Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

Status
Not open for further replies.
LAL, surely you've seen the enhancements done to the film by primateer and others on the BFF. Meet the Sasquatch, by Christopher L. Murphy, includes many enhancements to film frames.

Compare an enhanced 5.5" x 5" face on the cover of the book to an original film frame blowup of the the face:

352enhanced.jpg
bigfil_1.jpg



A comparison between the original and the touched-up version of the face can be found on page 93.

A frame 323 enhancement on page 81, shows details of the right hand and foot that are clearly missing in the original film frame (pages 53 and 67).

More enhancements to the face on pages 70 and 71 using frames 339, 350, and 352.

The enhancement of frame 352 that William Parcher posted, is also found on pages 54 and 96 of Meet the Sasquatch, yet none of those images looks like the original:

Can you tell which one is the original and which one is enhanced?

352original.jpg
352enhanced002.jpg


LAL, if you seriously think the film or frames from the film have NOT been enhanced, modified, or otherwise manipulated, I only have one reaction -- :jaw-dropp

RayG

Yvon Leclere is credited throughout. A digital enhancement isn't the same thing as a sketch-over (Bonney did the famous red head, didn't he?) or a drawing in of lines that are probably smaller than a grain of film.

According to the URL the first one is "352original.jpg" and the other "352enhanced002.jpg", but *doh* I could never have figured that out by myself.

I asked a simple question: Who's the artist? Is that difficult to answer?

No where did I say I think the film or frames from the film have NOT been enhanced, modified, or otherwise manipulated. How did you manage a quote mine without a quote? I must say I'm impressed.
 
In his book, Krantz relies heavily on information or casts provided by either Marx or Freeman. Most in bigfootdom consider those two information sources highly dubious.


Yes, I got trounced on by Desertyeti and counselor, who got trounced on by Judaculla, on that one...........or those two. See the threads where I got my feet wet on BFF. I got a set of copies of the casts for my efforts, among other things.

Green would agree with you, but Murphy notes some of their evidence has held up to some intense scientific scrutiny. He thinks each piece should be viewed objectively, as do I. Chilcutt found one of Freeman's casts compelling; I'm not sure which one. I doubt it was the "touched-up" one.


I just hope the inclusion of "After retracing the tracks at the site, the professor brought a cast pair back to his lab", is merely an error in reporting and not a deliberate attempt to mislead. I say that because Krantz himself states on page 43 of Big Footprints, "All except the one covered footprint were gone when I examined the site."


I think it was an oversimplification. Dahinden was still on the scene. Krantz measured the fence over which the animal stepped. Haven't we been over this before? 1" difference?

He also says on page 43, "And here I obtained copies of the footprint casts that finally convinced me that the creatures were real."

Ivan Marx cast them at the dump. He was called in because of his known interest. His later hoaxing was pretty crude.

The paragraph you cite implies that Krantz cast tracks and brought them back, when in fact he brought back copies of the other Bossburg tracks. He couldn't possibly have retraced the tracks at the site, because there was only one track left.


Evidently he was shown the route. He said he cast the one that was left, according to the interview you cited. Dahinden recovered the originals and Krantz said that was a story in itself, but he didn't tell it in the book, did he?

Dennett said he could see faint dermal ridges on the originals right where Ed Palma pointed them out on the copies, on which he couldn't see them.


Claiming you can determine ankle structure based on a copy of a cast of a footprint seems quite arrogant. But that's not really surprising, considering Krantz thought himself the equivalent of Leonardo da Vinci.


He determined the placement of the ankle from the cast of the crippled footprint that had spread bones. I think he deduced it from estimated weight as well.

This is what Krantz said in an interview with KXLY-TV reporter John Yager in 1992, "If someone faked [these footprints] with all the subtle hints of anatomy design, he had to be a real genius, an expert at anatomy, very inventive, an original thinker. He had to outclass me in those areas, and I don't think anyone outclasses me in those areas, at least not since Leonardo da Vinci. So I say such a person is impossible, therefore the tracks are real."

He could have classed himself with Gallileo too, but he didn't suffer house arrest for going againt received wisdom. His career suffered. Da Vinci dissected corpses, didn't he, which was illegal at the time? Now I understand the quote a little better. He wasn't referring to da Vinci's artistic abilities.

Noll noted he could be arrogant and that it was a carry-over from his teaching days. Evidently that's what inspired Dahinden to try to sabotage him.

The point seems to be that an ordinary hoaxer, such as Ivan Marx, wouldn't have had the expertise to get all those details right.

It might be interesting to look at the motives of real hoaxers, such as Marx, who evidently wanted to stay on the payroll, and Pickens, who didn't like being called a hick by a researcher and set out to fool investigators with carved feet.

Krantz seemed pretty convinced that he couldn't be fooled by anyone. He writes, "I figured the whole thing out after studying the footprints; any hoaxer had to plan it all out from nothing. This requires an expert anatomist with a very inventive mind, more so than me, and I seriously doubt that any such person exists." (Big Footprints, page 63)

Soooo... the reasoning being... I can't be fooled, so it must be true? Magicians musta hated it when he came to their shows.

When did he go to their shows? He just missed the Minnesota Iceman at a fair, but I don't recall him even mentioning, hm........James Randi? ;)

Here's a VERY interesting article in the Fall 1994 issue of Skeptical Inquirer regarding Krantz and the Bossburg prints.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_n5_v18/ai_16334418

I'm guessing you will probably dismiss the article entirely because it was written by Dennett, but you really should read it anyway.

RayG

As I've noted many times, I read it when it first came out. (Early in these debates a poster produced it with a sort of "Ah ha!" noting it was the third article up on a search, as I recall. Google ranks them by number of hits, doesn't it? Does that make Dennett third rate?) I might think he was on to something if he'd so much as produced a library card, preferrably in Ivan Marx' name. The idea of a blow-up of a clubbed foot might be persuasive if the condition weren't consistant with metatarsus adductus rather than clubfoot.

My comment then and now is, "Pure speculation", or something to that effect.
 
Last edited:
Yvon Leclere is credited throughout. A digital enhancement isn't the same thing as a sketch-over (Bonney did the famous red head, didn't he?) or a drawing in of lines that are probably smaller than a grain of film.

The issue wasn't WHO might have manipulated the film images, whether it be digital or otherwise, but rather the fact that the film images HAVE been manipulated, enhanced, or touched-up.

I asked a simple question: Who's the artist? Is that difficult to answer?

William Parcher stated that his point was that "subsequent manipulation and modification of the PGF has happened after Patterson was at Bluff Creek."

To which you responded, "Bunk."

THEN you asked him to produce the name of the artist, which wasn't his point at all. If evidence is presented that a plane has crashed, knowing the name of the pilot will not alter the fact the plane has crashed.

No where did I say I think the film or frames from the film have NOT been enhanced, modified, or otherwise manipulated. How did you manage a quote mine without a quote? I must say I'm impressed.

You DID imply that 'subsequent manipulation and modification of the PGF has happened after Patterson was at Bluff Creek' was "Bunk". I don't think you meant a place for sleeping, so I'm guessing you meant to say 'bunkum'. There seems to be no doubt that the famous frame 352, with hand modification, is now being shown as though it were the original film frame, even though it was made after Patterson was at Bluff Creek (whether you have seen it elsewhere or not). The finger aberration simply does not appear on the original film frame.

Could the apparent 'finger' modification in frame 352 be a simple artifact in the surface of the film? Sure, but it certainly seems suspicious, and all those other enhancements, including fingers, toes, eyes, nose, and mouth are no mistake. (and they certainly happened AFTER the relase of the PGF).

RayG
 
I doubt there was "retouching" done on the right hand of the film subject in frame 352 for several reasons.

First, it looks something like an index finger almost touching a thumb, right? Unfortunately for this to occur it would have to be a LEFT hand...

Second, there is a significantly greater detail in the feature than in the rest of the image, if it is a "retouch" it is very poorly done.

Third, we are talking about a feature that is essentially microscopic. With the number of copies of this film floating around, and a significant lack of provenance of any of them, I'm more inclined to suspect an errant bit of emulsion or debris as a result of handling or copying the film. I used to make "direct stock" films when I was in high school, somewhat in the manner of Stan Brackage. If you physically distress developed film stock you can get anomalies like this.
 
I think it was an oversimplification. Dahinden was still on the scene. Krantz measured the fence over which the animal stepped. Haven't we been over this before? 1" difference?

Nope, no oversimplification. Krantz is pretty clear on page 43 when he says, "All except the one covered footprint were gone when I examined the site."

Evidently he was shown the route. He said he cast the one that was left, according to the interview you cited.

I think you're confused about the interview and the timeline.

Tracks were found in Bossburg in December, 1969, and a pair of tracks were cast.

Weeks afterwards, a long line of tracks were found in the snow, crossing a fence, etc.

Some time after THAT, in early 1970, Krantz visited the site, but only one track remained for viewing, the rest had been rendered useless (probably by the weather).

He ended up bringing back a copy of a set of casts from the original trackway, made in December, 1969.

Reread pages 43 and 54 in Big Footprints, it's all there.

Dahinden recovered the originals and Krantz said that was a story in itself, but he didn't tell it in the book, did he?

If you read page 54, Krantz is referring to the original pair of tracks that were cast in December, 1969. It was a copy of these originals that Krantz worked with in 1970.

He determined the placement of the ankle from the cast of the crippled footprint that had spread bones.

Dennis Trune, an anatomist and an associate professor at the Oregon Health Sciences University tends to disagree with that determination. In his Skeptical Inquirer article, Dennett writes that Trune found it difficult to believe that Krantz could "tell the location of the ankle (tibio-talus) joint, which is on the top of the foot, from imprints of the bottom of the foot."

He wasn't referring to da Vinci's artistic abilities.

No he wasn't, he was referring to the intellect of da Vinci, apparently the only one to surpass his own.

Noll noted he could be arrogant and that it was a carry-over from his teaching days.

You know what they say about Doctors (no, not the medical ones), very hard for them to say three little words once they earn that coveted Ph.D. -- "I was wrong."

The point seems to be that an ordinary hoaxer, such as Ivan Marx, wouldn't have had the expertise to get all those details right.

According to Krantz the genius.

When did he go to their shows? He just missed the Minnesota Iceman at a fair, but I don't recall him even mentioning, hm........James Randi?

I was attempting to interject some levity. Krantz thought himself incapable of being fooled, so it wouldn't make any sense to attend a magician's performance, where fooling people is the main objective of the act. I didn't mean to imply he actually attended magical shows.

My comment then and now is, "Pure speculation", or something to that effect.

The Dennett article, or the Bossburg evidence written about by Krantz? :cool:

RayG
 
Oh, no name, no touch up ?

Sure...

Your logic filter set to 110% as usual..

There seems to be a problem with your reading comprehension. I asked for the name of the artist, IOW, the person who did the retouching. Davis?Someone else?

In no way did I say anything to indicate whether or not I think it's retouched in that post. It could have been done by anyone with some basic photo editing software; even you.

When you guys just cop pictures without giving sources you not only break rules, you do the equivalent of quote mining in pictures. I will now go back to trying to find the source. Since I don't have XP, I don't have "View source" so this takes some work.

There's nothing wrong with my logic, but sometimes I question thee.
 
Nope, no oversimplification. Krantz is pretty clear on page 43 when he says, "All except the one covered footprint were gone when I examined the site."


I meant by the reporter.


I think you're confused about the interview and the timeline.

I don't.

Tracks were found in Bossburg in December, 1969, and a pair of tracks were cast.

November 24th.

Weeks afterwards, a long line of tracks were found in the snow, crossing a fence, etc.

December 13th.

Some time after THAT, in early 1970, Krantz visited the site, but only one track remained for viewing, the rest had been rendered useless (probably by the weather).

He ended up bringing back a copy of a set of casts from the original trackway, made in December, 1969.

The original casts were evidently made in November. He may be wrong on the date.

Reread pages 43 and 54 in Big Footprints, it's all there.


On page 43 he states he had photographs and good verbal descriptions to follow.

Reread page 44 on what he says about snow caking on fake feet. Read also pages 55 through 65, where you will find his reasoning. It's interesting to see how he reached his conclusions. On pg. 65 you'll find almost the exact quote without Da Vinci being mentioned.

If you read page 54, Krantz is referring to the original pair of tracks that were cast in December, 1969. It was a copy of these originals that Krantz worked with in 1970.


I know, but they were made in November. They were from the dump, were they not? Those were discovered November 24th, unless this is wrong:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/bossburg.htm

I believe those are the only surviving casts.


Dennis Trune, an anatomist and an associate professor at the Oregon Health Sciences University tends to disagree with that determination. In his Skeptical Inquirer article, Dennett writes that Trune found it difficult to believe that Krantz could "tell the location of the ankle (tibio-talus) joint, which is on the top of the foot, from imprints of the bottom of the foot."


I don't think that was all he used. The weight would require the ankle to be set farther forward than on a human.

No he wasn't, he was referring to the intellect of da Vinci, apparently the only one to surpass his own.


Exactly how do you know that?

You know what they say about Doctors (no, not the medical ones), very hard for them to say three little words once they earn that coveted Ph.D. -- "I was wrong."


He was wrong about human descent from Australopithecus afarensis, and he a specialist in human evolution, too. Tch.


According to Krantz the genius.

Already noted he could be arrogant. That doesn't make him wrong.

I was attempting to interject some levity. Krantz thought himself incapable of being fooled, so it wouldn't make any sense to attend a magician's performance, where fooling people is the main objective of the act. I didn't mean to imply he actually attended magical shows.

Maybe Krantz was trying to inject some levity too.

The Dennett article, or the Bossburg evidence written about by Krantz? :cool:

RayG

Dennett, of course. He's imaginative; I'll give him that.
 
Last edited:
Of course it doesn't seem to be suspicious, to anyone ( on the believer side ),that there seems to be an accute shortage of any new tracks, or other sign that can withstand any amount of modern scientific scrutiny..

We are still arguing about 30 year old evidence.. Any ideas why that might be ?

Because you started the thread?
 
You claim to have studied the evidence for Bigfoot, and you don't know how to enlarge a casting of a human foot?

Jeez, Hunter, even I know that. You can do it with kerosene and latex.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/baird.htm

"The near constancy of ridge spacing in primates rules out one method of faking. Latex molds of real skin, soaked in kerosene, will expand greatly; there may also be other methods of expanding molds. This procedure could produce gigantic skin patterns (in some respects), but the ridge spacing would also be expanded, and thus easily recognizable as abnormal.

The dermal ridges in these track casts show bifurcations, terminations, and isolated short segments in various places. These are the same kinds of variations that are seen in human dermatoglyphics, and they occur with normal frequencies.

If a dermal ridge running across a toe is counted as "one," and a ridge of similar length on the sole as another, then these three track casts display almost a thousand dermal ridges. Each of those that has been carefully observed is a smoothly rounded ridge in cross section, and not a scratch or V-shaped groove as would be produced by engraving. The furrows are also rounded valleys between the ridges, and are relatively narrow. The spacing between ridges varies only gradually from one location to another; there are no abrupt breaks in pattern density."

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/dermal.html

So much for Baird.
 
Diogenes, would you please perform a favor? You have a photo editing program and a photo hosting website. I am asking you a favor to help support my argument that at least on two occasions, Patty has been reconstructed (by means of artistic and technological means) to change her appearance from being "a bloke in a suit" to a real Bigfoot.

Please use this posted image. Use your program to isolate only the right hand and forearm, similar to the image that you drew that red line upon. Please enlarge the cropping to about 500 x 500 pixels, while maintaining the most resolution that you can. Post the result in this thread please.

Thank you very much.

Patterson_still.jpg

Okay, found the source:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-04-12.html

It's with a review of Long's book, and evidently is not one of Davis' enhancements. So, the editors of eSkeptic published a retouched photo? Or what are you trying to say?

It looks like something in the background to me rather than a finger or a drawn in finger, rather like part of Diogenes "donuts". The edges aren't sharp. Now looking for the next few frames to see if it stays behind when she moves forward. I'll have to dust off LMS again.
 
Have I mentioned that I find the whole mid-tarsal break argument... Well... How can I say without being rude... Quite possibly an error?

That reminds me, Correa.......how's the paper coming? Are you working on it? Can we see a draft? Or do you not have time again?
 
William Parcher,
It's clear now the ' finger ' frame has been doctored..

It is clear the photos were lifted from BFF with no credit given to the poster or the board, as per their rules. Looks like Parcher is following your example. Is there some reason the simple rules of another board can't be respected on this board?

I think it's especially important to post the links to BFF since some lurkers might be interested in following the discussions on many of these topics there. The discussions tend to be intelligent, many of the posters have done some actual research and opinions are usually backed up instead of just spouted off the top of the head.
 
Yet he posts pictures of Wallace tracks and bear tracks on his web pages ? Yeah, he's good allright.

In case you haven't noticed, Meldrum doesn't have any credibility here as relates to Bigfoot.


Any new evidence Lu ? Something that's not 30 years old ?

No one who's done any actual work on this has any credibility as far as you're concerned. We can talk about the Skookum Cast again, if you'd like, but in the meantime, you might want to review your dates. I'm getting 38 years for the PGF and about 36 for Bossburg.

You're continual insistence that Meldrum has posted any photos of bear tracks or Wallace fakes only tells me that you need to have your eyes examined, if not your head. Continual repetition of your lies is not going to make them true.
 
Is it me or would we expect a dude that is over nine feet tall to have a foot a bit longer than 14 inches? Certainly there are plenty of human feet that match those specifications.

Human feet can match the length, but not the width.

Patty's tracks measured 14.5" and her height was circa 6.5'.

There are casts that measure 22", the one Sherriff Closner had on his desk for years, e.g.. The estimated height of the animal seen was 8'. Closner said he guessed he'd have to stop laughing.
 
Patterson_still.jpg


The important thing here is not whether this image was intentionally faked, or if the “fingers” are an accidental artifact of the film grain. The important thing is that by examining the surrounding frames it can be seen that the “fingers” do not seem to be part of “Patty.” But this image (and others based on it) is often presented by Bigfooters as a still to show the details of the “Patty” figure.

The significance of the “fingers” is that they make the arm (from shoulder to fingertip) seem several inches longer than it really is. When you add in that extra, artificial length it becomes much harder to imagine how “Patty” could be a person in a costume. Subtract the “fingers” and the arm length become much more reasonable for the costume hypothesis.

Is it proof one way or the other? Of course not. But it’s troubling that Bigfooters can’t understand why anyone would care if the detail being pointed to in a picture is really there or not.
 
Here you go:

Krantz, G.S. 1992. Big Footprints: A Scientific Inquiry into the Reality of Sasquatch. Boulder, Colo.: Johnson Books.

Pages 66-67:

:book:READ KRANTZ!!!!!! :monkeyr:
:dl:

Taken from http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_n5_v18/ai_16334428.

Depends on the POV, I guess.

""Big Footprints," written by physical anthropologist Dr. Grover Krantz, is the only book on the subject of the Sasquatch that explores the enduring mystery from a scientist's point of view. In a lucid, highly readable style, Dr. Krantz separates the solid evidence from the dubious, corrects many famous misconceptions, and, in the end, really takes the skeptics to task. Perhaps the most commendable aspect of this work is the professional and level-headed treatment Krantz gives his topic - a topic that courts the lunatic fringe. The detailed study of the famous "Patterson/Gimlin" film of bigfoot, along with thorough investigation into the veracity of the dermal ridges found in some footprint casts, show this book to be the work of a serious scientist. Personally, I've loaned this book to skeptics who've come away scratching their heads, wondering if we humans might actually share the planet with large, bipedal primates. "Big Footprints" is beyond doubt the finest book ever written on the Sasquatch enigma."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...omer-reviews.sort_by=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
 
Patterson_still.jpg


The important thing here is not whether this image was intentionally faked, or if the “fingers” are an accidental artifact of the film grain. The important thing is that by examining the surrounding frames it can be seen that the “fingers” do not seem to be part of “Patty.” But this image (and others based on it) is often presented by Bigfooters as a still to show the details of the “Patty” figure.

The significance of the “fingers” is that they make the arm (from shoulder to fingertip) seem several inches longer than it really is. When you add in that extra, artificial length it becomes much harder to imagine how “Patty” could be a person in a costume. Subtract the “fingers” and the arm length become much more reasonable for the costume hypothesis.

Is it proof one way or the other? Of course not. But it’s troubling that Bigfooters can’t understand why anyone would care if the detail being pointed to in a picture is really there or not.

This is the first time I've encountered this. I doubt it's standard "Bigfooter" fare. I'm not finding a discussion on BFF, so if someone would post the link to the thread from which the pictures were swiped, we might be able to see what the "Bigfooters" (as though they all agree) have to say about it. I'm trying to find the "enlarged human foot" post I meant to answer earlier. It's from Gray's Harbor Washington, not the Bluff Creek trackway, in any event. I don't know if this was answered. I missed a couple of pages and am still trying to catch up.

The only thing significant it might affect is IM measurements which weren't taken off that frame in the first place.

I agree the "fingers" do not seem to be part of the hand. Anybody got the next few frames?
 
Okay, found the source:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-04-12.html

It's with a review of Long's book, and evidently is not one of Davis' enhancements. So, the editors of eSkeptic published a retouched photo? Or what are you trying to say?

It looks like something in the background to me rather than a finger or a drawn in finger, rather like part of Diogenes "donuts". The edges aren't sharp. Now looking for the next few frames to see if it stays behind when she moves forward. I'll have to dust off LMS again.

The reason I posted this image (from eSkeptic) is because it was about the best I could find on the web. It is a B&W copy of the Dahinden Cibachrome (DC). It is ideal for analysis because it is pretty big and retains good definition. That it is a B&W version makes it helpful because contrasts are easier to discern.

Of course eSkeptic published a retouched photo. That's because the used a copy of the DC, which is retouched. Virtually every image of frame 352 on the web and in print is derived from the DC. When you see the scarce "frame grabs" from the film itself, the hand is missing. That's because the PGF doesn't show a hand, only the DC does.

The hand doesn't look like something in the background, nor at the same distance as Patty, nor in the foreground. That is because the hand is more sharply defined than anything else in the image. The outline of the hand/fingers is such a wide and bold line that it looks cartoonish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom