Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Wouldn't paint in such black and white as declaring myself as a 'believer', but I am not 100% a non-believer either. Right now, I find it hard to believe that anyone can say with no doubt that a large North American ape does not exist.

It sounds like you're describing yourself as a fence-sitter. Speaking as a former fence-sitter, I can say that it does involve at least a small degree of belief.

I'm late to this party, so I've got a lot more reading to do to catch up. But from what I've read so far, I'm not convinced the folks that don't believe have put up good enough of an arguement.

Trust me, you have a lot of stuff left to read. But since we're on the subject, is there anything in particular that you would like to see addressed?

What really sparked my interest a fews years back, then rekindled it again recently were 2 things. The Bili Ape discovery (jury's out as far as I can tell, but it was a 6+ foot ground nesting chimp - sub species some scientists are suggesting). It showed me that, in today's modern world, large apes can and do still roam that are rarely seen or studied.

OOPS ETA - The second being the 125k apes (Lowland Gorillas) that were discovered (of an already known species, but it over doubled the estimated global population of the apes)

Seeing as how Africa is rife with civil wars, those apes being previously unaccounted for is not much of a surprise. However, there are no such conflicts in North America that would effect explorations of our forests.

You mentioned that your friend claimed to have observed one for 3 hours. All that time and he could not obtain any corroborating evidence? No fur, film or video? That said, it's also possible that he misidentified another person or a bear. You might want to check out this informative thread about confirmed cases of eyewitnesses being wrong.

After a few minutes of discussion, one of the 'neighbors' offered an account they experienced of seeing a large ape-like creature running across a field on 2 legs - faster than seemed real at the time, cross the road in front of them, him and the passengers of the car were basically besides themselves as to what they had just seen. When they approached the area where the thing crossed the road, they experienced the "BF Stench" so many eye-witnesses describe.

That reminds me of a hoax from page 64 of Bigfoot: the life and times of a legend by Joshua Blu Buhs. It's amazing how a boy dressed in a toque and a Navy blue turtleneck could create sightings of a giant creature running at superhuman speed. The report of a stench also reminds me of this hoax.

She mentioned this back at her workplace and one of the older ladies (50+) came into her office and told her of a story of her and her daughter driving down a mountain road in a snow storm - going about 20 mph and seeing a large black creature cross the road in front of them walking upright, it stopped in the ditch to look back at the vehicle. They stopped the car and observed it for several seconds before it went back in the brush. They looked at each other and basically realized that no one would believe what they saw, and continued driving.

Could be a misidentification. Bears can walk on their hind legs, after all.

One summer night he heard what he thought were the lions screaming in the hills, but something didn't sound right, he went outside and could hear several places where screams, whoops, and loud banging were coming from the woods around his place. He said in a split second it all stopped, then an earthquake hit.

Animals can produce an incredibly variety of noises, so something not "soun[ding] right" is a pretty poor way of thinking that a normal animal didn't produce it. Sounds like the coming of the earthquake riled up a variety of animals and their scared behavior produced a variety of sounds.

 

[William Parcher]

I'm not sure if Bigfooters are prepared for an art film on Bigfoot. From the Sundance Film Festival 2011... Letters from the Big Man (movie trailer).


Sundance listing.

In the breathtaking, remote wilderness of southwestern Oregon, Sarah Smith, a hydrologist, embarks on an expedition to conduct a government water survey. An intrepid outdoors woman, Sarah craves a solo journey so she can reconnect with herself and nature. Venturing deep into the forest, she intuits another presence. Gradually, the elusive figure reveals himself to be a Sasquatch, and the two interact tentatively. As their bond intensifies, Sarah finds she must take bold steps to protect the Big Man's privacy, as well as her own.

You can almost sense the rustling of trees and fresh air as Munch reverently explores the possibility of communicating directly with the ineffable mysteries in nature, fashioning a powerful metaphysical love story with resonance for our times.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Meet Hodgson SquareToes...

Priceless William, thanks.

Too much fun!

 

[The Shrike]

Sundance listing.

If Sarah was tripping merrily through the woods in those running tights, I'd be more than tentative in my interactions with her. Grrrr!

 

[William Parcher]

Reprehensible and dishonest of THC to misrepresent the facts to skew skepticism and encourage belief. As GT has noted, it's all in pursuit of the Almighty Advertising Dollar.

History Channel, you should be ashamed of yourself.

It's hard to know where to point fingers, if they sould even be pointed at all. The producers of this program are Dangerous (Films) Company. They have done some very good documentaries.

Many people would say that The History Channel (and The Discovery Channel) suck because the programs are loose with factuality and often cater to woo or fringe beliefs.

But we can't even know if the decision-makers at THC themselves believe in Bigfoot or even the same for the folks at Dangerous. All of them could be strong skeptics (think that Bigfoot does not exist). But public popularity and intrigue is on programs that promote or set the stage for belief.

I wish I could read the credits at the end of this program. I'm interested in knowing who provided the various materials - particularly the PGF stuff.

 

[LTC8K6]

A 9 foot tall 6 foot wide 800 pound stinky ape and she has to intuit his presence...

 

[William Parcher]

It's probably that "feeling of being watched" which so many Bigfoot eyewitness claimants mention before they see it.

 

[Cotter]

My understanding is that as soon as somebody went looking for this "Bili Ape" they got proper evidence. Completely unlike the situation with Bigfoot.

="xxx://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0414_030314_strangeape.html"]This article was before they were thoroughly identified...




Can you see the big difference, Cotter?

First, I stand corrected on not finding bones, appears skull were indeed found.

I do see the differences you pointed out William.

However, I feel there are add'l differences as well. First, these researchers used locals to help them locate the apes. I don't believe we have 3rd world communities living in the PNW where searchers can use their trackers and guides to navigate the wilderness.

Second, reports of nests, fur samples, and dung samples have supposedly been found and studied, but we fall back into the 'credibility of the researcher' again.

Also, in the article, there was mention of a year-long study. To the best of my knowledge, there are no groups out there with any sort of government funding searching for BF. The folks studying the Bili Ape were not weekend amatuer researchers. There certainly is a difference in resources between the two.

There's a lot to chew on, I appreciate the comments.

 

[Cotter]

Cotter
How many of your circle of friends have seen a mountain lion, badger, wolverine, red fox, marmot, blue grouse, green sea turtle, humpback whale, triggerfish, sea lion, woodcock, woodchuck, armadillo, or a boar in the wild? Get the idea?

Well, I see the point of your question Parnassus (well maybe not if the question is loaded), however, I will offer the following response:

I myself have seen a mountain lion, red fox, marmot, woodcock, woodchuck, and wild boar in the wild. Something that comes from spending time in the backcountry and hunting in the appropriate areas.

When I was a kid, there was a big ruckus in area b/c a wolverine was harassing some local sheep. I'm sure I could dig into it and put some more animals on the list of folks that have spotted other animals as well.

 

[Cotter]

It sounds like you're describing yourself as a fence-sitter. Speaking as a former fence-sitter, I can say that it does involve at least a small degree of belief.



Trust me, you have a lot of stuff left to read. But since we're on the subject, is there anything in particular that you would like to see addressed?



Seeing as how Africa is rife with civil wars, those apes being previously unaccounted for is not much of a surprise. However, there are no such conflicts in North America that would effect explorations of our forests.

You mentioned that your friend claimed to have observed one for 3 hours. All that time and he could not obtain any corroborating evidence? No fur, film or video? That said, it's also possible that he misidentified another person or a bear. You might want to check out .... thisinformative thread about confirmed cases of eyewitnesses being wrong.



That reminds me of a hoax from page 64 of Bigfoot: the life and times of a legend by Joshua Blu Buhs. It's amazing how a boy dressed in a toque and a Navy blue turtleneck could create sightings of a giant creature running at superhuman speed. The report of a stench also reminds me of ....this hoax.



Could be a misidentification. Bears can walk on their hind legs, after all.



Animals can produce an incredibly variety of noises, so something not "soun[ding] right" is a pretty poor way of thinking that a normal animal didn't produce it. Sounds like the coming of the earthquake riled up a variety of animals and their scared behavior produced a variety of sounds.

Dang - all you folks got me on my toes, I appreciate the responses, helps me sort it all out.

Hi atomic - thx for the response, trust me, I know I got a long ways to go to get caught up!

Also, yeah, there is some part of me that wants to believe, it's an interesting subject matter that I find entertaining, and just imagine the implications if one these beasts WERE indeed found!

First, to address your question about my pal that allegedly observed one for 3 hours. His intentions in the back country were not to be out looking for BF or gathering evidence. It was unrelated. No camera or recording equipment was with him, just a shotgun and a pickup truck. As far as gathering fur/hair. I never actually asked him outright about this, but I'm not certain that, after the incident, his first thought was to start looking for evidence. That's about the best I can explain that. What I do know is that it was seated, watching him from behind a rock, and at one point it got up and walked away. His observation was at approx 50 feet. (FWIW).

Oh, to comment on the statement that there are no civil wars to hamper exploration, I agree. However, I think the scale of exploration for BF is but a fraction of that which was put forth for the Bili Ape and other such operations(see previous post). I can't recall any large scale BF search that took place in the PNW. Those that have searched are considered to be uncredible. Kind of a rock and a hard place there.

Your other comments I cannot disagree with you on. Those all are plausible (even probable??) explanations of the incidents. However, and maybe I'm falling victim to suggestive reasoning, they do fall in line with other BF incidents.

Of all the incidents, if 1 was real, we'd be in business.

 

[The Shrike]

I don't believe we have 3rd world communities living in the PNW where searchers can use their trackers and guides to navigate the wilderness.

Back in the day, trappers and frontiersmen worked with "Indian" guides to help them find all sorts of cool stuff in the North American wilderness, yet for the millions of beaver pelts they brought back there has never been so much a bigfoot fingernail clipping.

Second, reports of nests, fur samples, and dung samples have supposedly been found and studied, but we fall back into the 'credibility of the researcher' again.

A lot of this material, often collected by "amateur" researchers, has been submitted and analyzed by legitimate research institutions. The result? Nothing that points unambiguously to an undescribed large mammal of any kind - let alone "bigfoot" - in North America.

There certainly is a difference in resources between the two.

Maybe, but just because their study involved a full year of field work doesn't mean it took them a full year to collect that first piece of confirmatory evidence. For all we know, they might have found the first skull during their first few days in the field, and invested the rest of year actually following the chimps and making behavioral observations.

There are a lot of people actively seeking bigfoot in the field, there have been some well-funded expeditions, some people have been looking for decades, and bigfoot is by no means restricted to the most remote wilderness areas.

 

[Cotter]

One last thing before I get back to work.

One of the popular comeback from BF'ers is that there is a government cover-up. Has this been discussed? If so, I can dig, if not...well....the responses I get is that the US gov doesn't WANT BF to be discovered b/c of the ramifactions not only to the Church, but also to resources - meaning an endangered species habitat would need to be protected, thus restrictions on mining, foresting, drilling, etc would cost a lot of affluent folks a lot of money. Now, please don't ask me to provide any evidence at all of this, I'd have better luck getting you guys a BF. But it is indeed retort to the 'why no bodies' question. The gov hid Area 51 from the general population for a very long time, and that thing didn't move at all and was out in the open.

 

[GT/CS]

First, I stand corrected on not finding bones, appears skull were indeed found.

I do see the differences you pointed out William.

However, I feel there are add'l differences as well. First, these researchers used locals to help them locate the apes. I don't believe we have 3rd world communities living in the PNW where searchers can use their trackers and guides to navigate the wilderness.

Second, reports of nests, fur samples, and dung samples have supposedly been found and studied, but we fall back into the 'credibility of the researcher' again.

Also, in the article, there was mention of a year-long study. To the best of my knowledge, there are no groups out there with any sort of government funding searching for BF. The folks studying the Bili Ape were not weekend amatuer researchers. There certainly is a difference in resources between the two.

There's a lot to chew on, I appreciate the comments.

I grew up in the PNW and it is crawling with hikers, hunters, campers, ATVers, mountain bikers, loggers, and all sorts of other folks, so we have all the trackers and guides we need. If there were any bigfoots in those forests we'd know about it.

I also find it interesting that Jeff Meldrum is now searching in other countries for bigfoot. He'd been fairly well compensated to search in the U.S. for many years and he found diddly-squat.

 

[GT/CS]

One last thing before I get back to work.

One of the popular comeback from BF'ers is that there is a government cover-up. Has this been discussed? If so, I can dig, if not...well....the responses I get is that the US gov doesn't WANT BF to be discovered b/c of the ramifactions not only to the Church, but also to resources - meaning an endangered species habitat would need to be protected, thus restrictions on mining, foresting, drilling, etc would cost a lot of affluent folks a lot of money. Now, please don't ask me to provide any evidence at all of this, I'd have better luck getting you guys a BF. But it is indeed retort to the 'why no bodies' question. The gov hid Area 51 from the general population for a very long time, and that thing didn't move at all and was out in the open.

You probably won't find much of a discussion on this side of the tracks and will need to go over to the loony side, to the Conspiracy Forums, for that discussion. Most of us don't consider it worth our time, pretty much like the subject of bigfoot being paranormal.

 

[William Parcher]

First, I stand corrected on not finding bones, appears skull were indeed found.

Twice! And in quantities! First in 1908 and then in 1996. We could have had more skulls at any point after 1908 if anybody would have wanted them. Go to Bili and find Bili Ape skulls. Any amateur with desire could have done it.

But wait... what is this about skulls? Meldrum and other Bigfoot believers constantly inform us that (wet) forests do not yield bone remains nor fossils. The climate and creatures are supposed to eliminate this stuff. But golly gosh... the African rain forest yielded Bili Ape skulls on at least two occasions.

Why has nobody found any Bigfoot skull in over 400 years of people being in North American forests of all kinds?


Imagine if...

The detective story began in 1908 when a Belgian army officer returned home with several gorilla skulls from near the town of Bili on the Uele River and gave them to the Belgium's Royal Museum for Central Africa in Tervuren.

was instead...

The detective story began in 1908 when a logger returned home with several Bigfoot skulls from near the town of Willow Creek, California in the Bluff Creek watershed and gave them to the Smithsonian Institute.

 

[The Shrike]

government cover-up.

Even if we could concoct some reason why the U.S. government would choose to cover up knowledge of bigfoots, there are some important logical gaps to the bigfoot conspiracy ravings.

For one, "bigfoot" is supposed to also occur in Canada, Russia, China, India, Indonesia, Australia, etc. If there's a bigfoot cover up, then it's the best example of disparate governments working together toward a common goal - ever.

Just keeping the discussion domestic, let's say the "gov't" did know about bigfoot and want to keep it secret. How could they do it? I mean, let's say some guy in Arkansas or Florida or Washington or British Columbia hits one with his truck while driving home from work tonight. He takes a few photos from on his camera phone and posts them to Facebook. Boom - bigfoot goes viral before Uncle Sam knows anything about it.

 

[William Parcher]

Also, yeah, there is some part of me that wants to believe, it's an interesting subject matter that I find entertaining, and just imagine the implications if one these beasts WERE indeed found!

...that there is a government cover-up...

...But it is indeed retort to the 'why no bodies' question. The gov hid Area 51 from the general population for a very long time, and that thing didn't move at all and was out in the open.

With all due respects, you may have the kind of personality and ways of thinking that are primed for Bigfoot belief. The way that you used the Bili Ape thing and continue to appeal to it along with readiness to accept govt conspiracy... combined with romantic "want to believe".... this is a recipe for a Bigfooter. You aren't using critical thinking and skepticism. It may not be in your nature.

Let me ask you a question: Almost right away you used the Bili Ape "example". Where did you get that from? It was inaccurately slanted in a way that would promote Bigfoot belief if you heard it and didn't know the full truths. Did your friends the Bigfoot witnesses tell you about the Bili? Did you find it on your own after hearing their tales? Or what?

 

[LTC8K6]

The US Govt did not hide Area 51. It hid what was going on there, and it still does.

Area 51 was never hidden and it still isn't.

 

[The Shrike]

Area 51 was never hidden and it still isn't.

Right, and unlike the distribution of bigfoot (variously described as somewhere between continent-wide and the PNW) you can put a fence and armed guard around it to control access.

 

[RayG]

It's probably that "feeling of being watched" which so many Bigfoot eyewitness claimants mention before they see it without ever seeing anything.

He'd been fairly well compensated to search in the U.S. for many years and he found diddly-squatch.

There, fixed those for ya.

The gov hid Area 51 from the general population for a very long time, and that thing didn't move at all and was out in the open.

Not so much hid as restricted access, which is as it should be. Johnny Q. Public doesn't have the proper security clearance to see the stuff going on there, like the development and testing of the SR-71 Blackbird, for example.

RayG