Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[The Shrike]

One person in particular observed this creature for over 3 hours - more exactly the creature was observing him. I find it hard to believe that, in this case, the person is hallucinating or mis-identifying. A person's conviction is hard to argue face-to-face.

Why do you find that hard to believe? To illustrate with just one example, imagine all of the people in the U.S. who've ever had a spouse or lover cheat on them. At some point, every one of those people was told a lie, face-to-face, by their closest confidante. There are tens of millions of people in this sad fraternity . . .

Believe half of what you see; none of what you hear.

 

[ScannerHead]

Here it is 2011 and people are still talking about Bigfoot like it exists.

So
Damn
Absurd
Totally
Ridiculous

It's a mistake to think that Bigfoot exists.

Cotter, you are JREF's newest Bigfoot believer?

What is the obsession at THIS particular internet board with OTHER people who believe in or want to believe in something different than everyone else?

What's all the fake concern here?

 

[William Parcher]

What's all the fake concern here?

What is your obsession? Skeptics? LoL ... no they aren't.


LOL.

 

[William Parcher]

Tell WP nope, not in this case. Look how sharp the outline is. And the tracks look deep enough to capture the edges even tho they were rounded. But the clincher are the toes. How much of the big & little toes got captured? All of em, IMO.

Dude, you can see that the Wallace Alderfoot stomper doesn't fully impress into the substrate in this image (with ruler). The double ball almost doesn't even show up. This is mostly because the bottom of the stomper is rounded. Also because the substrate is probably a thin layer of soft fine dirt on top of hard pack. On the other side of the foot, the full outer curvature isn't fully impressed either.

The important thing is... if Green measured the width of one of these partially impressed tracks it might be narrower than the full width of the Wallace stomper. It should be easy to understand why.

 

[Cotter]

Here it is 2011 and people are still talking about Bigfoot like it exists.

So
Damn
Absurd
Totally
Ridiculous

It's a mistake to think that Bigfoot exists.

Cotter, you are JREF's newest Bigfoot believer?

Hi WP,

Wouldn't paint in such black and white as declaring myself as a 'believer', but I am not 100% a non-believer either. Right now, I find it hard to believe that anyone can say with no doubt that a large North American ape does not exist. However, when speaking with someone of sound mind that claims to have observed one, it raises some decent questions.

I'm late to this party, so I've got a lot more reading to do to catch up. But from what I've read so far, I'm not convinced the folks that don't believe have put up good enough of an arguement. (it goes without saying where the believers stand with the evidence/proof).

There's a difference between probably and possibly.

I look forward to on-going discussions not only about this, but many other things.

What really sparked my interest a fews years back, then rekindled it again recently were 2 things. The Bili Ape discovery (jury's out as far as I can tell, but it was a 6+ foot ground nesting chimp - sub species some scientists are suggesting). It showed me that, in today's modern world, large apes can and do still roam that are rarely seen or studied.

OOPS ETA - The second being the 125k apes (Lowland Gorillas) that were discovered (of an already known species, but it over doubled the estimated global population of the apes)

It's incidents like that that show me how much territory is truly out there.

 

[Óðinn]

I was talking about this alleged track/stomper match. I didn't mean in general. It would depend on the ground conditions for each track.

But I agree that these tracks could be slightly narrower than the stompers since the dirt looks pretty shallow for some of the tracks. But the apparent depth can also be deceiving in a 2D photo.

I see where the double ball imprint begins in your "heel crack" print. It looks a little short on the left but good on the right, imo. The shape looks relatively consistent for that stomper, for that print anyway..and of course the crack.

Some of the other prints are better defined, but those photos are useless for measuring the track width anyway. We can't guess how foreshortened the prints are in those photos (except in the direction of the ruler only). There must be some foreshortening unless the photos were taken directly overhead, which I doubt they were. Judging from the curve of the toes, the images could be seriously distorted. Only physical measurements will do.

 

[Cotter]

Why do you find that hard to believe? To illustrate with just one example, imagine all of the people in the U.S. who've ever had a spouse or lover cheat on them. At some point, every one of those people was told a lie, face-to-face, by their closest confidante. There are tens of millions of people in this sad fraternity . . .

Believe half of what you see; none of what you hear.

I agree that people lie, but usually it is for gain of some sort.

There are members of an honest fraternity as well. As well as members of the fraternity that have been lied to.

It's a tough line to draw, no doubt.

 

[Kilaak Kommander]

I agree that people lie, but usually it is for gain of some sort.

The desire for attention is motive enough.

Just curious, but these people who told you about their encounters... what was the context? Why did they talk to you about that subject in particular, rather than their kid's soccer team or the weather or whatnot?

 

[Cotter]

The desire for attention is motive enough.

Just curious, but these people who told you about their encounters... what was the context? Why did they talk to you about that subject in particular, rather than their kid's soccer team or the weather or whatnot?

I agree Kilaak that some people crave enough attention that they'll say anything to be the center of attention (excellent question btw). But I can't say with any certainty that claims of such nature are driven by this, or anything for that matter.

First account - My mining partner and I currently have a claim in the Pacific NW, pretty far out in the sticks as well. He had been doing this for a while back in the 80's and 90's and for circumstances out of his control, had to take a break. When we were planning for our first exploration in this new area, we were discussing needed defense when we were out in the backcountry as humans aren't necessarily on the top of the food chain in the wild. The whole conversation started with "I don't want you to think I'm crazy, but there's something else we may have to contend with......"

Second account - During my second exploration in the area, we were taking an evening off for some decent food and libations, we got a space at a local campground. After meeting the 'neighbors', conversation around the campfire turned to the woods, and the legend of BF in the area. After a few minutes of discussion, one of the 'neighbors' offered an account they experienced of seeing a large ape-like creature running across a field on 2 legs - faster than seemed real at the time, cross the road in front of them, him and the passengers of the car were basically besides themselves as to what they had just seen. When they approached the area where the thing crossed the road, they experienced the "BF Stench" so many eye-witnesses describe.

Third account - My gf works in the newspaper business, when doing a story on an Indian Reservation, she spoke with a tribal leader and noticed a map on the wall with a bunch of marks on it. This leader kept a map of all of the sightings on the reservation for 20+ years. She mentioned this back at her workplace and one of the older ladies (50+) came into her office and told her of a story of her and her daughter driving down a mountain road in a snow storm - going about 20 mph and seeing a large black creature cross the road in front of them walking upright, it stopped in the ditch to look back at the vehicle. They stopped the car and observed it for several seconds before it went back in the brush. They looked at each other and basically realized that no one would believe what they saw, and continued driving.

Fourth account - A friend of mine spent 8 years in the Pacific NW (Northern CA) & had a small vegetable farm in the hills. One summer night he heard what he thought were the lions screaming in the hills, but something didn't sound right, he went outside and could hear several places where screams, whoops, and loud banging were coming from the woods around his place. He said in a split second it all stopped, then an earthquake hit.

Now, of course I've no evidence of anything, and am not speculating that these incidents are indeed a BF, but my point here is not to prove any of these encounters actually happened, but merely saying that I, personally, find it peculiar that these seemingly well-rounded folks would make up stories of such a nature for attention.

Again I'll bring up the difference between possibility and probability and can anyone definitely say the probability is zero.

I don't think the nay-sayers will EVER be able to prove, without a doubt, that BF (large NA primate) doesn't exist. The burden is on the believers, with only 1 solution to the arguement - find, document, and provide a BF to the public. Until then, the romance of the potential will always be there, makes for some interesting discussions and internet searching to say the least.

Thx

 

[GT/CS]

<snip>
Second account - <snip> After a few minutes of discussion, one of the 'neighbors' offered an account they experienced of seeing a large ape-like creature running across a field on 2 legs - faster than seemed real at the time, cross the road in front of them, him and the passengers of the car were basically besides themselves as to what they had just seen. When they approached the area where the thing crossed the road, they experienced the "BF Stench" so many eye-witnesses describe.

<snip>

Thx

This super-fast bigfoot stuff has always bothered me.

Do you really think a 9' tall 600# ape can run amazingly fast on 2 legs? It is totally absurd.

My guess is someone in the car told a modified version of the Memorial Day event and someone else in the car had the brilliant idea to say they saw a similar thing. Imagine driving through the woods with a few friends and you should be able to see how such a 'story' could develop.

 

[davefoc]

Cotter,
Do you have a thought about what kind of stories there would be about bigfoot if bigfoot didn't exist? How do you think the kind of stories that you posted are different from the stories that people tell about all kinds of non-existent phenomena?

I know this stuff is discussed in great detail in the bigfoot threads around here and clearly there are people that come by and post to the contrary but the objective fact about bigfoot is that there is zero credible evidence of its existence and the available information supports the conclusion that it is wildly unlikely that one does exist.

 

[Cotter]

Cotter,
Do you have a thought about what kind of stories there would be about bigfoot if bigfoot didn't exist? How do you think the kind of stories that you posted are different from the stories that people tell about all kinds of non-existent phenomena?

I know this stuff is discussed in great detail in the bigfoot threads around here and clearly there are people that come by and post to the contrary but the objective fact about bigfoot is that there is zero credible evidence of its existence and the available information supports the conclusion that it is wildly unlikely that one does exist.

Hi Dave:

I cannot disagree with anything you wrote. However, I don't have any recollections of friends/acquaintances telling stories of how they were abducted, saw unicorns, vampires, leprechaun's etc etc.

Also, one thing that I will bring up is the term 'credible evidence'. No matter what evidence is/has been provided on BF, credibility will always be called into play and there will NEVER be any credible evidence until a body is produced.

 

[William Parcher]

I was talking about this alleged track/stomper match. I didn't mean in general. It would depend on the ground conditions for each track.

But I agree that these tracks could be slightly narrower than the stompers since the dirt looks pretty shallow for some of the tracks. But the apparent depth can also be deceiving in a 2D photo.

I see where the double ball imprint begins in your "heel crack" print. It looks a little short on the left but good on the right, imo. The shape looks relatively consistent for that stomper, for that print anyway..and of course the crack.

Some of the other prints are better defined, but those photos are useless for measuring the track width anyway. We can't guess how foreshortened the prints are in those photos (except in the direction of the ruler only). There must be some foreshortening unless the photos were taken directly overhead, which I doubt they were. Judging from the curve of the toes, the images could be seriously distorted. Only physical measurements will do.

The only way to prove that the stomper matches the track is to MEASURE their dimensions, not with photo comparisons.

The LMS excerpts alluded to the tracks being too narrow to match the wooden Wallace feet....

Meldrum/Green contend that the BCM tracks were too narrow to be Wallace stompers, because apparently no stompers have been brought forward that fit the width of the tracks.

In order for Meldrum/Green to properly claim that the Wallace stompers are too narrow they would need to measure the actual stompers. That is what you are saying. But you make no noises about calling for Meldrum/Green to back up their position with data. You know there are people on BFF with regular contact with these two guys. Why aren't you calling for the support data from those guys? Why are you instead bashing kitakaze around telling him what he needs to do to discredit Meldrum/Green? Isn't it initially important to establish the credibility of M/G before prompting any discrediting exercise? Why don't you do that instead?

It looks as if you are afraid to apply critically skeptical demands upon the famous Bigfoot supporters and believers and instead only use it to whack at Bigfoot skeptics.

 

[davefoc]

Hi Dave:

I cannot disagree with anything you wrote. However, I don't have any recollections of friends/acquaintances telling stories of how they were abducted, saw unicorns, vampires, leprechaun's etc etc.

Also, one thing that I will bring up is the term 'credible evidence'. No matter what evidence is/has been provided on BF, credibility will always be called into play and there will NEVER be any credible evidence until a body is produced.

Hi Cotter,
Thanks for the response. I appreciated your comments.

I think the implication in your post that the meaning of 'credible evidence' is in the eye of the beholder and that is certainly true. Personally there is a range of evidence that I would see as credible short of body parts. However the evidence that I've seen put forth for bigfoot looks like the routine noise that surrounds any one of these kind of stories to me.

 

[William Parcher]

I cannot disagree with anything you wrote. However, I don't have any recollections of friends/acquaintances telling stories of how they were abducted, saw unicorns, vampires, leprechaun's etc etc.

Why would anyone want to tell a story that is virtually guaranteed not to be believed? Or one in which they are virtually guaranteed to suddenly be regarded as mentally ill?

This is the thing. Bigfoot stories get told because there are people who seem to believe them. You are a classic example. The people who told those stories might be highly selective about who they tell them to. Only tell them to a certain kind of person, or in a particular context, so that it maximizes the believability.

Now, of course I've no evidence of anything, and am not speculating that these incidents are indeed a BF, but my point here is not to prove any of these encounters actually happened, but merely saying that I, personally, find it peculiar that these seemingly well-rounded folks would make up stories of such a nature for attention.

I see this often among Bigfoot believers and their supporters. I think it is a strawman construct to imply that "well-rounded folks" do not engage in folklore or folktale telling. The unstated suggestion is that only folks who are really badly screwed-up in the head would do such a thing. And that you can spot such a person from a mile away anyway.

It is entirely unnecessary for a Bigfoot skeptic to provide a perfectly accurate reason for why any given person would tell a fictitious story about Bigfoot. Suggestions are given (for money, for attention, for fun, etc) but it doesn't matter if the reasons seem to not fit the situation. The only thing that matters is that people do tell stories that they know are false (or they know are almost certainly false), and that those people can actually be "good", "well-rounded", "credible", and "honest" people in spite of this.

 

[GT/CS]

By all accounts Ray Wallace was a seemingly well-rounded person and we all know what he did.

 

[Drewbot]

I can whole-heartedly understand there are mis-identifications and people 'seeing what they want to see'. However, has anyone had the opportunity to sit and talk with someone that has a prolonged encounter?

I've met 3 people in my life that have claimed to see a large bi-pedal ape-like creature in the USA. One person in particular observed this creature for over 3 hours - more exactly the creature was observing him. I find it hard to believe that, in this case, the person is hallucinating or mis-identifying. A person's conviction is hard to argue face-to-face.

Also, in 2005, the Bali ape was 'discovered' (I may have missed this discussion). But perhaps a BF hangup here is that people may assume it's some new species. Could be a current species that has adapted. A solution that would make both camps correct in their assertations of the existence. (IMO).

xxx.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1015856-1,00.html

Cotter, I think that you, yourself, have driven the stake in the idea that a GIANT HAIRY UPRIGHT BEAST can remain unclassified in the U.S..

If three people in your circle of friends have seen a Bigfoot, then the beast should have been found by now. It is really that simple.


Re: The Bili Ape
What does the presence of an ape in Africa, have to do with an upright hairy beast from the PNW?

 

[ScannerHead]

This super-fast bigfoot stuff has always bothered me.

Do you really think a 9' tall 600# ape can run amazingly fast on 2 legs? It is totally absurd.

My guess is someone in the car told a modified version of the Memorial Day event and someone else in the car had the brilliant idea to say they saw a similar thing. Imagine driving through the woods with a few friends and you should be able to see how such a 'story' could develop.

Oddly, he never said it was 9 foot tall or how much it weighed... yet you denounce all sightings of this type by creating a false arguement about the size an animal "must have been" while no such thing was stated.

 

[GT/CS]

Oddly, he never said it was 9 foot tall or how much it weighed... yet you denounce all sightings of this type by creating a false arguement about the size an animal "must have been" while no such thing was stated.

What's your point?

 

[William Parcher]

I think that this is the correct orientation for this photograph. We can see that the ball area is only very slightly impressed. We'd never even know it was a double-ball if we didn't already know that.

Of course an imprint like this will measure to be narrower than the stomper itself. Because the full curvature of the ball is just not there.