Merged Bigfoot follies

Status
Not open for further replies.
LAL said:
Also, you can't see 10' into the brush.

Isn't my opinion clear? The reading reinforces it, but living in Sasquatch country was what really got me into this. A friend of mine from Oregon says it's accepted around Corvallis that they're real.

Now, please present the evidence that they don't exist.

No problem!

"No Results Available.

Your search for "Bigfoot" did not match any of the common names in our database. Here are some possible solutions:

* Be sure that your subject is a living mammal native to North America
* Search among scientic names using the button below
* Search for this common name in Mammal Species of the World
* Try common name search again, but enter only the first part of your search term or another common name for the same mammal.

RE
http://www.mnh2.si.edu/education/mna/search_name.cfm

The Smithsonian, National Museum of Natural History does not have a listing.
Why? Because they don’t exist.

Ball—back in your camp.
 
varwoche said:
Am I correct to assume that you are not intentionally implying that Thomas is a professional wildlife biologist? From his about page:
I take it from your post that Thomas references a wildlife biologist? Can you provide a direct link, or a credible click-path to an article? Life is too short and time too precious for me to conduct a scientific inquiry -- any inquiry actually -- via the web site of a random, anonymous bozo.

I will consider Thomas' site, however, for any debates concerning the postal system in Wales.

Thomas is a collector. The articles come from many sources. Hewkin's article was originally published in Cryptozology magazine, which may be defunct now. It was peer reviewed and started because most mainstream journals don't publish this sort of thing. Articles on Bigfoot tend to show up on websites devoted to Bigfoot. Funny.

It's a good site, full of good information (from the sceptical side as well). Thomas' occupation in no way discredits the site.

There's something very debatable in Hewkin's article. I was hoping for some debate on that rather than on the postal system in Wales.

When the Smithsonian starts putting Sasquatch information on their website, I'll be the first to let you know. (If they don't mind making $16,000 off an IDer, maybe there's hope. ;))
 
The Odd Emperor said:
No problem!

"No Results Available.

Your search for "Bigfoot" did not match any of the common names in our database. Here are some possible solutions:

* Be sure that your subject is a living mammal native to North America
* Search among scientic names using the button below
* Search for this common name in Mammal Species of the World
* Try common name search again, but enter only the first part of your search term or another common name for the same mammal.

RE
http://www.mnh2.si.edu/education/mna/search_name.cfm

The Smithsonian, National Museum of Natural History does not have a listing.
Why? Because they don’t exist.

Ball—back in your camp.

They do not have a listing because Sasquatches have not been collected and identified yet. A scientist with the Smithsonian concluded they exist. A scientist with the Museum of Natural History in New York has done the same (I've read he intends to look into it when he's finished with the Bili Ape project). Evidently scientists at Yerkes found the PGF to be authentic. What held back an investigation then? Couldn't have been ridicule from sceptics, could it?
 
Luke T. said:
Okay. A "Bigfoot expert" has debunked the video.




* First of all no such thing as a Bigfoot "expert" exists. Their may be specialists in ichnology, zoology, scatology , or trichology who are studying purported evidence of these creatures, of which some claim to number at least 3 or 4 diffrent kinds around the world { two types in the USA}, but an expert would be someone who has studied their anatomy and physiology {with both live and dead specimens} their ecology, diet, mating habits, ancestors and other phenotypic traits. Nobody has these qualifications.
BTW as many hoaxes as exist does not disqualify all purported evidence of such a creature or creatures around the world. For example Piltdown Man was a hoax, but this fake fossil amalgam did not destry the crdibility of all humanoid fossils.*

So we know it's fake because the real Bigfoot is a large, barrel-chested creature.

Oh.

Source.
 
Borody's "research center" is his house. He should have been in Norway House instead of home doing his armchair impression of David Daegling.

Another "bigfoot expert" (at least he founded and heads the BFRO) found it credible. And he actually went up there.
 
Originally posted by LAL Thomas' occupation in no way discredits the site.
It doesn't discredit the article per se. It simply makes it not worth the time to read it.

Suppose the article said something contoversial. Not only would I have to concern myself about the author's facts and credentials. Because I was consuming information from the web site of a random, anonymous bozo, I would also have to concern myself with the possibility that the expert was invented by the bozo, or otherwise falsified.
Thomas is a collector. The articles come from many sources. Hewkin's article was originally published in Cryptozology magazine, which may be defunct now. It was peer reviewed and started because most mainstream journals don't publish this sort of thing.
You are asking me to take the word of two random, anonymous bozos, you being the second. This is not meant as an insult. Anyone whom I interact with online is a random, anonymous bozo (until I've interacted with the individual sufficiently to assign some credibility).

If you can't provide a credible click-path to the article, can you post some information about the author so that I can confirm he's a real human being, and he is who is who he says he is?
Articles on Bigfoot tend to show up on websites devoted to Bigfoot. Funny.
Fair enough. But surely you aren't suggesting that all web sites devoted to bigfoot are operated by random, anonymous bozos with no scientific credentials. Are you? Funny. ;)
 
varwoche said:
It doesn't discredit the article per se. It simply makes it not worth the time to read it.

Suppose the article said something contoversial. Not only would I have to concern myself about the author's facts and credentials. Because I was consuming information from the web site of a random, anonymous bozo, I would also have to concern myself with the possibility that the expert was invented by the bozo, or otherwise falsified. You are asking me to take the word of two random, anonymous bozos, you being the second. This is not meant as an insult. Anyone whom I interact with online is a random, anonymous bozo (until I've interacted with the individual sufficiently to assign some credibility).

If you can't provide a credible click-path to the article, can you post some information about the author so that I can confirm he's a real human being, and he is who is who he says he is? Fair enough. But surely you aren't suggesting that all web sites devoted to bigfoot are operated by random, anonymous bozos with no scientific credentials. Are you? Funny. ;)

Field Report
INVESTIGATING SASQUATCH EVIDENCE IN THE
PACIFIC NORTHWEST

By James A. Hewkin, Retired Dept of Fish & Wildlife, 1983

Unpublicized Sasquatch investigations were conducted in remote areas of the Cascade Mountains of Oregon, and other areas of the Pacific Northwest, over a 10-year period beginning in 1973. Various forms of evidence were uncovered, including eyewitness testimony, footprint tracks, split stumps and logs, and rock piles. Some of the evidence indicates the presence of a still-unrecognized species of large, bipedal primate in North America.

As a professional wildlife biologist, author Jim Hewkin first became interested in Sasquatch reports in the late 1950's. Since that time, Sasquatch, believed by many to be an unknown, bipedal primate, remains unrecognized as a living member of the natural fauna on the North American continent. Sighting reports continue to make news in the Northwest; the sources are citizens of all walks of life. However, numerous sighting reports are not made public, and are not solicited. Good Sasquatch data are difficult to obtain. There are hundreds of Sasquatch stories. Many do not bear scrutiny, while those of sound basis spark considerable interest among serious investigators. Readers interested in general works on the subject should refer to Byrne (1975), Green (1978), Hunter with Dahinden (1973), Markotic and Krantz (1984), Napier (1973), and Sprague and Krantz (1979).

Hewkin conducted his investigations in an unpublicized, low-key manner. More than 200 trips were taken into remote mountain areas, mostly on the western slope of the Oregon Cascades, the Coastal Ranges, the Siskiyous and British Columbia. Most Pacific Northwest areas where Sasquatch has been reported have been visited, primarily to determine if here is a discernible pattern of evidence. Hewkin's report includes observations of rock piles and pits, examination of torn up stumps and logs, the finding of footprints, and interviews with witnesses.

Before intervention by man, the western slopes of the Cascade Mountains were dominated by dense stands of old-growth coniferous forests. Now there are thousands of acres of timberland growing into diverse plant communities of second-growth forest. Forestlands are replanted with conifers, but growth rates, survival, and health vary with soil type, elevation, exposure, moisture, and a host of other factors, including insects, fire, disease, etc. Human intervention and population growth have eliminated considerable forest habitat, while creating urban areas and intensively managed agricultural lands. Most remaining old-growth forest is located in remote rugged portions of the mountain ranges

In general, lower- to mid-elevation forests contain a mix of Douglas fir, hemlock, and western red cedar (about 1,500 to 3,000 feet elevation). These species give way to Pacific silver fir, noble fir, and mountain hemlock at higher elevations (about 3,000 to 4,500 feet). Sub-alpine meadows are present on some high ridges (about 4,200 to 5,500 feet), often associated with volcanic up thrust that form rock points and steep talus slides. Riparian habitats include swift bouldered streams, small lakes, ponds, and bogs, which provide good biotic diversity. Common mammals include mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus), elk (Cervus elaphus), puma (Felis concolor), bobcat (Felis rufus), coyote (Canis latrans), black bear (Ursus americanus), and many smaller animals. Habitat alterations by man cause dramatic changes in the abundance and distribution of these animal populations.

Moisture falls in the form of snow in the higher elevations (above 3,200 feet) throughout the winter months (November to March). In general, the region receives a high amount of rainfall (about 48 inches annually in low elevations, and as much as 78 inches in the higher elevations). The winter snow pack in the higher elevations will vary 3 to 9 feet, depending on exposure and drift. Generally, by early June, hard-packed snow remains on the ridges at the 4,000-foot elevation. July and August are generally dry. In many areas, the under story is difficult to penetrate by foot travel, and access is usually gained by game trails and/or established trail systems. The U.S. Forest Service maintains a few trails, but many have been abandoned.

Plant species forming dense stands include salal (see definition below), sword fern, Oregon grape, thimbleberry and salmonberry in various combinations and sometimes in pure stands. Rhododendron often forms the under story of elevations above 3,500 feet, and fingers of white alder thickets are common along steep spring fed slopes. The heavy annual winter snowdrifts that remain until mid-June generally deform these shrubs.

One of the most revealing Sasquatch sightings reported took place in the Oregon Cascades in 1967. A logger described the activities of what he thought was a family of three Sasquatches (two adults and an infant) as they searched for hibernating rodents on a rocky ridge, digging up rocks and piling them up, finding nests of rodents, and eating them on the spot (Green 1968).

On September 3, 1973, I located this site after spending 3 days searching the area. Further examination on the ridge indicated many old rock piles and diggings. The only digging marks that appeared fresh were those that had been reported by the logger. During several seasons of visiting this area, I noted the presence of chipmunks (Eutamias), golden-mantled ground squirrels (Spermophilus lateralis), and pikas (Ochotona princeps). The golden mantled ground squirrel is perhaps the best candidate for the meals which were reportedly dug up by the Sasquatches, as these small rodents are heavy sleepers, and remain in a comatose state during hibernation.

While searching other ridges and canyons in the Cascades, I found much evidence of similar rock piles and pits. They were very old and moss-covered, with only one digging that appeared fresh. A departure from the pits and rock piles was an odd arrangement of trench-like excavations located on a remote rocky butte. The rocks were weathered and covered with lichens, indicating the digging was very old. Most of these rocks were of a size a man could handle (15-50 pounds), but it is difficult to explain the digging in terms of human activity. Approximately 50 feet of trench extended along the side of a steep talus slope, and another trench, approximately 15 feet in length, jutted away on another angle along the slope. I propose that Sasquatches may have piled rocks in this manner while attempting to capture pikas. These little rodents do not hibernate, and they would be difficult to catch while scampering under rocks.

In 1974, I teamed up with Jack Sullivan, who had worked intermittently with other Sasquatch investigators since the summer of 1969, and who was knowledgeable on other investigations in the Northwest. Through Sullivan, I was able to meet the logger who had reportedly witnessed the Sasquatches piling rocks. I conversed with this logger on several occasions, and always found him sincere, interesting, and not anxious to create publicity. (Sullivan and I interviewed several other witnesses during an 8-year period, and we conducted about two-dozen field trips. However, our part-time commitment meant we were always short on time to expand on these activities.)

On June 23, 1978, I located a different arrangement of rock piles in a canyon. This work also was old and covered with lichens and moss. However, the rocks were quite large (5 to 100+ pounds), had been piled in heaps, and were associated with trenches. There were 22 rock piles of various sizes (36 feet high). Some of these rocks were too large for a human to handle.

In order to satisfy my curiosity as to whether miners could have been involved, I led a person who was acquainted with gold mining to this site; he stated that the digging and rock piles didn't make any sense to him. This particular site was located at the bottom of a slide area.

The terrain in the Cascade Mountains is not easy for foot travel, and it does not show footprints clearly. It is usually hard and rocky, or in heavy timber. The forest floor is often "springy," with thick moss and leaf litter. Only on two occasions have I noticed strange prints, which could be interpreted as having been made by Sasquatch. The first incident occurred in September 1973. I had been examining a large mound of vegetation piled by pikas, when I noticed a track of scuffmarks across the talus slope a short distance away. Upon close examination, the scuffmarks appeared to be tracks left by a very heavy animal, because it had dislodged rocks at each step, causing an impression in the talus. My own walking over the same area seldom disturbed a rock. The distance between scuffmarks varied between 4 and 5 feet. I followed the track across the talus to a sheer drop, which blocked access to a brushy ravine and to an overhanging ledge on a higher level.

Backtracking and working my way down into the timber, I finally managed to get into the ravine, and was struggling through dense rhododendron, when I spotted a small opening. As I stepped forward, I saw, embedded in dry woody duff, a large footprint, about 5 inches longer than my 12-inch boot track, and wider. There was no toe detail, only a broad, flat print, with some taper to the heel, which was rounded and wider than my boot heel. I had no idea how old the print was, but I assumed it was probably related to the scuff marks I had followed across the talus, since it was on about the same contour level in the canyon. This was the only unidentified track noted in that area over several seasons.

The following year, on October 1, 1974, I found three unidentified prints in another drainage at an elevation of about 2,500 feet. These prints were only 10 inches long, and the stride was 48 inches, each print in a straight line with the other. The soft sand did not permit toe detail. Although the prints were shorter than my boot print, they were slightly wider. Upstream about a quarter of a mile, I noticed where the track-maker had apparently jumped from a large rock, which overhung the stream channel on the far bank, and had sunk deep heel prints into the wet sand at the edge of a pool. The fore part of the foot did not mark. This particular site is in a deeply forested canyon of mixed timber, fir, maple, and alder. A small, fast-flowing, bouldered stream drains the area.

Bears are known to spend much time searching for food items such as rodents, roots, and grubs in old stumps and logs, perhaps Sasquatches likewise search for similar food on the forest floor, grubbing through rotten logs and stumps and turning over rocks.

On April 28, 1975, while investigating a tract of second-growth timber (a mix of fir, hemlock, and cedar) at about 2,800 feet elevation, I noticed a stump that was freshly torn away on one side, and salal brush pulled off the top of the stump. There was no sign of claw marks on the stump. Tracking was impossible because of a dense under story of salal. A few feet distant, a log 4 feet in diameter was broken off at one end, and there was a dry area, 1 foot square, scraped clean (in a sheltered section on top of the log) where duff had been swept off. This activity could easily be passed over as bear sign, but no claw marks were evident.

Jack Sullivan and I found similar signs of activity in the Cascades on August 9, 1975, at about 3,500 feet elevation, in a patch of old-growth timber. Two rotted logs had been broken apart, and some pieces and slabs of wood were lying on top of the logs. The pieces of wood were about 3-4 feet long, and 4-6 inches thick. Other logs in the immediate area had evidence of fresh breakage, showing similar treatment, but without chunks of wood placed on top of them. If Sasquatches did this work, it appears they broke up the log by hand, and examined the pieces, leaving some lying on the log. A human could do the same--if he or she were strong enough to tear up the log. However, it is doubtful that a bear was involved, since no claw marks were visible on the logs.

Probably the most informative evidence uncovered came about via a report from a witness who stated that she had seen some large tracks in 2 inches of fresh snow in her backyard in the Cascade foothills. Neither Sullivan nor I could look into this report at the time because of other responsibilities. However, about a week later, I had the opportunity to investigate the incident. I interviewed the family on March 7, 1976. The witness, the mother of several children, was the only person in the family who had actually observed the tracks; she thought they were human tracks, but she could not understand why they were so big--about 1.5 feet in length, and spaced about 9 feet apart. Unfortunately, she had not bothered to go outside to examine the tracks closely; she had simply looked at them through the kitchen window. She also stated how angry she had been about their dog barking "like crazy" all night, not letting up until her daughters left for school in the morning. She then noticed the tracks while washing the breakfast dishes.

Before leaving the area, I talked to another man, who lived about a mile away, who claimed to have heard strange scratching noises on his back wall about a week earlier. His dog had also behaved erratically. The woman who had seen the prints did not know him.

A week later, we investigated the area adjacent to this man's residence. Being a low-elevation area (about 1,000 feet), snow does not remain on the ground long, and unfortunately, the snow that had fallen prior to the woman's sighting of the tracks had melted. The hills in this vicinity are timbered with second-growth Douglas fir, and a mixture of alder and maple. The ground cover is dominated by salal brush. In general, this foothills area contains an abundance of small drainages containing water year-round. Spring seepages that form boggy areas are common, and these sites
characteristically support dense stands of thimbleberry, salmonberry, and devil's club, in pure stands and mixed. The old-growth timber had been logged off about 50 years before, and the stumps and logs remaining were in a rotting stage. Salal brush had established luxuriant growth on the top of many of these stumps.

Strange evidence was found. An old-growth log had been split lengthwise, and the halves were lying side by side, almost touching. This particular log was approximately 3-4 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet long, quite rotted throughout, but which would still require tremendous strength for any animal to pull apart into two pieces.

Approximately 50 yards uphill from the split log was a stump with a fresh tear in one side from top to bottom, and the salal brush and bark had been ripped off. The stump was about 6 feet high and 4-5 feet in diameter, which is about average for old-growth stumps in this area. Another stump of similar size located a few yards beyond had also been torn on one side with salal brush pulled off the top of the stump. We searched for tracks, but could only find a partial indentation alongside one-half of the split log. It appeared to be the outside edge of a footprint in damp soil mixed with alder leaves and litter. There was no visible sign of the toes or heel. The total length of the print was about 12 inches.

More evidence was uncovered later in the day as we walked along an old skid road in a small wooded canyon approximately 1.5 miles from the earlier investigation site. Our initial impression was that someone had turned rocks over to enable vehicle access. The trail was rough but passable with 4 X 4 vehicles. By replacing one rock back into the original position, we realized it would not high-center a vehicle. These rocks were of a large, fiat type, the largest being about a foot or so in length, and possible for a human to handle. They were turned over and lying beside their original position in the road. For a distance of about 50 yards, - 10 to 12 rocks had been turned. This was the only sector of the trail showing large rock. There was no indication of vehicle use on the road, and we discounted the work of a person moving the rocks--unless someone was attempting a prank, which seemed unrealistic under the circumstances of our unpublicized investigation. No one had been aware that I was going to visit the residence where the woman had reported tracks. The conversation with the second individual was a spur-of-the-moment contact, over a mile away from the track location, and the two individuals claimed not to be acquainted. Our investigations in the wooded areas were unknown to anyone but ourselves.

The above collection of evidence, although not conclusive, was very impressive to us. We surmised that the rocks had been turned over during a search for grubs, beetles, etc.; the split log and torn stumps are a source of small rodents, roots, and grubs.

Although bear activity is similar, no claw marks were visible, and the split log was simply too large for a bear to tear apart. The following accounts are of other logs later found split open with no claw marks:

On April 19, 1976, I examined a freshly split log and several torn stumps. This site was below the snow line, at about 2,500 feet elevation, in a heavy stand of second-growth Douglas fir and hemlock, with a dense ground cover of salal. Most old-growth logs in this area were between 3 and 4 feet in diameter. No claw marks were visible on the stumps, and no tracks were found in the area.

On January 14, 1978, I examined a large rotted log, about 3 feet in diameter that had been rolled over and split lengthwise. This site was in the Coast Ranges in Clatsop County. No discernible claw marks were noted on the log to indicate bear activity. This site was on a mountainside covered with second-growth Douglas fir. The ground cover was mostly sword fern.

On January 2, 1980, a small split log (20 inches) was located together with an unidentified, partial footprint parallel to, and against, a split half of log. The location was in second-growth fir timber, with an under story of vine maple on the eastern slope of the Coast Ranges. This partial print was similar to the one mentioned above (a portion of outside foot edge).

Over the years, many torn stumps were investigated, but only the few split logs mentioned above have been found. Many of the torn stumps revealed claw marks, indicating bear activity, but all of the split logs were devoid of claw marks. Although not conclusive, this evidence indicates that an animal more powerful than a bear is present, and is capable of splitting logs by use of powerful shoulder and arm muscles.

One of the strangest reports came from a man who told us of his experiences trapping coyotes in 1970. He had dragged cattle carcasses with a 4 X 4 pickup truck to a brushy area, and had set traps around them. The cattle were obtained from a neighbor's feed lot, where they had died.

His troubles began when he found his traps sprung by someone or something using sticks. Thinking it was a neighbor with whom he was not on good terms, he accused him of the deed. He then discovered that one of the cows had been moved a short distance; later, it disappeared. One day he found a cow hanging in the low crotch of an alder tree, obviously beyond normal human capability, because the carcasses weighed 500 pounds and more. He apologized to his neighbor, and gave up trapping--having succeeded in capturing only one coyote. Sasquatch stories were unknown to him at the time, and no tracks were noted at the site. Of interest was the fact that none of the carcasses had been even partially eaten before they were found; however, the one carcass disappeared, and was never found. Other predators, even ravens, avoided the trap site.

When Sullivan and I were investigating the general area (about 100 square miles) in 1976, we were aware of 12 local Sasquatch reports. The area is occupied by small farms and woodlots, but is primarily a foothills range comprising second-growth Douglas fir timber, with a mix of alder and maple. Logging activity was in progress, and a maze of logging roads penetrated most of the area. Off-road travel into the forest, however, was extremely difficult due to dense stands of salal brush, salmonberry, thimbleberry, and devil's club. Of the 12 Sasquatch reports, five involved actual sightings of an animal, and seven were of tracks. The reports occurred between 1968 and 1976, and involved every month of the year except June and July. Track reports invariably followed a fresh snowfall.

Another case involving carrion came from Jack Woodruff, an investigator who lived in the Coast Ranges, on the east fork of the Coquille River, in Oregon. We visited him on January 4, 1975, and he allowed us to make copies of the Sasquatch footprint casts he had made along a river near his home. The story, as he related it, involved a large buck deer that had died from injuries following a collision with a vehicle. The deer had managed to stagger several yards up a skid road before it died. The carcass was reported missing several days later by a neighbor. On a later date, the neighbor had found the skeleton of a buck deer in the timber above the cut bank where the body had lain. Lack of drag marks indicated that it had been carried up the bank and into the timber. The skeleton of the deer, lying on its back, was intact, with all bones in place. The hair, scraped off the animal, was piled to one side. Woodruff recalled that a logger had once found an elk carcass in similar condition, also with the hair piled to one side of the skeleton. As far as I know, this type of observation regarding the handling of carrion by an unidentified animal has not been reported in print.

I investigated another case involving carrion on June 18, 1979. This incident involved a high school student near the town of Barriere, British Columbia, who told of shooting at a Sasquatch from a blind, at a distance of about 50 feet. There were some new elements in his story, which could be compared to prior reports.

A few days before the incident took place, he had happened upon a concealed, fresh deer carcass buried under forest litter. He stressed how well the carcass had been hidden, as the litter, which had been sprinkled over it, appeared to be identical to the natural terrain. He would not have noticed it, but he had been standing near it and had noticed part of a foot. Later, he visited the site again, and saw that some of the carcass had been eaten. He then built a blind about 50 feet away, intending to shoot a bear. He waited in the blind while two of his friends fished from a boat in a small lake in sight of the blind. The creature appeared at the site near 5 p.m. He aimed and fired at its head, and the animal went down on its knuckles, leaped up immediately, and ran off, extremely quickly, on two legs. His description was similar to that in other Sasquatch reports: 8 feet tall, 4-foot shoulders, forehead slanted back, bulky build, and black hair. The chest region was devoid of hair ("it appeared worn off'). This may sound suspicious to some investigators, but body hair can vary extensively among hominoids.

The witness suggested that I talk to his high school teacher, and to the two boys who had been fishing that day at the lake, so I contacted them later in the day. The teacher had a cast of a 16-inch footprint, which he had taken near the site. It was very wide across the toes (10 inches), and tapered to a relatively narrow heel, but still wider than a human heel. The boys believed that the deer had been killed at the lake edge because they had found deer hair there, and the carcass was wet. They stated debris covering the carcass had to be carried from somewhere. There was no evidence of material having been scratched up in the immediate vicinity.

At this point, it should be noted that local investigators who reacted to the report of this incident brushed it aside as a routine bear report (Oregon Journal, May 9, 1979). Although my interview with the boys and family members was 2 months later, there was no evidence to indicate that a bear was involved; the incident was either a hoax or had occurred and was witnessed as reported. My personal judgment was that the individuals involved were informative and sincere.

Although only a few footprints were located, these few lend support to the many hundreds of others reported over the decades in the Pacific Northwest. Other evidence indicates a large animal grubbing for food by ripping up rotten stumps and logs. Food items of interest would be roots, small rodents, and beetle grubs. Although this type of grubbing is a common activity for black bears, no claw marks were observed. The large logs split lengthwise appear to rule out bears as the perpetrators, as such animals would not have the necessary strength, and no claw marks were visible on the logs.

Other incidents investigated indicate carrion is a source of food, and may be the primary reason for the odor associated with Sasquatch sightings. The involvement of carrion suggests the possibility of these animals caching large carcasses for use during winter months, when food is scarce. Such a habit would be crucial to sustain animal the size of Sasquatch, estimated to stand 8 feet tall and to weigh as much as 800 pounds (Krantz 1986).

Reports of these animals consistently indicate they are present in wilderness areas. Since they are unique in their size and behavior, they should not be compared to humans or other primates.

Green (1978) cites several nocturnal sightings of Sasquatch, which suggests they may have night vision, an asset absent in known large primates.

After a decade of investigating Sasquatch evidence in the field, and after studying the writings and evidence presented by others, I can now report my own personal conclusions. First, the evidence indicates that a species of giant, bipedal primate, weighing up to 800 pounds and standing as tall as 8 feet, and known as Sasquatch, does, in fact, exist. Its diet is probably omnivorous, with feeding habits similar to those of bears (grubbing for roots, larvae, etc.). It searches for rodents in stumps, logs, and rock slides. It might cache meat for winter use. The offensive odor, which is sometimes reported in association with eyewitness sightings, could be, in part, from the eating and handling of putrid meat. The source could be carrion and animals caught and then cached.

These primates living in remote wilderness areas, may have night vision, and may be more active at night. They may have the ability to sleep through prolonged periods of adverse weather, although there is yet no evidence to support this hypothesis.

The only known enemy of Sasquatch is man, both directly and indirectly. Several reports of shootings have been published. The precise impact of man's activities upon its habitat is unknown, but wilderness areas are shrinking into smaller tracts each year due to road building, logging, and other forms of natural resource use. On the other hand, second-growth timber and other vegetative growth following logging of large tracts of land may benefit Sasquatch as a source of food and cover, as it has benefited many other wildlife species.

If the Sasquatch has survived in North America without official recognition, it has been because it is elusive and intelligent, more so than other mammals in the area, and more so than other living apes in Africa and Asia. Whether Sasquatch is a hominoid or hominid, such as a descendant of the PlioPleistocene genus Gigantopithecus (Krantz 1986) remains unresolved. For now, we have the frustrating situation of failure by most scientific authorities and official bodies to examine the evidence for this species--much less to acknowledge its existence.

The Sasquatch represents a scientific problem in need of a thorough study to bring it into the zoological perspective and dimension it deserves; recognition as an extant species, and consideration for its role in the ecosystems of the Pacific Northwest. Once its behavioral peculiarities--which so far have kept it from scientific discovery--are better understood, this species will be susceptible to scientific field study just as other animal species have been eventually studied in their own habitat.

References:
Byrne, Peter 1975 The Search for Bigfoot: Monster, Myth or Man? Washington, D.C. Acropolis Books.
Green, John 1978 Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us. Seattle: Hancock House.
Hunter, Don, with Rene Dahinden 1973 Sasquatch. Toronto: McClelland and Stewart.
Krantz, Grover S. 1986 A Species Named From Footprints. Northwest Anthropological Research Notes, Vol. 19(1): 93-99.
Markotic, Vladimir, and Grover S. Krantz (eds.) 1984 The Sasquatch and Other Unknown Hominoids. Calgary: Western Publishers.
Napier, John 1973 Bigfoot: The Yeti and Sasquatch in Myth and Reality. New York: E. P. Dutton. Sprague, Roderick, and Grover S. Krantz (eds.) 1979 The Scientist Looks at the Sasquatch II. Moscow, Idaho: University Press of Idaho.
- ---
© James A. Hewkin, Oregon 1983

Notes of interest:
Salal grows as medium-sized shrubs, 2-3 feet height in full sun but 5-10 feet in shade. They have large, leathery, dark green leaves on red stalks; the leaves often used as greenery in floral arrangements. Their pink, urn-shaped flowers give way to bluish-black berries the size of blueberries with a mild, pleasant taste. They are juicy, sweet and aromatic, and they made excellent wine source for early explorers. Grown profusely in the Pacific Coastal mountain ranges, the berries, which bloom late spring and summer are a favorite of wildlife such as bears, deer, elk, moose, mountain pika, squirrels and perhaps Bigfoot. Salal is related to wintergreen and creeping snowberries.

Oregon Grape grows profusely mostly in Southern Oregon and Northern California but
can be found elsewhere along the Pacific Coastal forests. The rhizomes or roots of the Oregon Grape is said to be beneficial for stomach ailments, aids digestion and also works as a antibiotic on intestinal problems. Early Native Americans used this root extensively. This plant doesn't produce its clustered berries until early autumn to late fall, is more seed that flesh; is acid and Black bears have been seen eating roots, bark and berries before hibernating.

Back to Biology, Scientific Papers and Field Reports
Back to What's New?
Back to Newspaper & Magazine Articles
Home/Main

Portions of this website are reprinted and sometimes edited to fit the standards of this website under the Fair Use Doctrine of International Copyright Law
as educational material without benefit of financial gain.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html
This proviso is applicable throughout the entire Bigfoot Encounters Website.
 
LAL said:
They do not have a listing because Sasquatches have not been collected and identified yet.


!BINGO!

LAL said:


A scientist with the Smithsonian concluded they exist. A scientist with the Museum of Natural History in New York has done the same (I've read he intends to look into it when he's finished with the Bili Ape project). Evidently scientists at Yerkes found the PGF to be authentic. What held back an investigation then? Couldn't have been ridicule from sceptics, could it?

No, probably not.

They are not on the list because they have not passed the vetting process for a new animal. Until they do--ipso facto they do not exist *in the way humans classify animals.* You can’t short circuit the process and that is what most Bigfoot enthusiasts apparently want to do. They might have some physical existence outside of human experience, new animals are found every year which previously were unknown to human experience.

Saying that “someone at the Smithsonian believes in them? So? I know some people at NASA who believe in aliens.

Also, implying that it’s the skeptics fault is understandable, but a little unfair. Skeptics do not conspire to keep information out (if they did I would call them pigs not skeptics.)

Ridicule never stopped a real researcher. If it did I would question if they actually were a researcher or just a crackpot. Ridicule is a good litmus test for the discovery of crackpots. People who don’t need to defend themselves are seldom defensive. If such creatures exist, no buffoon on the Internet will keep it secret. No sinister government agent will classify it, no stodgy academician in a tweed coat will keep the information from the public. Their photos will be on the front pages of your local newspaper, they will be the lead story on CNN.

The only thing keeping this from happening are the researchers themselves, because they cannot find convincing evidence. Which can be nothing short of ;
1) A specimen.
2) A really good series of photos or films which are impervious to nitpicking.

Accompanying this can be the usual gamut of specimens, tissue, fecal matter, hair, artifact(s) (if any.) But the latter can only support the former, you can’t prove the things exist without the good evidence.

There is a precedence to this. The Giant Squid is a good example. No one has ever photographed them. No one has seen one on the wild outside of tales from the time of whaling ships.

but we know they exist. How? We see scars on sperm whales. Body parts have been found in whale stomachs and, sometimes they have been brought up in nets. (IE) we indeed have specimens.

In answer to your question, that is what keeps Bigfoot out of the zoological record. It won’t be real until it’s real.
 
LAL, I notice you responded to me by posting an article. Though you quoted me back, you failed to even attempt to respond to my points.

Posting the article here doesn't change the random bozo equation whatsoever.
 
varwoche said:
LAL, I notice you responded to me by posting an article. Though you quoted me back, you failed to even attempt to respond to my points.

Posting the article here doesn't change the random bozo equation whatsoever.

I saved you the trouble of having to click to see if the article was wrth reading. You wanted the author's credentials? They're there.

Why should I respond to the points of someone who seems to think name-calling somehow forwards anything?
 
LAL said:
I saved you the trouble of having to click to see if the article was wrth reading. You wanted the author's credentials? They're there.
You aren't getting it. From my perspective, you are a random, anonymous bozo. Posting the article here does nothing to establish the expertise of the author, or even his existence.
Why should I respond to the points of someone who seems to think name-calling somehow forwards anything?
Please LAL, that is so inane it indicates you may not be reading my posts very carefully.

I expect you to consider me as a random, anonymous bozo unless and until I establish credibility with you. Otherwise you'd be a gullible fool. Accordingly, I wouldn't ask you to take my unsupported word, especially as pertaining to topics that contradict accepted scientific knowledge.

So, do you intend to provide any links that will help me authenticate the author's existence and expertise? If I am expected to take your (and the postman's) word, we are at an impasse.
 
The Odd Emperor said:
!BINGO!

They are not on the list because they have not passed the vetting process for a new animal. Until they do--ipso facto they do not exist *in the way humans classify animals.* You can’t short circuit the process and that is what most Bigfoot enthusiasts apparently want to do. They might have some physical existence outside of human experience, new animals are found every year which previously were unknown to human experience.

Saying that “someone at the Smithsonian believes in them? So? I know some people at NASA who believe in aliens.


I've mentioned Napier so many times, I didn't think it was necessary to name him again. He actually did some investigation.



Also, implying that it’s the skeptics fault is understandable, but a little unfair. Skeptics do not conspire to keep information out (if they did I would call them pigs not skeptics.)


I think the problem comes in where scepticism causes a lack of support and impedes what could be a serious effort.

Ridicule never stopped a real researcher. If it did I would question if they actually were a researcher or just a crackpot. Ridicule is a good litmus test for the discovery of crackpots. People who don’t need to defend themselves are seldom defensive. If such creatures exist, no buffoon on the Internet will keep it secret. No sinister government agent will classify it, no stodgy academician in a tweed coat will keep the information from the public. Their photos will be on the front pages of your local newspaper, they will be the lead story on CNN.


Not A Current Affair? Why didn't CNN do more than just call about the Nelson Creek sighting?

Neither Krantz nor Meldrum let ridicule deter them. Read something by them and see if they sound like crackpots. But I think many other scientists have been reluctant to take a stand for fear of being labelled "crackpots".


The only thing keeping this from happening is the researchers themselves, because they cannot find convincing evidence. Which can be nothing short of ;
1) A specimen.
2) A really good series of photos or films which are impervious to nitpicking.

Accompanying this can be the usual gamut of specimens, tissue, fecal matter, hair, artifact (if any.) Bu the latter can only support the former, you can’t prove the things exist without the good evidence.


Now, wait a minute. Several "researchers" spent a good part of their lives and all the money they could spare on the search. They did bring in evidence, just not a body. Patterson regretted not shooting the creature (deathbed "confession"). The BFRO does serious investigation but gets criticized for running expeditions for pay and selling T-shirts. Krantz did field work, went hunting and wrote on it and saw his career suffer (I hope Meldrum has better luck).
And it's their fault a body hasn't been brought in?

I noted with some amusement how sceptics on this thread called for a body but balked at the idea of killing one just to prove they exist.

The BFRO is, or was, looking for someone to fund the equipment needed to get those really good photos. They claim to have the expertice to locate a subject within a few days. So, in the absence of any full-scale scientific investigation, about all I can do is wish them, "Good luck!".

There is a precedence to this. The Giant Squid is a good example. No one has ever photographed them. No one has seen one on the wild outside of tales from the time of whaling ships.

but we know they exist. How? We see scars of sperm whales. Body parts have been found in whale stomachs and, sometimes they have been brought up in nets. (IE) we have specimens.

In answer to your question, that is what keeps Bigfoot out of the zoological record. It won’t be real until it’s real.

Well, they probably don't care whether we think they're real or not as they go about doing Sasquatchery things in the deep forests. Maybe one will walk into a NW sawmill and we'll get that body part.

In the meantime, we have about everything up to that body or body part. Perhaps it won't be too much longer before there is enough to get them a classification.
 
varwoche said:
You aren't getting it. From my perspective, you are a random, anonymous bozo. Posting the article here does nothing to establish the expertise of the author, or even his existence. Please LAL, that is so inane it indicates you may not be reading my posts very carefully.

I expect you to consider me as a random, anonymous bozo unless and until I establish credibility with you. Otherwise you'd be a gullible fool. Accordingly, I wouldn't ask you to take my unsupported word, especially as pertaining to topics that contradict accepted scientific knowledge.

"Accepted scientific knowlege" changes frequently in light of new evidence.
I don't think there is any "accepted scientific knowlege" on this. Got citations?


So, do you intend to provide any links that will help me authenticate the author's existence and expertise? If I am expected to take your (and the postman's) word, we are at an impasse.

The postmaster did not write the article. The credentials are in the copyrighted article. You'll have to take the author's word on who the author is. You'll note I used another website to post it. It's the same article. I don't have a problem assuming Jim Hewkin wrote it and it's as he wrote it. Unfortunately, he wasn't famous enough for an Internet bio. I can provide those on quite a few others, though.
I'm grateful to Thomas for taking the time and trouble to build the site. It's one of the best, IMO, especially the audio and video page. The other two are the BFRO's and Bobbie Short's Bigfoot Encounters.

I'm trying to see this from the perspective of one who knows nothing about this, but who may have seen a cover story in Weekly World News.

An impasse is fine by me, but if you'd actually like to learn something, I can point you to some resources.
 
Bigfoot Hoaxer

I was searching for Jane Goodall and JREF after watching the "When Animals Talk" show on Animal Planet, and I somehow found this thread. Usually I prefer to lurk, but I used to know a Bigfoot hoaxer and decided to post a little anecdotal information on him.

I shall call him Tim. He was not a scholar, but he may have fooled a few. The skills required for his bit of fun appear to have been picked up in construction and taxidermy. Tim's father built houses and his uncle ran a taxidermy business out of a garage. Tim became proficient with the stilts as a taper for his father. He spent many hours working with drywall on those long fake legs. Also, Tim stated he picked up knowledge on animal feet working for his uncle; however, he never divulged the exact workings of his little charade.

My contact with Tim outside of work in construction mostly involved a great deal of alcohol, and he would tell some tall tales. Maybe he was lying to me, but he insisted that he pulled off hoaxes from northern Florida to Georgia. One tale he told me involved creating tracks in his uncle's yard the night after they had replaced their septic tank. His uncle was even fooled and called over hunting friends to look for the animal.

It's been over 20 years since I have spoken with Tim, but I thought someone might find his existence interesting. Also, after watching the "When Animals Talk" show, I would have have to say that it would be prudent to remain highly skeptical of any current musings from Jane Goodall. The scientific rigor of that show was at the very low end, yet she was willing to pitch it.
 
Hm. The Arunachal macaque didn't come up on the Smithsononian site either, under common or scientific names, Odd (may I call you that?), but here it is:

"Named the Arunachal macaque, the new monkey is a comparatively large brown primate with a relatively short tail.

The scientists say they are surprised to have found a hitherto unknown large mammal in such a populous country."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4101001.stm

I guess not being listed on the Smithsonian's mammals list isn't evidence a mammal doesn't exist, huh?

They were out-of-date on the human family tree, too, last time I checked.
 
Re: Bigfoot Hoaxer

mailbox1282000 said:
I was searching for Jane Goodall and JREF after watching the "When Animals Talk" show on Animal Planet, and I somehow found this thread. Usually I prefer to lurk, but I used to know a Bigfoot hoaxer and decided to post a little anecdotal information on him.

I shall call him Tim. He was not a scholar, but he may have fooled a few. The skills required for his bit of fun appear to have been picked up in construction and taxidermy. Tim's father built houses and his uncle ran a taxidermy business out of a garage. Tim became proficient with the stilts as a taper for his father. He spent many hours working with drywall on those long fake legs. Also, Tim stated he picked up knowledge on animal feet working for his uncle; however, he never divulged the exact workings of his little charade.

My contact with Tim outside of work in construction mostly involved a great deal of alcohol, and he would tell some tall tales. Maybe he was lying to me, but he insisted that he pulled off hoaxes from northern Florida to Georgia. One tale he told me involved creating tracks in his uncle's yard the night after they had replaced their septic tank. His uncle was even fooled and called over hunting friends to look for the animal.

It's been over 20 years since I have spoken with Tim, but I thought someone might find his existence interesting. Also, after watching the "When Animals Talk" show, I would have have to say that it would be prudent to remain highly skeptical of any current musings from Jane Goodall. The scientific rigor of that show was at the very low end, yet she was willing to pitch it.

Oh, good grief. Goodall's years of work go down the tubes and she is no longer credible because she pitched a TV show you didn't approve of?

Was Tim in Manitoba April 16th this year?

When I have time, I'll post something on detecting fakes.
 
Re: Re: Bigfoot Hoaxer

LAL said:
Oh, good grief. Goodall's years of work go down the tubes and she is no longer credible because she pitched a TV show you didn't approve of?

Oh good grief. Where did anyone say that Goodall's previous work was discredited ..

Any work that she does in the future, and presents for review, will surely be judged on it's own merits by the scientific community.


Like you, a TV show is trying to give credibility to their woo, by attaching the name and ( mostly out of context ) appearance of a respected researcher to it.
 
LAL said:


Now, wait a minute. Several "researchers" spent a good part of their lives and all the money they could spare on the search. They did bring in evidence, just not a body. Patterson regretted not shooting the creature (deathbed "confession"). The BFRO does serious investigation but gets criticized for running expeditions for pay and selling T-shirts. Krantz did field work, went hunting and wrote on it and saw his career suffer (I hope Meldrum has better luck).
And it's their fault a body hasn't been brought in?

I noted with some amusement how sceptics on this thread called for a body but balked at the idea of killing one just to prove they exist.

[/B]

I can’t speak for “skeptics,” They are after all, individuals and not some monolithic force. I can speak for myself though. I believe shooting one is not really necessary (other than with a camera.) A dead specimen would put the issue to rest but a live one or some good photos would do just as well.

Otherwise, it really doesn’t matter. The day that Bigfoot transforms from a splendid mystery into to a big stinky ape running around the North American woods is not going to change my life significantly.

LAL said:


The BFRO is, or was, looking for someone to fund the equipment needed to get those really good photos. They claim to have the expertice to locate a subject within a few days. So, in the absence of any full-scale scientific investigation, about all I can do is wish them, "Good luck!".

[/B]

Me too. I’m willing to bet that they can take the best cameras money can buy, or the cheapest Wal-Mart piece of junk and still get nothing but inconclusive, blurry photos. Want to give me odds that I’m wrong?

LAL said:


Maybe one will walk into a NW sawmill and we'll get that body part.

[/B]

(yuck o)


LAL said:


In the meantime, we have about everything up to that body or body part. Perhaps it won't be too much longer before there is enough to get them a classification. [/B]

I hope not.

Stuff like this though? It tends to drag on for generations. Everyone thinks they have the answer, everyone thinks the Bigfoot’s over the next hill and the aliens are just about to land.

It never seems to happen.
 
I think Diogenes understands the situation with "When Animals Talk". I will try to create a thread in the TV Entertainment section.

I do not know where Tim is. My best guess is that he is living in Dixie and would be unlikely to travel outside of it to perpetuate a hoax.
 
mailbox1282000 said:
I think Diogenes understands the situation with "When Animals Talk". I will try to create a thread in the TV Entertainment section.

Mailbox, ( or do you prefer Mr 1282000 ? )

I trust you caught this thread

Jane Goodall Ambushed on Animal Planet
It was a two hour program, with regularly interspersed interviews and appearences with Jane Goodall, but much of it was clearly produced and narrated without her input.
LAL Has been dropping Dr. Goodall's name quite often, based on statements to the effect of " Bigfoot/Sasquatch et al ,merits further investigation "..


This translates as " being polite " , rather than just saying " I don't have time for this.. "..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom