Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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No, I feel no inclination to bother showing you anything at all. I post only to make sure other points of view are seen, not to change anyone's mind.

Considering the fact that many of these type of footprints are found in places where "Ray Wallace" wouldn't expect another person to find them

Not that silly argument again! For crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this ridiculous argument?

It's enough to make a person cry.
 
At this point, it doesn't matter who's cultural explanation is "right":

White Feather says it's a sasquatch, Igor says it's a werewolf, you say it's a fellow with hyperthrichosis, Krantz says it's a Gigantopithecus, many others on this forum say it was "Ray Wallace", etc.

What's sure is that something or someone made the footprint.

That was just another evasion attempt.

Considering the fact that many of these type of footprints are found in places where "Ray Wallace" wouldn't expect another person to find them, I tend to discount that explanation in some cases.

Considering the fact that many of these type of footprints are much larger than human, I tend to discount that explanation in some cases.

Considering the fact that I don't believe wolves can morph into human and back again (or vice versa), I tend to discount that explanation in all cases.

That leaves me with aboriginal or Krantz's explanation.

I call that reasoned judgement, and I really don't care if "science" likes it or not.

Your "reasoned judgement" taking in to account the nature of the avaliable data and its interpretation is quite faulty and incomplete at best. I also consider Krantz's and Meldrum's conclusions flawed, due to the nature of the evidence involved and also due to some flaws in their reasonings (mid-tarsal breaks, excuses for the absence of fossil record, the alleged link between Gigantopithecus and bigfeet, etc.).

Using some critical thinking over the all the avaliable data that I am aware of, I came to the conclusion that bigfeet most likely are not real.

I also don't care about pseudonihilistic rants.
 
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Originally Posted by Huntster :
At this point, it doesn't matter who's cultural explanation is "right":

White Feather says it's a sasquatch, Igor says it's a werewolf, you say it's a fellow with hyperthrichosis, Krantz says it's a Gigantopithecus, many others on this forum say it was "Ray Wallace", etc.

What's sure is that something or someone made the footprint.

That was just another evasion attempt.....

It was no more an evasion than your silly questions and diversions toward werewolves.

The point, which you repeatedly deny, is that there is something out there making footprints. You try to belittle the phenomenon by referring this to werewolves, and I'm saying that I don't care if you call it werewolf or sasquatch.

There is evidence that something is out there.

...Your "reasoned judgement" taking in to account the nature of the avaliable data and its interpretation is quite faulty and incomplete at best....

And so, what is your "reasoned judgement"?

... I also consider Krantz's and Meldrum's conclusions flawed, due to the nature of the evidence involved and also due to some flaws in their reasonings (mid-tarsal breaks, excuses for the absence of fossil record, the alleged link between Gigantopithecus and bigfeet, etc.)....

Considering the fact that they have invested lots of time and effort in hands-on research into this phenomenon, I'd consider their conclusions better informed than yours.

Again, what is yours?................

...Using some critical thinking over the all the avaliable data that I am aware of, I came to the conclusion that bigfeet most likely are not real.

Oh, yeah.

....I also don't care about pseudonihilistic rants....

And I'm not much impressed with a "critical thought" rendered without a "critical look" into the phenomenon.
 
No, I feel no inclination to bother showing you anything at all. I post only to make sure other points of view are seen, not to change anyone's mind.....

You asked..............

......What if these mythbuster bigfeet were to go to Bluff Creek and take a walk in front of an old 16mm movie camera?.........

I answered.

...Not that silly argument again! For crying out loud, how many times do we have to hear this ridiculous argument?....

Until it gets through.
 
Here's another word you can look up, Huntster.

Rhetorical.

Yes, all these prints were made where no one would find them, yet miraculously someone with casting plaster and a camera found them.

We've got it already. It makes absolutely no sense, but we've got it.
 
PS on Patty's thigh-bulge, breast position, and body-lines

Postscript on my post regarding the Bourtsev statuette of Patty:
I obtained, from Chris Murphy, a large photo of the image of the statuette shown on p. 96 of his Meet the Sasquatch. I was unable to post it, because it was too big. But I’ve subsequently realized that I can crop around the thigh-bulge and post only that portion, which I’ve done below. The bulge is not as prominent here as it is in two of the four frames in which it is visible in the film. But it is prominent enough that a person closely examining the figurine would ask himself and others what it was. Therefore, the sculptor did not conceal it.

Should he have made it more prominent? Perhaps. But it’s understandable why he didn’t, especially in an early stage of the investigation: it would have diverted attention to a side-issue. Perhaps it was an authenticating feature—a thigh hernia. Perhaps it was a damning feature—a costume fold. Perhaps it was some unknown anomaly. That would have been seen as an issue for specialists to debate. The main intent of the statuette was to communicate to the general public Patty’s ordinary appearance: her dimensions and posture (e.g., her forward lean and knee-bend):
Bayanov said:
The drawings and sculptures were meant as visual aids for those who haven’t been able to examine the film as thoroughly as we have.
Here are a couple of minor points I should have made:

1. Costume fold or thigh hernia?: The ripple of the thigh bulge lasts only four frames, or .25 seconds. A muscle twitch can occur that rapidly. Can a costume crease do so with equal rapidity? Can it do so in all sorts of material, or only in certain sorts? If the material is stretched as tightly as it appears to be over a “well-defined” body, how could there be enough slack in it for such a large ripple to manifest itself?

2. The Low position of Patty’s breasts: If they would be more convincing if placed higher on the chest, more like a human’s, why didn't Patterson do so himself? Also, here’s a supporting bit of testimony to the authenticity of their low position in the film:
The creature was a female, with breasts like a woman’s, but in a lower position on the chest.
3. Were the body-lines caused by a sappy paste?
Mark A. Hall said:
Edson’s observations on the outward appearance and smells associated with the Neo-Giants are especially revealing. He reports that he found traces of moss and sap where the creatures had brushed against trees. Specifically, he thought they used moss and sap as a body covering that gave them camouflage in the forest. … His ideas on the use of a paste to cause moss to adhere to them, given on pages 56-57 of the book, make a lot of sense. Such behavior would help explain features that have appeared in both the P-G film and the famous Redwoods video footage of August 1995. That is, things appear to be suspended from the bodies of the creatures in the films.
The “things” he has in mind include Cliff Crook’s supposed zipper tag (which I’ve dubbed “Patty’s reticule”) at her left waist (briefly visible), the egg-shaped blob that swings at Patty’s hip joint in some sequences, and the possible "tumor" on the right breast. Conceivably, these might also be the cause of Diogenes’ “Donuts” on the arms. (It might have caused the hair to clump together in ridges ringing the arms.) If a paste had been smeared on the body, that might also account for the mysterious crazy-quilt purplish lines seen in the Cibachrome prints on page 54 of Murphy’s Meet the Sasquatch. All this is highly speculative, natch. But, if the original film can be examined, its additional clarity should enable the iffy-ness of this possibility to be reduced in one direction or the other.

Hmm ... If poop were used as paste, that would account for the foul odor that's been reported.
 

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Postscript on my post regarding the Bourtsev statuette of Patty:

Perhaps it was an authenticating feature—a thigh hernia. Perhaps it was a damning feature—a costume fold. Perhaps it was some unknown anomaly.

Roger, surely the evidence is not so poor that we're reduced to debating an artistic recreation of the film subject?

But, if the original film can be examined, its additional clarity should enable the iffy-ness of this possibility to be reduced in one direction or the other.

Do you mean the original film, or the film that was released for public consumption?

RayG
 
yet there are some who still trot out the rumors that Chambers built the "suit" and even the Minnesota Iceman.
As far as the MN Iceman goes, Chambers did claim he made it. I read an item to this effect soemwhere on the web, and Googling for half an hour would probably turn it up. Additionally, within the past week, in response to an inquiry I'd sent him on another matter, Peter van Puttkamer, producer of the 1999 documentary "Sasquatch Odyssey" (available for $30 on Amazon--less for a used copy), told me that Chambers had told him from his nursing home (presumably by phone) that he'd made the Iceman.

Or AN Iceman. It would depend on the date he made it whether this was the "original" or the "copy." Too bad the date wasn't nailed down.

Two minor implications of this statement occur to me. First, that the OTHER folks who claim to have made the Iceman were just attention-seekers. (Or Chambers was. Or both were. Or the other family made the original Iceman and Chambers made the replacement. Or vice versa. Whatever. Anyway, not every “confession” can be taken at face value.)

Second, that Chambers didn't feel bound to keep mum about such deals. (Unless the pledge of confidentiality in the Patterson deal had been stronger than in the Iceman deal, as would have been more than likely.)

It's a Hall of Mirrors and Maybes!

(Chambers also repeated to van Puttkamer his denial that he'd made the Patterson Bigfoot.)
 
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Roger, I know we've been over this before, but on the BFF you've mentioned how Patty's lower leg is "disproportionately shorter", that the subject has "inhumanly short lower leg, in proportion to height", and that a man in a suit would require "legs that were inhumanly shorter."

Using this film frame, can you clearly explain (again) how you came to that conclusion?

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RayG
 
As far as the MN Iceman goes, Chambers did claim he made it. I read an item to this effect soemwhere on the web, and Googling for half an hour would probably turn it up. Additionally, within the past week, in response to an inquiry I'd sent him on another matter, Peter van Puttkamer, producer of the 1999 documentary "Sasquatch Odyssey" (available for $30 on Amazon--less for a used copy), told me that Chambers had told him from his nursing home (presumably by phone) that he'd made the Iceman.

Or AN Iceman. It would depend on the date he made it whether this was the "original" or the "copy." Too bad the date wasn't nailed down.

Two minor implications of this statement occur to me. First, that the OTHER folks who claim to have made the Iceman were just attention-seekers. (Or Chambers was. Or both were. Or the other family made the original Iceman and Chambers made the replacement. Or vice versa. Whatever. Anyway, not every “confession” can be taken at face value.)

Second, that Chambers didn't feel bound to keep mum about such deals. (Unless the pledge of confidentiality in the Patterson deal had been stronger than in the Iceman deal, as would have been more than likely.)

It's a Hall of Mirrors and Maybes!

(Chambers also repeated to van Puttkamer his denial that he'd made the Patterson Bigfoot.)

I don't want to go off on a tangent here, because everyone has been so good about staying on topic, but I think Chambers built a gaff called the "Burbank Bigfoot". I was recently sent a photocopy of an old article from a Las Vegas newspaper to this effect. I'll have to look in Scott McClean's wonderful "Big News Prints" to see if the "Burbank Bigfoot" is mentioned there.

My understanding is that Chambers built a freestanding gaff and not one to be encased in a block of ice. I'll double check my sources, but I don't believe Chambers had anything to do with the Fat-Fingered-Freak or "Minnesota Iceman". Perhaps someone should google "Burbank Bigfoot" in the meantime.
 
Eighty years.
For that long, there have been only unverified sightings. The very occasional set of tracks crossing a remote snowfield. In recent years, perhaps a fleeting image on some motion-detector camera high in the North Cascades. Evidence aptly illusory of animals that might as well have been ghosts of the boreal forest -? albeit ghosts with a reputation for unparalleled ferocity.

For eight decades, even scientists couldn't say for sure whether this state was home to even one member of this elusive animal species.

Until two weeks ago. Now they know all about one.

And her name is Melanie.....

I guess all those eyewitnesses and reports of tracks weren't lies, after all.

Imagine that.

Read about it here.
 
Roger, I know we've been over this before, but on the BFF you've mentioned how Patty's lower leg is "disproportionately shorter", that the subject has "inhumanly short lower leg, in proportion to height", and that a man in a suit would require "legs that were inhumanly shorter."

Using this film frame, can you clearly explain (again) how you came to that conclusion?

attachment.php


RayG


When I was taking anatomy it was a good rule of thumb that to see if legs were in average human proportion in a picture that you would hold your hand out, measure the distance between the knee and the hip between your thumb and forefinger and then take the same measure ment from hip to shoulder. In adult humans this measurement should be roughly the same.

In this photograph, it is roughly the same. That is a man, baby.
 
No one could be expected to find those wolverine tracks.... :D

So, we can find a little tiny wolverine in the vastness of the PNW, but not a sasquatch?

We can even find genuine wolverine tracks in the vast PNW, despite the fact that there aren't many wolverines in the area. Fortunately, we can say whether or not a track was made by a wolverine, whether hair came from a wolverine, etc. Solid evidence.
 
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I guess all those eyewitnesses and reports of tracks weren't lies, after all.

Imagine that.

Read about it here.

80 years, and they found it to be a previously catalogued animal with verifiable specimens to compare it to.

If they would have claimed this was a baby alien crawling through the snow during those eighty years, only to find that it was a wolverine afterall, then you would have yourself a fine analogous story.
 
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