Merged Bigfoot follies

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LTC8K6 said:

Did you see what I posted from Richard Noll?
I believed that article too, and even posted it during a debate on BFF concerning Krantz' gullibility. I'd seen a demonstration on television with the faker.

Noll got the truth from Dahinden himself.


"The one cast that was sent to Dr. Grover Krantz was a discrediting tactic put out as a challenge from Rene Dahinden and answered by an Ohio resident. Only certain areas on the cast had ridge detail that Grover felt looked good. Instead of attacking Grover... why hasn't anyone attacked the perpetrators? I always have found this interesting."

Incidents like this make investigators even more careful. Hefty fines and jail terms for hoaxers might deter people from wasting the time and money of serious investigators.
Bryne & co. stopped jumping into the vehicles at every call on the hotline due to prank phone calls from teenaged boys who seem to think they were being funny. They settled for feeding data into the computer in hopes of finding seasonal migration patterns or some other clue to where to set up camera traps.
One incident he described to me seemed very credible, with two witnesses and track evidence showing the exact motion the witnesses described, but so much was trampled by curious onlookers that tracking was impossible.
 
LAL said:


I appreciate your open attitude.
As I've mentioned, I've been interested in the phenomenon since 1968. I'm not sure I know what you mean by where I'm coming from, but at the time it was California.

Your welcome but; I’m not a believer in much except that the error correcting mechanism inherent in the scientific process will settle the matter. I also think that every day a specimen does not show up is another nail in the coffin of the “Bigfoot is an unknown animal” theory.

By “where are you coming from” I mean; “what are your credentials?” You defend the faith very skillfully but I don’t know how much first-hand experience you may have I too became interested in Bigfoot and other “Fortiana” around ’68. But, I’m not a researcher. More of a dabbler and proletarian satirist.

LAL said:

And if all evidence so far (there's a ton) is to be dismissed as "not conclusive", when will we get that full scale scientific expedition Goodall thinks is warranted?

I would be far more impressed if Goodall wrote a paper. Some quotes on a Bigfoot video are not impressive. As far as evidence? Another parallel to the UFO thing is an abundance of poor evidence. A hundred pieces of scat or a thousand plaster prints do not necessarily make an animal. Nor do blurry photos and eye witness accounts. Neither does passionate belief.

The only proof will be lots of very high quality photos/vidios and/or a specimen. That I believe is how real animal classification works.
 
No body cells present, perhaps. It's not like CSI out there in the real world. If there'd been body cells of any animal they should have shown up in the testing.
In the real world, animals can't chew food without leaving part of themselves behind..

Why do you insist the chewed apple is evidence of the existance of this creature, then suggest it was sterilized before it was discarded?

How do you expect to be taken seriously?
 
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Originally posted by LAL

And if all evidence so far (there's a ton) is to be dismissed as "not conclusive", when will we get that full scale scientific expedition Goodall thinks is warranted?

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If Goodall thinks it's warranted, I would suspect she has the clout to make it happen.
 
LAL said:


I have no idea what a "woo", but I'm rather sure I don't fit the description. Ad hominem attacks are an automatic loss under the rules of debate anyway, aren't they?

Woo is a somewhat derogatory slang for “person with irrational belief.” It’s a pretty new term in the lexicon (this lexicon anyway.)

But I believe he said “it’s pure woo behavior.” Not “you woo!” In which case he might be attacking the idea, not the person.

As-hom is against rules of debate but people here don’t always follow those--which is OK in my mind. JREF is more like a late night bull session at a really strange convention than a formal debate.
 
Diogenes said:
In the real world, animals can't chew food without leaving part of themselves behind..

Why do you insist the chewed apple is evidence of the existance of this creature, then suggest it was sterilized before it was discarded?



I didn't, to begin with. Why are you saying I said things I didn't say?
The DNA testing yielded nothing useful from the peels. "Why" is my speculation. They were hoping there'd be something in saliva traces.


How do you expect to be taken seriously?

Well, with people whose minds are made up, I don't. The usual tactic is to throw in leprechauns and then go scoffing off the board.
Arguing with hard core sceptics on this is like arguing with Creationists.

"Show me some evidence."
"Okay, here's some evidence."
"That's not evidence."
"Okay, here's some more evidence."
"That's not evidence."
"Okay, here's a mountain of evidence."
"Someone said that bit of evidence over there could have been faked."
"Okay, here's evidence that it wasn't."
"That's not evidence."
 
The Odd Emperor said:
Woo is a somewhat derogatory slang for “person with irrational belief.” It’s a pretty new term in the lexicon (this lexicon anyway.)

But I believe he said “it’s pure woo behavior.” Not “you woo!” In which case he might be attacking the idea, not the person.



Oh, well that's certainly not me, nor my behavior, nor the ideas. I look at this with the same lens I use on everything else.
I guess I can relax on my implications about the poster's maturity. I was getting close to an ad hominem attack myself, actually.

As-hom is against rules of debate but people here don’t always follow those--which is OK in my mind. JREF is more like a late night bull session at a really strange convention than a formal debate.

Ah, good. The boards I'm used to aren't formal debate either, but some of the logic jockeys tend to forget that when they've lost.
"Ah, that was an ad hominem attack; you lose." "No it wasn't." "Clearly it was; the conversation is at an end." "You're filtered."

And the content gets lost in the mud-slinging.

Found this fairly balanced look last night (there are some errors, such as on Wallace):

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Bigfoot

Check the links on some of the experts who have taken an interest.
One thing that struck me in the Post story was Ciochon's concern that funding would be drawn away from his own work on
Gigantopithecus blacki.
Could fear of loss of funding be one reason some scientists shy away?

I read Dr. John Bindernagle's book (got it through the local library) and after that found it impossible to think of these creatures as anything but a normal, if elusive, animal. He relates the throwing behaviour to Great Apes. Bears and elk certainly do not do that.
Something on/from him:

"In the last 14 years more reports on the island have come to light due to the work of Vancouver Island wildlife biologist and Sasquatch investigator, John Bindernagle. He suspects the number of sightings to be much higher than reported, but says people often don’t come forward for fear of ridicule.

“Because of the sort of taboo nature of this animal, most sightings do not become reports, and most people don’t know where to report them anyway,” he explained. “This is just the tip of the iceberg.”
Bindernagle said that it won’t be long before indisputable evidence is found.

“What we’re going to need is a road kill or the actual carcass,” he said. “In the meantime, we have so much evidence—tracks and eyewitness accounts—the problem is to get other scientists to look at this evidence, but they won’t even address it.”

Most scientists, he said, refuse to engage the evidence found thus far, instead relying on mainstream media and tabloid reports that are done without scientific consultation.

“We have a real problem with a non-human primate existing anywhere in North America. It’s too bizarre for us; it’s too bizarre for scientists,” he said. “This is what keeps me going. [People who report sightings] are not idiots, but they’re being treated as idiots.”

http://www.martlet.ca/archives/040916/feature.html

He became interested when he came across a trackway while hiking in a wilderness area.
I saved a site on papers he's presented, but haven't found it yet.
 
The Odd Emperor said:
Your welcome but; I’m not a believer in much except that the error correcting mechanism inherent in the scientific process will settle the matter. I also think that every day a specimen does not show up is another nail in the coffin of the “Bigfoot is an unknown animal” theory.

I seem to have heard that idea more than once over the last few decades.
If all activity had stopped after the Patterson film, I might buy into it, but the BFRO gets several reports a day. More people are carrying cameras routinely, and with the support of over 3000 members of the BFRO, there may be something conclusive in what's left of my lifetime. I hate to see the "mystery" end, but the chance to say, "I told to so" to a few rude people would be delicious.



I would be far more impressed if Goodall wrote a paper. Some quotes on a Bigfoot video are not impressive.

What would she write it on? She's in Africa studying Chimpanzees. This is not her area of expertise. Meldrum has the best shot at being published in "real" peer review, I would think. He may have done the most field work on it.
Sarmiento may take a look when he's finished the Bili Ape project, I hear. You've heard of the apparent new "giant" Chimpanzee species (with Gorilla-like behavior) from well-explored Africa?
Another "native legend" comes to life.
 
LAL said:


I hate to see the "mystery" end, but the chance to say, "I told to so" to a few rude people would be delicious.

Hmm; Rudeness begets rudeness, begets rudeness ad-infinitum-halleluiah-amen.

LAL said:

What would she write it on? She's in Africa studying Chimpanzees. This is not her area of expertise. Meldrum has the best shot at being published in "real" peer review, I would think. He may have done the most field work on it.
Sarmiento may take a look when he's finished the Bili Ape project, I hear. You've heard of the apparent new "giant" Chimpanzee species (with Gorilla-like behavior) from well-explored Africa?
Another "native legend" comes to life.

Thanks; that's a very good question. Why did Goodall even make such a statement and who cares? If as you say, it's not her area of expertise than she has no more right to make declarations on Bigfoot than you or I.

Since she seems to have done one of the few cultural anthropology studies on primates, I think she’s very qualified to render an opinion based on the evidence she’s seen. But like most researchers, she can’t just run off and do whatever she would like to do.

In any case, new species are discovered every day. Most of the time a set of really good photos or a specimen is provided in order to make a classification. Should we not impose the same standards to the Bigfoot phenomena and if not. Why not?
 
LAL said:


Check the links on some of the experts who have taken an interest.
One thing that struck me in the Post story was Ciochon's concern that funding would be drawn away from his own work on
Gigantopithecus blacki.
Could fear of loss of funding be one reason some scientists shy away?

[/B]

I think it’s the primary reason. Look. What would you do? Play the game, get a nice fat research grant and a bunch of hungry grad students (slaves) working for you? Or live in a nice $40,000 manufactured home, drive a bike to your dishwashing job and wish you’d never written that #$$%# monster book back in the 'day' before you had tenyar.
 
The Odd Emperor said:
Hmm; Rudeness begets rudeness, begets rudeness ad-infinitum-halleluiah-amen.



I'm thinking of people I've never been rude to, actually. One in particular believes in the Biblical Flood but not in evolution. I've come close to banning him from my presence.


Thanks; that's a very good question. Why did Goodall even make such a statement and who cares?




I care. It came about after the radio interview where she "came out". Having a few people with stature to opt for the "pro" side makes a difference in encouraging others to take a serious look, even if only to find out why the expert said such a thing.

If as you say, it's not her area of expertise than she has no more right to make declarations on Bigfoot than you or I.



Offhand, I'd say she has more expertise on Chimpanzees than you or I, or just about anyone else. Her methods of observation would be useful if Sasquatches would only stay put long enough. I'm noticing several experts in primatology have said similar things, but I'm not coming up with any quotes from physicists. I wonder why that is?;)
One poster on another board (never mind his degrees are in Geology, which qualified him to rediagnose Cripplefoot's deformity as a crushing injury, after saying it's fake) dismissed all researchers as "experts working out of their fields", but since there's no field of Sasquatology, how does one work in it? Primatology is the proper field, IMO.



Since she seems to have done one of the few cultural anthropology studies on primates, I think she’s very qualified to render an opinion based on the evidence she’s seen. But like most researchers, she can’t just run off and do whatever she would like to do.



Right. She and George Schaller would make a good team, don't you think? Maybe they could apply for funding when they retire.



In any case, new species are discovered every day. Most of the time a set of really good photos or a specimen is provided in order to make a classification. Should we not impose the same standards to the Bigfoot phenomena and if not. Why not?

Well, until that full-scale scientific investigation gets going, it's all in the hands of "amateurs". I imagine Meldrum would love to head it, but he's tied up with his duties at Idaho State. I take it his grant request was denied, and I have no idea what he did last summer.
Most sightings are at night. Most last about 20 seconds. What film and video there is gets rejected out of hand as "too grainy", "too fuzzy", "could be a guy in a suit", etc. Most hunters hunt by day and don't get too far from the vehicle in case they actually manage to shoot something.
And so on.
There are, to my knowlege, no full-time researchers in the field with proper equipment and grants.
According to Christopher Murphy, the NASI/Glickman report was submitted to various scientific journals, which all refused to publish it.
So, maybe we could apply the same standards if we could get rid of the double standards.
 
The Odd Emperor said:
I think it’s the primary reason. Look. What would you do? Play the game, get a nice fat research grant and a bunch of hungry grad students (slaves) working for you? Or live in a nice $40,000 manufactured home, drive a bike to your dishwashing job and wish you’d never written that #$$%# monster book back in the 'day' before you had tenyar.

Oh, I'd be like Dr. Krantz. Here's a report from one of his grad students:

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/sbs/somer87.htm

And an obituary on him:

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/groverdies.htm

Interesting they got the university wrong in the headline but correct in the story.

Here's more:

"Like many men who labor at the margins of respectability, Krantz had a paranoid streak. He was convinced that many of the giant footprints he documented were faked by people whose motivations he could never understand. Yet also like many on the fringes, his experience of rejection by the mainstream made him cling more tenaciously than ever to the possibility that his grail did exist. It appalled him that his colleagues did not regard the Sasquatch question as an open one. He denounced their careerism and timidity. He wrote, "Anything that suggests association with the lunatic fringe, and sasquatch is a classic, can certainly retard one's professional career."

He attributed his own delayed tenure to this. For every paper rejected or career advancement denied there was a ready explanation: the closed-minded bastards want to run me out of the profession. "[F]inding proof of the sasquatch would mean that almost all anthropologists and primatologists would have to admit that they were wrong about something," he grumbled. Yet he seemed to court rejection. At one point he wore prosthetic brow ridges for six months running to determine their function in Homo erectus. Noting the startled looks of passers-by, he concluded they may have been some kind of signaling device.

He had an answer for every skeptical question.

Q: Why hasn't anybody ever discovered a sasquatch skeleton?

A: There are also very few reports of bear bones being found, outside of those killed by humans. Megafauna seek out secluded locations to die and their remains quickly decompose. After all, if the plains were once covered in buffalo, where are those bones?

Q: Why are there so few well-attested sightings?

A: Sasquatch are nocturnal - which conveniently also minimizes their conflict with diurnal grizzlies. Also, they are shy.

Q: Why don't we hear more from hunters, who spend lots of time in the woods?

A: There are lots of Sasquatch hunters out there, but even if they saw one they wouldn't tell anybody because hunters are so secretive. Also, the timber interests don't want the word to get out because then they'd have to develop a conservation plan.


http://www.goodbyemag.com/jan02/krantz.html

No wonder Dahinden was out to get him.
 
LAL said:
And if all evidence so far (there's a ton) is to be dismissed as "not conclusive", when will we get that full scale scientific expedition Goodall thinks is warranted?

LAL said:

This is not her area of expertise.


Are you really unaware of your inconsistency here?


Isn't ' Name Dropping ' right up there with ' Ad Hom ', when it comes to debating ?
 
Diogenes said:
Are you really unaware of your inconsistency here?

And whose area of expertise is it? Even Meldrum investigates as a sideline, and he's become the standard-bearer since Krantz' death.
I value Goodall's opinion, but she hasn't done the hands-on research Meldrum, et al, have done. They should be the ones to publish, IMO, if any mainstream journal will accept the paper.



Isn't ' Name Dropping ' right up there with ' Ad Hom ', when it comes to debating ?


No that I know of, but argumentum ad ignorantiam might be.
Sourcing her opinion is hardly "name-dropping".
 
Thought I'd sit back for a while and watch the debate.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Still no DNA.

Only films and impressions and hair of questionable authenticity.

I'm waiting, and I could be wrong but I have a feeling I'll be waiting for a long time. Meanwhile, the topic keeps going back to he said, she said and debate tactics.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Wow, that could be a poem.
 
Red Siegfried said:
Thought I'd sit back for a while and watch the debate.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Still no DNA.

Only films and impressions and hair or questionable authenticity.

I'm waiting, and I could be wrong but I have a feeling I'll be waiting for a long time. Meanwhile, the topic keeps going back to he said, she said and debate tactics.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Wow, that could be a poem.

...it is!
 
LAL said:
Q: Why hasn't anybody ever discovered a sasquatch skeleton?

A: There are also very few reports of bear bones being found, outside of those killed by humans. Megafauna seek out secluded locations to die and their remains quickly decompose. After all, if the plains were once covered in buffalo, where are those bones?

They may not be laying around in lage numbers any more, but buffalo skeletons do exist.

Q: Why are there so few well-attested sightings?

A: Sasquatch are nocturnal - which conveniently also minimizes their conflict with diurnal grizzlies. Also, they are shy.

How do we know they're nocturnal? The only films or pictures I've seen of Sasquatches moving around were shot in daylight.

Q: Why don't we hear more from hunters, who spend lots of time in the woods?

A: There are lots of Sasquatch hunters out there, but even if they saw one they wouldn't tell anybody because hunters are so secretive. Also, the timber interests don't want the word to get out because then they'd have to develop a conservation plan.

Now you're just in the realm of pure woo: "Hunters see them all the time but keep it secret?" Fox Mulder would laugh in your face for that one.
 
Hitch said:
They may not be laying around in lage numbers any more, but buffalo skeletons do exist.




In dry conditions. The wet, acid soils of the Cascade Range, e.g., do not preserve bones. The scavenger system is extremely efficient.



How do we know they're nocturnal? The only films or pictures I've seen of Sasquatches moving around were shot in daylight.




There's a link to a night shot of a possible Skunk Ape on this thread.


"Appendix I


The nocturnality of the Sasquatch has been questioned on occasion. This subject can also be approached statistically, though directed at the observers rather than the observed. Let us take a hypothetical area randomly seeded with Sasquatches, evenly distributed during day and night. Their apparent temporal distribution will depend on them being seen by human observers. Let us assume a very conservative ratio of such alert observers during dayÂ_light as compared to the hours of total darkness in the mountains to be 20:1. A daylight observer will have a circular observational area with a radius of, say, 500 feet (152 m);recognition of the subject will thus be unambigÂ_uous over roughly 800,0002 feet (72,0002 m).A night-time observer has, at best, the expanding cone of headlights in one direction with recognition of a grey object at 300 feet (91 m) (Bosch 1970), and an expanding width of illumination to 100 feet (30 m) a sector with an area of about 15,0002 feet (1,3502 m). Factoring in the number of observers produces a ratio of 800,000 x 20:15,000 x1, or better than 1,000:1. That is the ratio at which Sasquatch sightings should be distributed between day and night, a number that will get more extreme if flashlights or moonlight is the alternative illumination. An actual ratio cited by Green (1978) consists of 1,275 sightings, of which 735 occurred during the day and 540 during the night, or a 58 to 42 ratio (1.38 to 1). If only sightings on roads are considered, the ratio shifts to 1:1.4 in favor of night sightings. This discrepancy can be interpreted as activity by the Sasquatch that exposes it to being seen about 1,500 times more often at night than an even distribution would predict. This nocturnality would render the elaborate body language common to primates invisible most of the time, and might account for a compensatory development of more comÂ_plex vocalizations in the Sasquatch.


http://www.bfro.net/REF/THEORIES/WHF/FahrenbachArticle.htm


Now you're just in the realm of pure woo: "Hunters see them all the time but keep it secret?" Fox Mulder would laugh in your face for that one.

Me? It's a quote from Dr. Krantz, and possibly a sarcastic one at that. Did you see my comment?
 
I find it interesting that both sides have used Grizzlies. Sceptics say people are seeing upright Grizzlies and Krantz mentions diurnal Grizzlies. To my knowlege there are no Grizzlies on the western slope of the Cascade range. Bears there are Black Bears.
And no one familiar with Black Bears could mistake an upright Black Bear for a bipedal hominid primate.

Someone asked about the "feeding lot". This is what the ACA team was referring to:

"Now, we found one field that we think is a feasting field, where you could have even a family of Bigfoots. It had dozens of bones and literally thousands of feathers such as this, what appears to be an eagle's wing with the bone attached. A femur of a deer. And the same up here. We also found the skull of a deer. So the idea is that this could be an area where Bigfoot or his family feast. And importantly, you see that the bone has the feathers on from the eagle. Normally bears and other predators don't pluck birds before they eat them. This would indicate we're dealing with some sort of primate. A more intelligent creature, i.e. a possible Bigfoot here.

BRETT HUDSON: Bone marrow.

DR. FRANKLIN R. RUEHL, PH.D.: Oh, that's right. And here we have a bone that was apparently from a deer. The marrow's sucked out. So possibly this creature enjoys feasting on bone marrow of other creatures. And the question of course arises, what does Bigfoot eat? Well, he was found here along the shore. At this time, the fish-- this is early spring-- all congregate near the shore. So he may be a fish eater. Also while we were in the field one night, we heard a thousand frogs croaking. In fact I did not believe they were frogs. They sounded, it sounded like an auto factory. It was so loud. Then suddenly, silence. An eerie silence, as though some predator, perhaps, had suddenly appeared in the area. Perhaps Bigfoot enjoys eating amphibians and the frogs realize that. They later resumed their noise. But it was an eerie moment for us."


http://wriversasquatchassoc.net/index51 acapressconf.html
 
Red Siegfried said:
Thought I'd sit back for a while and watch the debate.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Still no DNA.

Only films and impressions and hair of questionable authenticity.

I'm waiting, and I could be wrong but I have a feeling I'll be waiting for a long time. Meanwhile, the topic keeps going back to he said, she said and debate tactics.

Still no bigfoot, dead or alive.

Wow, that could be a poem.

Take a look at some the sceptics' arguments:

Could have been hoaxed.

Couldn't have been hoaxed, so it must be an elk.

Dennett says so.

Daegling says so.

Somebody says so.

Scientists don't know what they're doing.

Scientists do know what they're doing, but they didn't say that.

Fingerprint experts don't know what they're doing.

Ridiculous.

Woo behaviour.



I'm not even going to try to rhyme that.



Hairs from the Skookum imprint were tested for DNA. Contamination couldn't be ruled out.
But what if they weren't contaminated?

Hairs from the recent Manitoba incident aren't resembling known NA mammals either. Big surprise.


Gonna go get some tissue, now.
First must find Sasquatch.
Must shoot with grabber dart, reel it in then run like hell.
Ah! Might find dead one in bear den.
Oops!
Must go faster!

This ain't easy, kids.
 
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