• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Bigfoot myth is a positive feedback loop. Bigfooters provide information that points to Bigfoot, and other Bigfooters (or the impressionably naive) consume that information as if it were reliable. They seem to feed from each other.

And don't forget their position is buttressed by comments from logical points of view, in other words, they need to defend their position against percieved attacks on the validity of their beliefs. And a frantic, illogical, us-against-the-world, mentality forms.
 
And don't forget their position is buttressed by comments from logical points of view, in other words, they need to defend their position against percieved attacks on the validity of their beliefs. And a frantic, illogical, us-against-the-world, mentality forms.

You sound like a strong BF skeptic. Do you doubt that these proported creatures exist?
 
Apeman to Skeptical Greg on BFF said:
I am MORE than happy to entertain all the possibilities of this footage being fake. In fact I would welcome Gimlin coming forward with an admission and costume because that would mean I'd be done here as this footage is virtually the only remaining straw for me and I could therefore get on with my life. And I'm sure I'm biased towards it being real and perhaps sometimes a bit defensive of the legitimacy of the film, but that's because I've looked at it pretty intensely for years, considered the explanations, and done a lot of the suit comparisons, etc.

Apeman's entire belief in Bigfoot is based on the authenticity of the PGF.
 
Apeman's entire belief in Bigfoot is based on the authenticity of the PGF.

I have no argument that will satisfy someone who believes the subject of the film is real..

As you can see from that thread, Apeman sees no merit in my pointing out the near perfect match between that suit butt and Patty ..
It doesn't matter that no real primate butt in nature really looks like that; it just must be some incredible evolutionary fluke..

I have pointed out what I see as flaws in a costume, and it can always be rationalized away as a unique feature, of an as yet, uncatalogued species.

I don't agree that it looks like a real animal .. It looks ragged, and like it may fall apart at any moment. I think it looks better in the first few seconds than it does in the last .. As if it were brushed at the beginning, and after a bit of flexing, the fur started going everywhere..
We never see more than half of the subject.. We have to surmise we are looking at it's best side...

The one place where the left leg is clearly visible, we see big lumps that look nothing like real muscle. This was argued away as a film anomaly ...

I don't agree the movement is particularly ' fluid ' like the proponents claim ..
It stumbles a bit after the ' turn and look ' ...
 
On the GP there is a place called Ape Canyon. As I understand it, the story is that it was named so after several miners(?) in a cabin were attacked by a (or several) Bigfoot.

I don't remember the time frame, but the 1920s sticks in my mind.

Oh yes, the "classic" 1924 story. This story haunted me as a child, after reading the account in John Green's book. I would usually confabulate the encounter with the Star Trek episode The Galileo Seven:


180px-480GAnthropoid1.jpg


Years past, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1980, I assumed that "Ape Canyon" was obliterated. Not so, as Ape Canyon is on the south side of the mountain, and the landslide and eruption occurred on the North side.

Living in Seattle, I'm not that far away, and my girlfriend and I decided to camp out there several years ago. A paved parking lot is right at the trail head. After about 1300 feet of climb, you are at the famous cliffs, seen in the old Bigfoot books. Camping out was literally painful, as up there you got into pumice chunks, which could be felt through our foam sleeping bag pads.

The Forest Service frowns on souvenir taking, and so posts unique signs that say "Don't be a pumice picker". Yes, I had my chance to take the dreaded "Volcanic ash" from Mt. St. Helens like the individual from Texas implies I did, but in fact I did not.

I actually found a bone up there! I suspect it was a rib bone from an elk, though I didn't take that either... That one does not find bones of large mammals in the Pacific Northwest is Footer Fantasy one-oh-one.

When we departed the next morning, two Forest Service personal were in the parking lot, checking cars for parking permits, and ticketing those that did not. They didn't seem to care that the well-worn trail had SEVERAL dead fall trees across it, the parking revenue came first.

We started talking to one of the rangers about the name of the trail. You would think that the name "Ape Canyon" would arouse some curiosity, but I kid you not, this gal didn't know where the name came from!

Like many subcultures, Bigfootery overestimates it's importance in society, and I think a lot of Bigfooters assume that Forest Service employees must be all over the Bigfoot thing. As Judaculla points out, this may not be the case.
 
Very interesting story, Judaculla. Particularily Utah paranormal bigfoot guy. BTW, have you ever posted that anecdote on BFF? If so, what was the response like? I don't remember having seen it though I very easily could have missed it.

Welcome to the board, I'm looking forward to your input. If you find yourself being cynical about the evidence leading nowhere then at least take heart in the true insights that the Skookum Casts and the MDF's offer. They might make you more uh... cynical, though.

It was in a thread I started a few years ago titled something like "Asking DNRs about sasquatch/bigfoot." The whole thing emanated out of getting black bear population estimates, trying to correlate those to sightings, etc. After having discovered confidence intervals you could drive a bus through in bear population estimates, as well as more on how sighting report distribution has too many confounds, I abandoned the project. Regardless, I don't recall how it went, and I'll have to go digging for it.

As far as the MDF, I never found it compelling... more of a potential curiousity from which little could be derived. I am aware of Morgoth's work on the BFF. Even before then, my "position" (if you could call it that) mirrors that of Bipto, the founder of Bigfoot Forums. He posted the following recently.

The MDF just isn't worth the number of words being expended on it. There doesn't seem to be, in the information already revealed, enough evidence to claim with any real degree of confidence that this is a bigfoot.

The Skookum cast has been of more interest to me. I have followed that discussion a little more closely. However, when the controversy hits the fan at the BFF, threads become unwieldy except for the highly committed. Posts from DesertYeti, damndirtyape, and colobus were central. At the end, I felt their exasperation--whether pro or con--simply by proxy.

Here's my most substantial BFF post discussing the Skookum cast.

The only thing about the Skookum cast of which I am certain is that I am not in a position to evaluate what it may be, even if it were sitting in front of me.

For many of us, we likely have to rely on the judgements of those with expertise in relevant fields (e.g. tracking, primates, ungulates, etc.). Is that a fallacy? Well, it depends. Argumentum ad verecundiam is the fallacy of appealing to authority, but it is more accurately described as appeal to inappropriate or misleading authority.

Is it inappropriate to appeal to authority in assessing the Skookum cast?

I'm not sure yet...inappropriate is too strong of a word here. My impression is that it's premature, but may be appropriate in the future.

Here's a checklist on argumentum ad verecundiam from the fallacy files website. I take issue with a few of these points, and I'll lay out my concerns below.

To sum up these points in a positive manner, before relying upon expert opinion, go through the following checklist:

1. Is this a matter which I can decide without appeal to expert opinion? If the answer is "yes", then do so. If "no", go to the next question:

2. Is this a matter upon which expert opinion is available? If not, then your opinion will be as good as anyone else's. If so, proceed to the next question:

3. Is the authority an expert on the matter? If not, then why listen? If so, go on:

4. Is the authority biased towards one side? If so, the authority may be untrustworthy. At the very least, before accepting the authority's word seek a second, unbiased opinion. That is, go to the last question:

5. Is the authority's opinion representative of expert opinion? If not, then find out what the expert consensus is and rely on that. If so, then you may rationally rely upon the authority's opinion.

If an argument to authority cannot pass these five tests, then it commits the fallacy of appeal to misleading authority.

My concerns are with points 4 and 5. Point four suggests that motivation or bias can be factored into dismissing an argument. That smells of ad hominem to me. Motivation or prejudice should be cause to scrutinize evidence and arguments, but isn't by itself justification to dismiss an argument. Sometimes the used car salesman is telling you the truth and can back up his statements with evidence.

Point five suggests that expert consensus is the way to go once all other criteria are met. In reality, this is what we have to go with to make everyday decisions where one is forced to make a choice, has to rely on expert opinion, and can't suspend judgement to wait and see (e.g. what course of treatment to use for a tumor).

So, what's the consensus on the Skookum cast? Well, we don't know yet. There are a handful of evaluations by some very intelligent folks who do have relevant expertise. Convincing Daris Swindler, given his expertise in primate anatomy and his own previous skeptical stance regarding Bigfoot, should be enough to make other experts sit up and take notice.

To really get an understanding of a true consensus of experts, the results of the study of the cast should be submitted to a reputable scientific journal for peer review. If the data that points to a sasquatch are sufficiently compelling and it can be quantitatively and qualitatively shown how other explanations do not fit as well (principle of parsimony), the results should be made available to the appropriate peers for scrutiny, especially those who hold contrary views. The results will stand or fall on their own merits (and a good journal editor will sniff out unjust or overly critical assessments and make the call him/herself...that's their job). If it can be shown to experts in wildlife biology that this impression is unequivocally an undocumented primate, it deserves to be published as the lead article in Science.

A submitter may revise and resubmit if their are some minor concerns that the editor wants addressed before publishing a paper as submitted. If it is rejected, the submitter will have the documentation from the reviews. If a submitter feels they have been treated unfairly, he or she may submit to another journal. If the results are solid, the paper will get published eventually.

That hasn't happened yet with the Skookum cast (to my knowledge). I do look forward to Meldrum's chapter on the cast in his upcoming book. However, a book doesn't get the same level of peer review that a professional journal does. That's nothing against Meldrum or anyone else...it's that way in almost every field and profesional books are still worthwhile to publish. I would just like to see the cast pass that higher standard in a widely circulated and esteemed peer-reviewed journal.

If the cast can meet that standard, appealing to authority would be entirely appropriate. Whether it does or does not, I would like to know that a paper was written up and submitted.
 
Was that a joke or did you mean that seriously? It's kind of hard to tell. LTC said it best, bigfoot is everywhere yet nowhere. I like when people like Meldrum try to slide things like 'in the mountainous regions of the Pacific Northwest' by with a straight face. It's really hard to take someone like that seriously when they won't acknowledge the elephant in the room.

I have an idea for t-shirt. We just stick LTC's 'bigfoot is everywhere yet nowhere' quote under a nice big Mangani bigfoot sighting map. Give them away at *insert next Woods and Wildmen event here*, it'll be a riot!

Please try to remember, I'm no woodknocker, I'm an encounter woo. A regular guy who got chased. No pheromones, woodknocks, etc, etc. And yes, Pnw.
None of this glowing eyed, skunk smelling, skunk ape crap.
 
On the GP there is a place called Ape Canyon. As I understand it, the story is that it was named so after several miners(?) in a cabin were attacked by a (or several) Bigfoot.

I don't remember the time frame, but the 1920s sticks in my mind.

Now, this is ignorant. Was in invisible too?
 
Whoever the WnW geeks were that tried in incorporate that tragedy into their fantasy play really need to go for a walk and snap out of it. That's really lame.

Here's some info:

From the wikipedia article on Mount Hood climbing accidents:

Detailed local news coverage:

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121506_news_missing_climbers_friday.10a00d9b.html

Many images and detailed links there.

Kelly James' arm injury:

It took me very little time at all to find and review that information. Whoever could look at that and see bigfoot really needs a change of hobbies.

Is Wikipedia peer reviewed, then please don't refer to this crap!
The events as they unfolded, stated that the sheriff found their rope appeared to have been cut, and he couldn't make sense of the tracks surrounding the snowcave. It's that simple. My question was if the
PHONE CALL WAS RECORDED OR NOT?
 
Asking Questions is Now a Hoax?

If you're so shallow as to presume hoax when somebody wants to find the answers to something that you obviously have no idea about, then you need to find a new hobby.
 
I Searched it Myself

Here (factual): from CBSnews.com dated Dec. 18, 2006
Dead Mt. Hood Climber Identified (title of article)
Brian Hukari - rescuer Of the rope that was cut, Hukari said "It didn't look like it was broken from a fall or anything, just looked cut for----and we couldn't figure out for what reason."

Sgt. Gerry Tiffany Hood River County Sheriff Spokesman
spike..."footprints headed up the mountain"
(from where the two missing were presumed to have fallen)


So, was the distress call taped?


ETA: At the time of this tragedy, I wasn't into bigfoot yet. I'm a hiker. I've hiked and traversed all over these islands. I got into bigfoot around May of this year. When I found BFF. I've had a couple of encounters when I was a kid, but they were just stories I'd break out at work occasionally. Usually a new guy would hear rumor of my encounter, then I'd break it out on him eventually. No smirking. They detected the real fear that I experienced. (but that's really nothing compared to the freak wave I encountered while in the navy, steering a flat bottomed boat in Alaska, but that's not a cheap story to be discussed on a forum)
My interest in this story was from a hiker's standpoint. I've been researching which mountain would be my dream climb. Everest (too cold, too high), K2 (r u kidding?), or Kilimanjaro (with the great side strips to Serengeti, and that cool crater thing). Then this tragedy happened, and bloggers immediately commenced to offend the families involved by stating how dumb they were to climb midwinter etc. etc. That's when I followed the news reports a little closer, and these interesting little tidbits kept coming up, and stayed on my mind. Like a rappelling rope that was cut, mysterious footprint tracks, missing climbers (still), etc. etc.
 
Last edited:
Links a go-go

Here is a picture of a barefoot Roger Patterson and a Bluff Creek casting. Doesn't his foot look kinda like the track cast next to it? It isn't a perfect match since it seems to be a right foot and Patterson's left foot is bare, but still...

Speaking of Bluff Creek casts, this site is selling what it claims are copies of Bluff Creek casts (along with a swanky Bigfoot mask).

Awhile back, there was some discussion over a drawing of a female Bigfoot (seemingly from the Roe account) by one Martan Kunstler. Interestingly enough, Roger Patterson drew a close copy of it for his 1966 book "Do the Abominable Snowmen of America Really Exist?" (as noted here). I've never seen the book myself, so I can't say for sure that this is him ripping Kunstler off or if he gave Kunstler credit, but it makes me wonder. It certainly wouldn't be the first bit of shady business that Mr. Patterson pulled and it certainly wouldn't be his last (That honor might go to his little doublecross at Bossburg). Also note the stride, length of arms, line down the back, seemingly crested head, etc. in both pictures...

Anyway, my attempt to find more information on Mr. Kunstler led me to these excerpts from a book by Ivan Sanderson. Not only does Sanderson mention him and giant aquatic humaniods, but he claims that the special effects for the silent movie "The Lost World" were done by putting chickens in rubber dinosaur costumes! I don't know how he was unaware of the fact that the effects were accomplished with stop-motion animation, but it kinda puts his whole "The Minnesota Iceman looks too real to be fake" argument into perspective, doesn't it?

Getting back to Patterson's artwork, here are two other examples of his drawn Bigfoot artwork. However, Patterson didn't only draw; he also sculpted. Here you can see a montage put together by Desertyeti, which compares a sculpted bust of a Homo erectus by J. McGrergor, a Bigfoot bust (apparently made prior to the P/G film) made by Roger Patterson, and a frame showing Patty's face. You can read more about it here and see other views of the McGregor bust here. They all bear a close resemblence don't they? And the whole Kunstler drawing issue seems to suggest that Patterson copied what he liked from other peoples' artwork and modified it as he saw fit, just as Desertyeti suggests was the case with the bust.

What I also find interesting is that by being able to sculpt, Roger Patterson had the necessary skills needed to make his own latex masks. (like the processes described here or here. If a kid in the 60's managed to figure it out, it's certainly possible for Patterson to have figured it out as well. Hell, making a latex mask isn't too far off from making plaster casts of footprints. And, as would be the case if he constructed a mask by cannibalizing Don Post masks like Dfoot suggested, Patterson would've needed to put hair on the mask (and feet and hands, assuming that they weren't part of the original suit) that matched up with the costume. One way he could've done this, assuming that he didn't have enough money to buy more material, was to take the long hairs on a standard gorilla costume and cut them in half. This could possibly explain why Patty has supposedly short hair.

Speaking of costumes, here's an article which details how they made design changes to the suit used in “Godzilla: Final Wars” to increase movement by using different materials, slimming some features, and making the dorsal plates smaller. Patty lacks a tail or dorsal plates. Also notice how large Godzilla’s “slimmer” legs and thighs are, especially when compared to Patty's.

This is a picture of what I've heard is one of the earliest (if not the earliest) surviving costume piece from a Toho kaiju movie. It's from 1967's "King Kong Escapes" and is one of the heads that was used for close-ups. Everything else has long since deteriorated into nothing. Similarly, one of the suits used in Toho's 1966 movie, "War of the Gargantuas," was showing obvious signs of decay when it was reused in the 1972/1973 TV series, "Ike! Godman". If Patterson really didn't destroy the costume like some proponents claim a hoaxer would never do, I'd imagine that it has long since decayed away.
 
Here (factual): from CBSnews.com

Is CBS News peer reviewed?

dated Dec. 18, 2006 Dead Mt. Hood Climber Identified (title of article) Brian Hukari - rescuer Of the rope that was cut, Hukari said "It didn't look like it was broken from a fall or anything, just looked cut for----and we couldn't figure out for what reason."

Bigfoot carries a knife?

Sgt. Gerry Tiffany Hood River County Sheriff Spokesman spike... "footprints headed up the mountain" (from where the two missing were presumed to have fallen)

Were the footprints of bare feet and much larger than a typical human?

These CBS News quotes don't mention Bigfoot. Who started thinking of Bigfoot after reading about this mountain climbing tragedy? Where does Bigfoot enter the picture?

So, was the distress call taped?

... because the caller may have mentioned an ornery Bigfoot In The Mist, or something cryptic and mysterious like "Me, eaten, tall, monkey."
 
Is CBS News peer reviewed?



Bigfoot carries a knife?



Were the footprints of bare feet and much larger than a typical human?

These CBS News quotes don't mention Bigfoot. Who started thinking of Bigfoot after reading about this mountain climbing tragedy? Where does Bigfoot enter the picture?



... because the caller may have mentioned an ornery Bigfoot In The Mist, or something cryptic and mysterious like "Me, eaten, tall, monkey."

Hi, can you please give the computer back to Daddy?

ETA: I apologise for that. If bigfoot is hominid, he may carry a blade. Would it be beyond them to learn how to operate a knife. Maybe the big hairy dummy bit it. CBS was providing quotes from various experts dealing with this tragedy. Either mountain rescue specialists, the law, etc.
They didn't mention any theory as to who may have cut the rope.

ETAmore: I didn't (immediately) recognise that pgf bleever attack/response. Got me.
 
Last edited:
Hi, can you please give the computer back to Daddy? ETA: I apologise for that. If bigfoot is hominid, he may carry a blade.

He may carry automatic guns and and Blackberry devices as well. If Bigfoot is killing people who venture into the PNW wilds, he may have all sorts of human technology at his hands. We can't prove that the Bigfoot society does not have some machine guns and ammo. We can't prove any possible limits to the capabilities of Bigfoot. People who love their children must keep this in mind.

Would it be beyond them to learn how to operate a knife.

Of course not. Bigfoot is intelligent and worldly - so he knows how to use a knife, and he knows that trail cameras threaten his integrity of being. He deals with all of this, and the end result is murdered mountain climbers and no trail cam photos. If humans understood Bigfoot they would stay out of the mountains and stop using silly cameras. Our cameras capture every living creature except Bigfoot. When are humans going to catch on to this?

Maybe the big hairy dummy bit it.

Bit what? Is this some deep intellectual statement?

CBS was providing quotes from various experts dealing with this tragedy. Either mountain rescue specialists, the law, etc. They didn't mention any theory as to who may have cut the rope.

What rope was cut? Did you mean the critical rope that was cut by Bigfoot? What about the mysterious footprints leading away from the snow cave? Sonofabitch. Everything is starting to point to Bigfoot. It would be stupid to think that after learning these things one would not implicate a Bigfoot. Given the factual evidence, it's hard to imagine that Bigfoot had nothing to do with this incident.

ETAmore: I didn't (immediately) recognise that pgf bleever attack/response. Got me.

Say what?
 
mots,

I'm not going to get into a "what could have happened" scenario about three guys attempting a speed accent on a mountain that they were not familiar with. I will ask the question, WTF was a bigfoot doing on top of the mountain during a wicked storm? I know, because it's there.

Let it go, it was a climbing accident, James died of Hypothermia, Hall and Cook probably got blown off the mountain.

m

 
mots,

I'm not going to get into a "what could have happened" scenario about three guys attempting a speed accent on a mountain that they were not familiar with. I will ask the question, WTF was a bigfoot doing on top of the mountain during a wicked storm? I know, because it's there.

Let it go, it was a climbing accident, James died of Hypothermia, Hall and Cook probably got blown off the mountain.

m

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_826447072e6777911.png[/qimg]



Bigfoot was probably out of ice in his forest habitat, and decided to go for a hike in the mountain to replenish his ice reserve. Can't make a good wood-forest cocktail without ice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom