there were refferences to the Mapinguari, a mythical Brazillian beast as a possible bigfoot-like animal (or a giant sloth). Here are some of my criticisms:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1622504&postcount=19
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2304739&postcount=1122
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2357805&postcount=2309
I think they demonstrate that the critics to bigfoot research have nothing to do with American culture. They have to do with lousy methodology, criteria and standards.

 

[Correa Neto]

...snip...This "declaring things to be hard/impossible without doing any research" business is giving me major "9/11 Truther" flashbacks.

No wonder some claim there are conspiracies to hide the "fact" that bigfeet are real...

 

[William Parcher]

Something BIG in Footery is coming in December.. I can't wait.. Sorry to tease, but that's all the info I have right now..

Gimlin is going to confess on Christmas Eve?

 

[kitakaze]

Why a report say, from Iowa is less reliable than one from Washington?

I particularily enjoyed one proponent's retort to that question here consisting of a jovial exclamation of "Because it's Iowa!"

No wonder some claim there are conspiracies to hide the "fact" that bigfeet are real...

I remember when I first signed up at cryptomundo a while back. One of the first things I asked there before Coleman and Woolheater started deleting my posts concerned what the staff of the Gifford Pinchot National Forest know or don't know concerning bigfoot. It's one of those really easy questions that when posed tells you much more about bigfootery than anything about bigfoot. Goes a bit like this:

Troublemakerskeptic: So what do the GPNF staff know about bigfoot?

TheTruthIsOutThere: Oh, they know, brother. They'll smile and nod and say 'bear' if you ask them, though.

LegitimacyQuest: No, no, no! Truth, you're playing right into scoftic hands. No cover-up people. No cover-up! Regroup!

dropablog: *delete* *delete* *delete*

 

[Drewbot]

What do they know Kitakaze? Or, what is it that is rumored that they know? I have not heard of the GPNF reference before.

 

[Judaculla]

I remember when I first signed up at cryptomundo a while back. One of the first things I asked there before Coleman and Woolheater started deleting my posts concerned what the staff of the Gifford Pinchot National Forest know or don't know concerning bigfoot. It's one of those really easy questions that when posed tells you much more about bigfootery than anything about bigfoot.

A few years ago in a quasi-systematic fashion, I contacted via e-mail or phone several national forests and state fish and wildlife/DNRs to see if anyone had any information on reported sightings or activity. I also did the same with trail camera companies.

I got a mix of responses, including:
1) No reponse
2) An actual response, but in the negative
3) Redirection to an individual staff member--retired in both cases.
4) Redirection to another government office

Six Rivers directed me to the local sheriff's office. The person I spoke to was very kind, but said she had never received a report of anything like that.

If I recall, the Gifford Pinchot folks said for me to talk to the state DNR. I called the Washington state office and e-mailed. No response.

The most interesting ones were the Idaho and Utah DNRs. Both directed me to retired staffers who had made it something of a hobby. I could never locate the Idaho retiree. The Utah retiree had made it a practice of asking folks about bigfoot encounters when they came in for any business (i.e. measuring of game, permits, etc.). He had elicited a fair number of stories, a few with a paranormal bent to them. He kept telling me, "I don't know what we're dealing with here." He seemed lucid, but obviously thought there might be a supernatural aspect to the phenomena.

In all, I probably contacted twenty or thirty offices and companies combined. That's all I got, and I don't buy that there was a conspiracy to hide information either. I'm confident the folks who didn't blow me off as a loon told me what they knew.

Perhaps if I had conducted a survey with greater breadth and depth (i.e. more offices, more staffers at each office), I would have run into a few more individuals with anecdotes. I don't think there is much beyond that.

I hope that helps.

 

[Babylon Sister]

What do they know Kitakaze? Or, what is it that is rumored that they know? I have not heard of the GPNF reference before.

On the GP there is a place called Ape Canyon. As I understand it, the story is that it was named so after several miners(?) in a cabin were attacked by a (or several) Bigfoot.

I don't remember the time frame, but the 1920s sticks in my mind.

 

[kitakaze]

A few years ago in a quasi-systematic fashion, I contacted via e-mail or phone several national forests and state fish and wildlife/DNRs to see if anyone had any information on reported sightings or activity. I also did the same with trail camera companies. ...

Very interesting story, Judaculla. Particularily Utah paranormal bigfoot guy. BTW, have you ever posted that anecdote on BFF? If so, what was the response like? I don't remember having seen it though I very easily could have missed it.

Welcome to the board, I'm looking forward to your input. If you find yourself being cynical about the evidence leading nowhere then at least take heart in the true insights that the Skookum Casts and the MDF's offer. They might make you more uh... cynical, though.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

(It's not like on CSI) If you're unaware of the events as the tragedy unfolded, that is fine. The line that the two missing climbers rapelled on was cut. There were footprints leading away from the snow cave.
I wanted to know if the distress call was taped.

Do you have a credible source for this?

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

On the GP there is a place called Ape Canyon. As I understand it, the story is that it was named so after several miners(?) in a cabin were attacked by a (or several) Bigfoot.

I don't remember the time frame, but the 1920s sticks in my mind.

I believe it supposedly happened in 1924. What many proponents don't mention is that the miner who reported the story, Fred Beck, claims that the (as he called them in an interview) "abominable snowmen" were actually spirits and that the other miners and he had encountered several different spirits while they were in the mountains. Sometimes I wonder if volcanic activity under Mount St. Helens was releasing some sort of gas that triggered hallucinations. Then again, I've always found it a bit odd that, of the miners supposedly involved, Fred Beck seems to be the only one talking about it.

I should also note that known Bigfoot hoaxer Rant Mullins (aka the guy who supplied some fake feet to Ray Wallace), claimed to have sparked the whole thing by throwing stones at the cabin as a prank.

 

[kitakaze]

On the GP there is a place called Ape Canyon. As I understand it, the story is that it was named so after several miners(?) in a cabin were attacked by a (or several) Bigfoot.

I don't remember the time frame, but the 1920s sticks in my mind.

And let's not forget that GPNF was where Elk Cast Guy got the Skookum Elk Cast.

Or this classic GP tale for the campfire:

In 1950 a skier named Jim Carter was with a group of other men, but went off by himself to film a documentary. He was never seen again, despite a massive search. One of the search team members said he had a chilling feeling of being watched the entire time. Carter's ski tracks seemed to indicate that he took off at a very high speed, making tremendous jumps that no experienced skier would make unless he was frightened beyond reason or being pursued.

 

[kitakaze]

I really don't want to offend the families involved, but what exactly happened to the three mountaineers on Mt. Hood last year? Didn't one of them make a call from near summit? From what I recall, the one victim that was found nearly did have his arm torn off.

(It's not like on CSI) If you're unaware of the events as the tragedy unfolded, that is fine. The line that the two missing climbers rapelled on was cut. There were footprints leading away from the snow cave.
I wanted to know if the distress call was taped.

Whoever the WnW geeks were that tried in incorporate that tragedy into their fantasy play really need to go for a walk and snap out of it. That's really lame.

Here's some info:

From the wikipedia article on Mount Hood climbing accidents:

On Thursday, December 7, 2006, three experienced climbers—Kelly James, Brian Hall, and Jerry Cooke—began what they expected to be a two-day expedition on the more-treacherous north slope of the mountain. On Sunday, December 10, 2006, the climbers failed to rendezvous as scheduled with friends, and James made a cell phone call to family members indicating that the group was separated and in trouble.[24] Rescue attempts were forestalled by freezing rain, heavy snowfall, low visibility and winds of 100 to 140 mph, caused by a widespread winter storm. The last sign of them alive was a signal from James' cell phone late on the night of Tuesday, December 12, indicating it had been turned on.[25] Clear weather on the weekend of December 16 allowed almost 100 search and rescue personnel to scour the mountain. On Sunday, December 17, searchers found a snow cave and climbing equipment, approximately 300 feet from the summit.[26] Inside the snow cave, the rescuers found a rope, two ice axes and an insulating sleeping pad. At approximately 3:29 PM PST, the body of Kelly James was found in another snow cave near the first one. On Wednesday, December 20, 2006, as good weather ended, the Hood River County sheriff announced that the mission was now being treated as a recovery rather than a rescue.[27] Brian Hall and Jerry Cooke remain missing and are presumed dead.[28]

Detailed local news coverage:

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121506_news_missing_climbers_friday.10a00d9b.html

Many images and detailed links there.

Kelly James' arm injury:

The body of Kelly James, 48, of Dallas, Texas, was removed by helicopter Monday from the 11,239-foot summit after rescue workers winched it from a snow cave about 300 feet down the steep north side.


Sheriff Joe Wampler of Hood River County said James had an "obvious" arm injury. Outlining a likely scenario, Wampler said the other climbers left their injured companion in the cave to find help, but had to dig a shallow cave of their own on a steep slope as the weather worsened.


Wampler confirmed Tuesday that James' injury was a dislocated shoulder.

It took me very little time at all to find and review that information. Whoever could look at that and see bigfoot really needs a change of hobbies.

 

[William Parcher]

It took me very little time at all to find and review that information. Whoever could look at that and see bigfoot really needs a change of hobbies.

There is a distinct pattern found in the world of the Bigfoot myth. Certain folks hoax, misidentify or misinterpret various things with a finger pointed at Bigfoot - then a non-critical audience believes it to be true or at least tentatively true until proven otherwise.

The Bigfoot myth is a positive feedback loop. Bigfooters provide information that points to Bigfoot, and other Bigfooters (or the impressionably naive) consume that information as if it were reliable. They seem to feed from each other.

Whoever reinterpreted this Mt. Hood tragedy to point towards Bigfoot should be considered a hoaxer. The spinning of this story was not an accident.