Being bullied

[slingblade]

Not that you need it slingblade, but I respect your decision. I hope the next job is better.

Thank you, but I must say one thing: there's nothing wrong with this job. A single incident doesn't a hellhole make.

 

[pgwenthold]

I agree. It takes a huge amount of courage to go to work every day with a psycho boss. Unrealistic expectations and inconsistent reactions make for a very daunting workplace.

Consider my situation of the scary nun who bullied me in 2nd grade. Now, in the end the way she got canned was because my younger neighbor, 2 years after I went through, was so scared to go to school (after hearing about the beast from older neighbors) that she cried uncontrollably every morning, For a while, her parents would drag her to school, but finally realized that there was something serious going on. Ultimately, they ran the beast out of town. And I am thankful all the time to their daughter (who was a good friend) for making it happen.

But I don't know that I would characterize "crying uncontrollably every morning" as more courageous than those of us who plucked up and just accepted it. Then again, I don't care which is more courageous, because it's not about courage or the lack of it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Consider my situation of the scary nun who bullied me in 2nd grade.

Second graders have no way to balance the risks and rewards of confronting such a situation. Especially when one of the risks is eternal damnation. That is just not a fair fight.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Thank you, but I must say one thing: there's nothing wrong with this job. A single incident doesn't a hellhole make.

Good to hear.

A single incident of someone losing their crap can actually make a boring job more interesting. I used to enjoy sitting near customer service because every now and then a true nutjob would call in and I could go listen. It was tangentially related to my job, but really I just liked the CS folks and they knew I got a kick out of the crap they had to wade through sometimes.

 

[pgwenthold]

Second graders have no way to balance the risks and rewards of confronting such a situation. Especially when one of the risks is eternal damnation. That is just not a fair fight.

That's why I considered it so evil. We were only 8 years old, for pete's sake!!!! What were we going to do?

Miss Oscar ended up having the solution, and it took terrifying the bejeepers out of her.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I have described how I was bullied by a guy three years older and much larger than me because I had silver buck teeth.

I would have loved for UncaYimmy to pay for the dental work to have prevented that.

<snip>
How DARE anyone suggest it was my fault.

I don't know you. I don't give a **** about you. I never said anything directly to you. I never implied anything about you. What are you blathering on about?

Interestingly, I have detected another common feature among the victims in this thread: They don't listen. I have repeated about a dozen times that there are certainly situations where fighting back is the wrong or even impossible path to take. And yet here are you claiming the opposite.

Why do you do that? Are you, like the others, sensing strength in numbers and going after me personally because you were unable to defend yourselves as children? The studies I cited said that victims quite often become bullies themselves. Is this just another example? Does it feel good?

 

[TraneWreck]

Interestingly, I have detected another common feature among the victims in this thread: They don't listen. I have repeated about a dozen times that there are certainly situations where fighting back is the wrong or even impossible path to take. And yet here are you claiming the opposite.

And you're able to distinguish these cases how?

When is a victim "behaving like a victim" and when are the bullies picking people for no reason at all?

I just need to know when it's best to close my eyes and think of England and when I should I go Ubermensch.

 

[slingblade]

I think he's gone past the trowel or the shovel and is using a backhoe now. I hope he's put up cones.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I agree. It takes a huge amount of courage to go to work every day with a psycho boss. Unrealistic expectations and inconsistent reactions make for a very daunting workplace.

That was the situation I was in about 12 years ago. It was the only job I ever worked where the quality of work I did had zero correlation to the boss's reactions. I was completely at the mercy of his mood swings and tantrums.

He was convinced from the beginning that I was a crappy worker, and for a while he was able to get me to live up to his expectations by witholding the training and other valuable information I needed to do my job. Anything I tried to do, he threw up roadblocks.

Nevertheless, I was able to overcome all this and become good at my job. It took me a while to realize that my efforts to appease him this way were misguided. It only made him angrier: He had decreed that I was incompetent, and I had no right to prove him wrong.

I've thought a lot about how I could have handled that situation differently, and keep coming to the same conclusion: I should have gotten out as soon as I realized what an unreasonable tyrant he was. Sticking with it for as long as I did only served to crush my self-esteem and confidence further. You can't reason with people like that, and you can't fight back. They are far too ruthless and too good at protecting themselves from being exposed as the cockroaches they are.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I will admit, I was an easy target and didn't stand up for myself well. But to tell an awkward, shy kid to stand up for themself -- I don't know, the only analogy I can think of is telling someone with insomnia to just go to sleep. It sounds so easy when it comes naturally.

Well, according to some people here, you're wrong about being an easy target. According to them it could just as easily been anybody else, and it was random chance that you were singled out for years. However, I happen to think you're correct that there were aspects of your personality that meshed with aspects of other personalities that encouraged and prolonged the dance.

That said, I have not argued that it's simply a matter of telling somebody something. I have referred to it as teaching skills to people. Telling is not the same as teaching. Not everyone learns at the same pace or is even capable of mastering a skill. And in some situations, the skills won't work. It takes a concerted effort.

I'm not going to get into specifics because everything is a situation, and I'll hear a dozen arguments about how it wouldn't work or how you couldn't have possibly done that or any of a dozen other excuses. It's pointless, really.

I just hope if you're ever in a situation to assist a young version of yourself that you don't hang her out to dry but actually try to find some way to make the situation better.

I don't have any easy answers about any of it. But blaming someone after the fact, and attacking them as weak because they had a painful time growing up, is definitely not the answer.

Who is blaming anyone? Certainly not me. Self examination to see how one's conduct might have affected the situation is not blame. I happen to believe that "know thyself" is pretty damned good advice. To suggest to others that they simply look inward is not an attack. I will say that reacting as if it is an attack may be a symptom of seeing oneself as a victim. If you want to call that an attack, there's nothing I can do about it either. IT is what it is.

 

[Uncayimmy]

And you're able to distinguish these cases how?

What does that have to do with what I said? The fact is that you and others have claimed for me positions I do not hold and have denied. That's what bullies do.

When is a victim "behaving like a victim" and when are the bullies picking people for no reason at all?

I just need to know when it's best to close my eyes and think of England and when I should I go Ubermensch.

I'll consider answering your questions when you stop behaving like an angry child who thinks that blustering and name-calling is proper behavior.

 

[TraneWreck]

What does that have to do with what I said? The fact is that you and others have claimed for me positions I do not hold and have denied. That's what bullies do.

You said, "I have repeated about a dozen times that there are certainly situations where fighting back is the wrong or even impossible path to take."

You then berated a forum member for acting like a victim. Setting aside your complete lack of knowledge concerning that specific situation, you have failed to even hint at general criteria for making such distinctions.

If you want to sustain all these claims about "standing up to bullies" and "behaving like a victim" you need to provide some story about what all of this stuff means.

Somehow you KNOW the afore mentioned situation merited one of your patented confrontations, how did you know that?

I'll consider answering your questions when you stop behaving like an angry child who thinks that blustering and name-calling is proper behavior.

Haha, "Angry child" is not name-calling? Or do you mean that you get to call me names, but not vice versa?

Call me what you want, it doesn't bother me. Hey, maybe that's just my alpha male confidence shining through...

 

[Uncayimmy]

That's not a course of action, it's a course of inaction. Courage can be used to induce action but so can anger, frustration, etc.

And some people rationalize their inaction as courage. How many stories have we heard about bosses who were bullies but people "braved" it every day to feed their families. Where's the rest of the story? You know, the part where they say, "It affected me emotionally, so I wasn't as good a parent/spouse that I should have been. Because I and my family deserve better, I sought out other employment. I even took a job for less money and found other ways to support my family." I'd call that brave.

But taking it for years and talking about how your self-esteem was damaged in the process? Sorry, not seeing the courage in that.

When a bully moves on to another victim it is only a matter of time before they return to you. You are relying on chance to intervene in the mean time to protect you. Each time it gets harder to act because you have conditioned yourself to take the abuse.

Yep.

Bullies at work are very difficult because they have usually risen throught the ranks with no problems before being put into a position of power. When you bring up their behaviour to superiors the reaction is often "Really? Them? They aren't like that!"

Yep. So when you don't say anything at all to the person doing the bullying and instead go up the chain to complain, what happens? If the boss does nothing, then the bully is even more encouraged: no resistance anywhere. Woo hoo!

 

[Uncayimmy]

Haha, "Angry child" is not name-calling?

No, it's not. I said you were behaving like an angry child. I did not call you an angry child. Can you see the difference?

When you calm down, let me know.

 

[quixotecoyote]

No, it's not. I said you were behaving like an angry child. I did not call you an angry child. Can you see the difference?

When you calm down, let me know.

Stop behaving like a dishonest halfwit.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Which takes more courage: showing up to work every day knowing that your supervisor might harass you but realizing you and your family need the job?

Risking nothing does not require courage.

Or losing your ****, having an argument, getting fired, leading to you sitting at home unemployed?

Again with the false dichotomies. Since when is losing your temper part of the equation? That's never a good strategy. But I would say standing up for yourself and risking your livelihood requires courage.

And yes yes, now you'll offer all sorts of advice like, "pull the supervisor aside and let them know you didn't appreciate the way you were talked to...blah, blah." You don't know the situation. I've seen people fired for much less. Only the people in that situation will have a sense for what will lead to firing or continued harassment.

The cliche, psuedo-psych advice givers on this thread speak in such generalities and have such little knowledge about the specific circumstances in question. Yet they truly believe their Dr. Laura-esque suggestions are sufficient to dub someone a coward if they aren't followed.

Neither qayak nor myself have used the word coward. You're making that up along with all the other arguments you dutifully construct for people other than yourself, then attempt to shoot down.

I think your language demonstrates just how judgmental you are. Not only do you call myself and qayak names, but you call victims names like cowards, then pretend that we said it, not you. It's just a bunch of bullying tactics to silence opinions with which you now claim to disagree with (see below).

What's really funny is that you are engaging in behaviors similar to what qayak and I have suggested. Rather than sit idly by and accept perceived insults, you are standing up. You should look inside yourself to wonder why you see insults where none are intended and are explicitly denied. You're also projecting, which is why you talk about people losing their temper. Apparently you lack the ability to calmly and rationally discuss the issue. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing. Bravo!

Were you a bully or a victim as a child? You've been called a bully before here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5963856#post5963856

You claim here you weren't bulled. In fact you stated that being good at sports gave you a "free pass." Interesting how when it serves your purpose, you say that aspects of the victim play a part. Were you an Ubermensch like me?

Hell, even in this thread you said, "I've noticed a lot of people ended bullying and improved their lives by standing up to the bullies. Generally that's sound advice." And yet you're riding my ass for saying the same thing. I wonder why that is? To be fair, you said that in some cases there's nothing the victim can do. Funny thing is, so have I. Multiple times in fact.

I'll leave you with some wise words I once read. You should look at yourself when you read them.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5909253#post5909253
...the detached aspect of the internet that several folks brought up creates a new dynamic to bullying. I knew a family with a teenage daughter. She was bullied by former friends over the internet and what struck me about her situation was that these girls, who would never dream of being that cruel in person, were just vicious online.

 

[slingblade]

Well, and never mind the fact that I've not only NOT asked for any advice, I don't need any. I've handled it. It's over. We're only discussing it here as a point of example.

What someone's uncle is doing is...well, he needs the exercise, I'm guessing. ;D

 

[soylent]

I was never really bullied; nothing persistent, just minor scuffles and a bit of teasing if I did something sufficiently dumb or unorthodox once in a blue moon.

It is a very good thing I was never bullied, not just for my own sake, but because I'm the sort of person who can be extremely vindictive if intentionally and repeatedly physically provoked in a setting where I can't just ignore you and go on with my life.

The situation would have rapidly escalated into something insane. It's not that I'm unusually violent or anything. It's more like if you had griefed me enough already and decide it'd be funny to put a tack on my chair and the teacher refuses to do anything substantive about it, I'd slink away during the gym class next week and pour butyric acid into your schampoo or something.

If you then escalate further I'm going to end up trying to super glue a bowler hat to your scalp or something.

 

[TraneWreck]

Risking nothing does not require courage.

There is quite a bit at stake when one suffers indignity to achieve a more important goal.

Again with the false dichotomies. Since when is losing your temper part of the equation? That's never a good strategy. But I would say standing up for yourself and risking your livelihood requires courage.

Anticipated and dealt with in advance, yet...

Neither qayak nor myself have used the word coward. You're making that up along with all the other arguments you dutifully construct for people other than yourself, then attempt to shoot down.

I enjoy how stupid you think we all are. What is the word for someone lacking in courage?

I think your language demonstrates just how judgmental you are. Not only do you call myself and qayak names, but you call victims names like cowards, then pretend that we said it, not you. It's just a bunch of bullying tactics to silence opinions with which you now claim to disagree with (see below).

No, I responded to you insulting members of this forum. You can weasel all you want, but the whole thing was obvious. I already went through and quoted your nonsense, so there's no reason to do it again. Either you're astonishingly dense or you realize what a jerk you were being and are now trying to distance yourself from your past comments.

What's really funny is that you are engaging in behaviors similar to what qayak and I have suggested. Rather than sit idly by and accept perceived insults, you are standing up. You should look inside yourself to wonder why you see insults where none are intended and are explicitly denied. You're also projecting, which is why you talk about people losing their temper. Apparently you lack the ability to calmly and rationally discuss the issue. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing. Bravo!

Amazing that I'm "bullying" on this forum when 1) you can respond just like I can, 2) you can ignore me, and 3) you're the Ubermensch. I thought your very presence kept bullies at bay.

Were you a bully or a victim as a child? You've been called a bully before here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5963856#post5963856

You would have to read the thread to notice that I wasn't called a bully. The entire group of people defending global warming science was thusly slurred. But I fell proud to have made such an impression on you that you're going through my past posts.

You claim here you weren't bulled. In fact you stated that being good at sports gave you a "free pass." Interesting how when it serves your purpose, you say that aspects of the victim play a part. Were you an Ubermensch like me?

In my particular circumstance, athletic ability kept the bullies away. I was left alone.

Other people on the forum have the exact opposite story. They were good at sports, this led to jealously, and then bullying.

I realize that my characteristics coupled with my circumstances saved me from many of the problems that members have had. I also have the humility to understand this wasn't just because I possess natural "alpha male tendencies." There are many places in the world I likely would have been bullied.

Hell, even in this thread you said, "I've noticed a lot of people ended bullying and improved their lives by standing up to the bullies. Generally that's sound advice." And yet you're riding my ass for saying the same thing. I wonder why that is? To be fair, you said that in some cases there's nothing the victim can do. Funny thing is, so have I. Multiple times in fact.

Yes, all you have to do is read the thread to notice that.

What I didn't do was tell specific people in specific circumstances that they should do X. I don't know why fighting back works sometimes, and other times it doesn't. Thus, I don't pass judgment on the behavior of others in circumstances that I don't understand.

The same cannot be said of you.

I'll leave you with some wise words I once read. You should look at yourself when you read them.

Where is the cruelty in my posting? I know nothing about you, save what you post here, and I can only reply to such. In what I can only assume was an attempt to be provocative, you launched several extremely long tirades about your "inability to understand the victim mentality."

You still haven't described what that was, but you clearly ridiculed all the people sharing negative experiences on this thread and went into great detail about how your awesomeness put you beyond that.

If you can't see how poorly developed and insensitive your argument is, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[qayak]

Please, this is a childish definition of "courage."

Really? Well, I have a very adult dictionary, let's see what it says.

Courage - 1) the power or quality of dealing with or facing danger, fear, pain, etc. 2) the courage of one's convictions. the confidence to act in accordance with one's beliefs.

I would say doing nothing and just taking it are definitely NOT covered under the adult definition.

Which takes more courage: showing up to work every day knowing that your supervisor might harass you but realizing you and your family need the job?

Or losing your ****, having an argument, getting fired, leading to you sitting at home unemployed?

Why do you need to lose your ****? Nowhere did I say that. What I did in fact say, way back at the beginning of this thread was that one should remain calm when dealing with bullies. Should the situation turn to violence, one still needs to remain calm.

And yes yes, now you'll offer all sorts of advice like, "pull the supervisor aside and let them know you didn't appreciate the way you were talked to...blah, blah." You don't know the situation. I've seen people fired for much less. Only the people in that situation will have a sense for what will lead to firing or continued harassment.

Then is it really a job you want to keep?

Throughout this discussion I have stated flat out that you might get dismissed when you act on the situation. However, the alternative is that you may actually correct the situation with action.

If you decide to do nothing, why would you complain about the situation anymore? It is something you have accepted as what you are willing to live with to collect your paycheque.

The cliche, psuedo-psych advice givers on this thread speak in such generalities and have such little knowledge about the specific circumstances in question. Yet they truly believe their Dr. Laura-esque suggestions are sufficient to dub someone a coward if they aren't followed.

Oh, you mean like all the advice you have been giving?

I didn't see anyone call anyone a coward. I certainly didn't. I just disagreed with what they felt a courageous action was. Even if their action wasn't courageous that doesn't mean it was automatically cowardly as you seem to think.