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Being bullied

There is quite a bit at stake when one suffers indignity to achieve a more important goal.
Such as?

I enjoy how stupid you think we all are. What is the word for someone lacking in courage?
Normal.

No, I responded to you insulting members of this forum. You can weasel all you want, but the whole thing was obvious. I already went through and quoted your nonsense, so there's no reason to do it again. Either you're astonishingly dense or you realize what a jerk you were being and are now trying to distance yourself from your past comments.
The false dichotomy store called and wanted to know if you needed an extra delivery this week.

In my particular circumstance, athletic ability kept the bullies away. I was left alone.
Impossible.

I realize that my characteristics coupled with my circumstances saved me from many of the problems that members have had.
Impossible.

What I didn't do was tell specific people in specific circumstances that they should do X.
Neither did I. I asked after the fact why they didn't take certain actions. Had I actually received an answer, I might have then given specific advice for a future situation. Since I did not get any answers, I did not make any specific recommendations to any specific people. That's your invention.

You still haven't described what that was, but you clearly ridiculed all the people sharing negative experiences on this thread and went into great detail about how your awesomeness put you beyond that.
So you keep telling me. You're actually quite skilled at telling other people what they think. During that process you have demonstrated ill temper, name calling, hypocrisy and dishonesty.

Are you done now?
 
:rolleyes: Really? Well, I have a very adult dictionary, let's see what it says.

Courage - 1) the power or quality of dealing with or facing danger, fear, pain, etc. 2) the courage of one's convictions. the confidence to act in accordance with one's beliefs.

I would say doing nothing and just taking it are definitely NOT covered under the adult definition.

I enjoy self-refuting posts.

The first definition covers endurance under harassment nicely. Facing pain. That says it all.

Why do you need to lose your ****? Nowhere did I say that. What I did in fact say, way back at the beginning of this thread was that one should remain calm when dealing with bullies. Should the situation turn to violence, one still needs to remain calm.

Haha, what?

The only question is what would have lead to a firing. Simple back-talk may have been enough. Confrontation often leads to dismissal. You don't know any of the specifics, so you're just making general claims out of pure ignorance.

:rolleyes: Then is it really a job you want to keep?

Hmm, 10% unemployment. "Wanting" might not have anything to do with it.

Throughout this discussion I have stated flat out that you might get dismissed when you act on the situation. However, the alternative is that you may actually correct the situation with action.

If you decide to do nothing, why would you complain about the situation anymore? It is something you have accepted as what you are willing to live with to collect your paycheque.

Because the victim's behavior is completely irrelevant to whether the abuser was a jerk or not. You can complain about jerks whether you challenge them, run away, or endure. Whatever path you take, you can still complain about the jerk.

That's actually the one thing we know for certain. WHo knows what course of action will stop the bullying, but the simplest solution is for the bully to stop bullying.

Oh, you mean like all the advice you have been giving? :rolleyes:

What advice have I given anyone?

I didn't see anyone call anyone a coward. I certainly didn't. I just disagreed with what they felt a courageous action was. Even if their action wasn't courageous that doesn't mean it was automatically cowardly as you seem to think.

Again, this is such a silly argument. You spent all your time defining courage in a way to specifically exclude the behavior of a member of this forum.

HEY, FUN IDEA, let's play the dictionary game:

Coward: "a person who lacks courage..."

http://www.yourdictionary.com/coward

Some people understand what words mean, sorry.
 

Seriously? Uh, how about dignity?


Hmm, yet one definition of a coward is, "someone lacking courage."

How could I ever come to the conclusion that you were calling someone you laboriously described as lacking courage was a coward?

The false dichotomy store called and wanted to know if you needed an extra delivery this week.

Man, stores haven't called me since 1993. I guess everything old and tired eventually returns.

Impossible.

Impossible.

Huh?

Neither did I. I asked after the fact why they didn't take certain actions. Had I actually received an answer, I might have then given specific advice for a future situation. Since I did not get any answers, I did not make any specific recommendations to any specific people. That's your invention.

Look, this is getting stupid. I'm done after this post, you're welcome to the last word.

You have gone into unnecessary detail about your life holding it up as an exemplar of how to avoid bullies. You also spend time explaining why certain people on this thread lack courage, are cowards. Then you say stuff like:

There's a difference between "drawing it to you" and "being a target that will take it." I think you are clearly the latter. Your response was to take it and then to go to a higher authority - classic victim behavior. Your "meta message" is, "you're not allowed to yell at me like that because the boss says you're not" when in my opinion it should be, "I don't give a damn who you think you are, but you are not going to address me like that."

So you're not, in any way what-so-ever, suggesting that people exhibiting "classic victim behavior" stop doing so?

Everyone here is capable of interpreting this none-to-subtle implication. It's arrogance and ignorance, the Romulus and Remus of your silly argument.

So you keep telling me. You're actually quite skilled at telling other people what they think. During that process you have demonstrated ill temper, name calling, hypocrisy and dishonesty.

HOW DARE I read and understand your comments!!!

Are you done now?

Yes, actually I am. This is just boring now. The audience is yours, Mark Antony.
 
I enjoy self-refuting posts.

The first definition covers endurance under harassment nicely. Facing pain. That says it all.

By your way of thinking, a person who freezes under fire is the real hero in a battle. :rolleyes:

Haha, what?

The only question is what would have lead to a firing. Simple back-talk may have been enough. Confrontation often leads to dismissal. You don't know any of the specifics, so you're just making general claims out of pure ignorance.

But YOU, of course, are the person in the know! :rolleyes:

No one is disputing that one might be dismissed if they act. Of course, inaction can also lead to dismissal. Your reasoning is just chock full of fallacies.

Hmm, 10% unemployment. "Wanting" might not have anything to do with it.

Well then, it is the price the person is willing to pay so technically it isn't bullying anymore, it's a condition of their work environment.

Because the victim's behavior is completely irrelevant to whether the abuser was a jerk or not. You can complain about jerks whether you challenge them, run away, or endure. Whatever path you take, you can still complain about the jerk.

The "victim's" (I hate to use that word but you seem to insist) behaviour is completely relevent. Bullying is a behaviour and it is dependant on the behaviours of others in the social group. You seem to live in some fantasy world where bullies are a complete anomoly. I have news for you, they exist everywhere. If you don't learn how to handle them you can expect to be a victim your whole live. I simply choose not to be a victim.

Notice how it is the people who didn't deal with the bullying that are asking what they should do?

That's actually the one thing we know for certain. WHo knows what course of action will stop the bullying, but the simplest solution is for the bully to stop bullying.

:rolleyes: What dream world do you live in? Haven't you read the research? Bullying is an offshoot of power and status. That's why your "simple solution" doesn't work. It's based on ignorance.

I wish date rape never happened and I know it is wrong and 100% the fault of the perpetrator BUT I still recognize that it does happen in the real world and taught my daughters how to avoid it.

You haven't helped one iota by stating the obvious that bullying is wrong.

Again, this is such a silly argument. You spent all your time defining courage in a way to specifically exclude the behavior of a member of this forum.

:rolleyes: No, . . . remember . . . D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y?

Certainly easy to be courageous in your world. A person doesn't even have to do anything and they are the epitome of courage. Sure makes all those medal of bravery winners idiots doesn't it?

Oh, no, it doesn't because you live in a fantasy world not reality.
 
How could I ever come to the conclusion that you were calling someone you laboriously described as lacking courage was a coward?

You are being disingenuous. No one said that. It was simply stated that A SINGLE CASE of inaction of an individual was not a courageous act. That does not make the person a coward and it doesn't make that one action cowardly.
 
The "victim's" (I hate to use that word but you seem to insist) behaviour is completely relevent. Bullying is a behaviour and it is dependant on the behaviours of others in the social group. You seem to live in some fantasy world where bullies are a complete anomoly. I have news for you, they exist everywhere. If you don't learn how to handle them you can expect to be a victim your whole live. I simply choose not to be a victim.

No it is not "dependent" on others. There are so many different reasons why children become bullies - they're acting out, their own place in the social hierarchy is reliant on providing "entertainment" to their pack, they feel superior, etc.

Regardless of the why, bullies are lacking in empathy. In high school, add the natural arrogance of the teen and you've got behavior that gently borders on sociopathic. A lot of bullying is casual, impersonal. They cast around until they get a response.

Telling a targeted child in this situation that there is some rational way to deal with it useless. The reason they get bullied is because they are dealing with situation normally - they ignore taunting, they walk away from conflict, they involve someone in authority.

And then the situation gets worse. Where it was casual harassment, it's now personal. The bully feels that he has every right to act that way, any indication that he might be wrong is met with an immediate and disproportionately harsh response. The situation escalates.

Many people, and especially children, are not equipped to deal with someone who does not see them as a human being. If you are capable of empathy, it is difficult to understand someone who lacks it.
 
By your way of thinking, a person who freezes under fire is the real hero in a battle. :rolleyes:

This is a silly, circular premise. The entire argument about what actions are "courageous" involve the motivations. Someone who took a couple of hits of heroin then rushed into battle shooting wildly wouldn't be courageous because no decision was made, agency didn't exist.

But you've given the motivation of the person in your example as "freezing." I presume you mean, not acting because they were paralyzed with fear. Of course that's cowardly.

If, however, the inaction is a conscious decision based on a balancing of benefits and consequences, it can be highly courageous. No one would call Ghandi or King cowards for not fighting back.

But YOU, of course, are the person in the know! :rolleyes:

I've said time and time again that I don't know, and neither do you. What is your point here?

Well then, it is the price the person is willing to pay so technically it isn't bullying anymore, it's a condition of their work environment.

Pure hogwash. Bullying isn't defined by the choices of the victim. It's defined by the behavior of the aggressor.

Notice how it is the people who didn't deal with the bullying that are asking what they should do?

You live in a fantasy world constructed of you own arrogance. You are not beyond bullying, you're simply lucky to live within a social structure that protects you, as am I.

The moment you set foot in a prison, for example, none of your amazing personal characteristics would save you from what was to come.

:rolleyes: What dream world do you live in? Haven't you read the research? Bullying is an offshoot of power and status. That's why your "simple solution" doesn't work. It's based on ignorance.

[...]

You haven't helped one iota by stating the obvious that bullying is wrong.

You seem to have confused "practical solution" with "simple solution."

:rolleyes: No, . . . remember . . . D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y?

Yes, and both the definition of "courage" and "coward" explicitly contradicted your silly claims.

Certainly easy to be courageous in your world. A person doesn't even have to do anything and they are the epitome of courage. Sure makes all those medal of bravery winners idiots doesn't it?

Oh, no, it doesn't because you live in a fantasy world not reality.

Yet you're the one with the magic solution to bullying. Perhaps you could write a book that helped people self-actualize and overcome bullies by simply changing their outlook on life. I'm sure Oprah would gobble up that nonsense.
 
You are being disingenuous. No one said that. It was simply stated that A SINGLE CASE of inaction of an individual was not a courageous act. That does not make the person a coward and it doesn't make that one action cowardly.

Hmm, so the dictionary says that a "coward" is "someone who lacks courage."

But an action lacking in courage is not cowardly. Interesting.
 
Seriously? Uh, how about dignity?
Dignity: bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.

How interesting that you would say it's "at risk" when you allow someone to yell at you without standing up for yourself. This could be very interesting to explore further. On the topic at hand, I was referring to risking something tangible rather than perception by others.

Hmm, yet one definition of a coward is, "someone lacking courage."
Please do not snip definitions without an ellipsis. It shows intellectual dishonesty.

Coward
Noun: a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

Adjective: lacking courage; very fearful or timid. proceeding from or expressive of fear or timidity

Let's recap how we got here. Helen, I believe, claimed that it took extreme courage to quietly accept being yelled at. I and qayak argue that this doesn't take courage. You then accuse us of calling people cowards. When I say that the absence of courage does not equal cowardice, you then give an incomplete definition of coward in an effort to somehow "trap" me into having to admit I called someone a coward.

Here's a clue. I have no problems calling someone a coward. I think your behavior here would be vastly different should you have to face any consequences beyond this anonymous forum. Only the MA prevents me from phrasing it another way, but I believe you get the drift.

You have gone into unnecessary detail about your life holding it up as an exemplar of how to avoid bullies. You also spend time explaining why certain people on this thread lack courage, are cowards. Then you say stuff like:
More hypocrisy and straw men. If I share what I did, I am "giving advice" and telling people that my way is the only way. When others share their stories, they are just examples to discuss. You have shared your own stories as well. As for the cowards thing, well, that's just you making up arguments for other people. Again.

So you're not, in any way what-so-ever, suggesting that people exhibiting "classic victim behavior" stop doing so?
I described my opinion of her behavior, and I stand by it. I even used the phrase my opinion. I did not tell her that she should have done anything differently nor did I tell her what she should do in the future. Considering she didn't answer any of my questions, I didn't know enough to offer advice, and she certainly didn't ask for advice. What I did do was give what I believe is an interpretation of the events that she and others reading this thread didn't see. Did you forget that this is a discussion forum where there are usually many more readers than posters? What I did was typical of a discussion. Too bad you had to get all worked up about it.

Everyone here is capable of interpreting this none-to-subtle implication. It's arrogance and ignorance, the Romulus and Remus of your silly argument.
My arrogance is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Either I'm right or I'm wrong. If arrogance pisses you off so much, you should take a break or find another outlet because it's easy to perceive arrogance in the written word where none exists. However, in my case, I am most definitely arrogant. I'm also abrasive. There's the Ignore feature if you don't like me and the Report button should I break the rules. Other than that, it's really not a topic for discussion.

BTW, why is it acceptable for you to directly insult me personally but it's a travesty for me to (allegedly) subtly imply insults to a group while contributing to a discussion? The hypocrisy you demonstrate is astounding, but it least it demonstrates your point about bullying behavior on the Internet.

Yes, actually I am. This is just boring now. The audience is yours, Mark Antony.
It was boring before. Your tirades made it interesting.
 
Hmm, so the dictionary says that a "coward" is "someone who lacks courage."
Again with the partial quoting. The dictionary also says that a lawyer is "an interpreter."

But an action lacking in courage is not cowardly. Interesting.
I just farted. It did not take any courage. Does that make farting a cowardly act? Am I now a coward? Enough with the false dichotomies.
 
Hmm, so the dictionary says that a "coward" is "someone who lacks courage."

But an action lacking in courage is not cowardly. Interesting.

That is hard for you comprehend? It is quite common for an action to lack either courage or cowardice. I got out of my chair. No courage or cowardice there.
 
Did it "not take any courage" or was it "lacking in courage"?

Why do you ask? The term "lacking" was introduced by Tranewreck. The term coward was introduced by Aggle-rithm and repeated by Tranewreck.

Here's how it went:

Helen: [Slingblade] already has far more real courage than any alpha male I have ever met.

Me: You need to get out more.

Helen: Sometimes, it takes a lot more courage to just grin and bear it.

Me: Courage? Just not seeing it. Perhaps you can elaborate on how it takes more a lot more courage to take it than it does to confront the person yelling.

Helen: Yes, I do think it can take e great deal of courage indeed to have to face a situation every day where you know you are going to have to grin and bear it.

Me: [provides dictionary definitions of courage asking Helen to clarify]

Helen: "...if you can't see that courage might be needed in a situation like that, then I don't see that there is much I can do to convince you..."

Aggle-rithm: Should I be considered a coward for sticking to my guns in this difficult situation?

qayak: It takes no courage to [grin and bear it].

Tranewreck: Yet they truly believe their Dr. Laura-esque suggestions are sufficient to dub someone a coward if they aren't followed.

Tranewreck: Please, this is a childish definition of "courage." Which takes more courage: showing up to work every day knowing that your supervisor might harass you but realizing you and your family need the job?

Dr. Keith: It takes a huge amount of courage to go to work every day with a psycho boss.

Me: Neither qayak nor myself have used the word coward.

Tranewreck: I enjoy how stupid you think we all are. What is the word for someone lacking in courage?

So, once again, just what are you asking? Why are you asking me? I never said anything about a person lacking courage. I referred to not seeing how an action (well, inaction) required courage. The word coward was not introduced by me nor was the idea of "lacking" courage.

And once again, if I wanted to call somebody a coward, I would. In fact I have, and there was nothing vague about it. I have no qualms about calling a spade a spade. It's not in my nature to pretend I didn't mean something or weasle my way out of it. When I mean cowardice, I say cowardice. Just look for yourself:

What you really should be asking yourself is why TraneWreck is making such a big fuss about all this and claiming people are saying things they didn't say. It's just more hypocrisy and projection on his part. Just look at what he had to say to a pacifist:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4684127#post4684127
I find your stance to be morally repugnant and self-serving. You are only allowed to avoid violent situation because other people in your society do not share your cowardice. I do not simply mean soldiers, though their sacrifice allows you to adopt your selfish position, I also include police officers who confront violence on a daily basis. They provide a haven for you to avoid parts of the country and world you deem beneath you.


This one is funny. In response to somebody saying that cowardice was too strong of a word, TraneWreck said:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4684451#post4684451
What do you call fleeing from the merest chance of violence to abandon people to their fate if not cowardice?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4684060#post4684060
You're pacifism sounds the most selfish, cowardly approach to life I can imagine. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.

He throws the term around in other places as well:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4257012#post4257012
Fine, but recognize that there are few methods of arguing more cowardly then throwing up your hands in hystrionics (note the number of "eyerolls" in your posts), acting as though you're only accepting scientific studies in the midst of ad hoc placation.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4611281#post4611281
You're making stuff up based on your own assumed cowardly reaction to such an incident. Provide something of substance or stop whining.

So, really, get off my ass about this.
 
No it is not "dependent" on others. There are so many different reasons why children become bullies - they're acting out, their own place in the social hierarchy is reliant on providing "entertainment" to their pack, they feel superior, etc.
You managed to contradict yourself before you even finished the paragraph.

Regardless of the why, bullies are lacking in empathy. In high school, add the natural arrogance of the teen and you've got behavior that gently borders on sociopathic. A lot of bullying is casual, impersonal. They cast around until they get a response.
Another contradiction. Your assertion is also incomplete and inaccurate. Maybe some cast about blindly, but I say that most don't. It usually occurs in a social situation, and they probably have a good idea of how people will react. The type of reaction expected affects the initial decision and the type of reaction they get affects whether they do it again.

Telling a targeted child in this situation that there is some rational way to deal with it useless. The reason they get bullied is because they are dealing with situation normally - they ignore taunting, they walk away from conflict, they involve someone in authority.
Agreed. Telling them there is some unnamed solution without working with them to learn what might be best for their particular situation is worthless. Fortunately, nobody is suggesting that.

And then the situation gets worse. Where it was casual harassment, it's now personal. The bully feels that he has every right to act that way, any indication that he might be wrong is met with an immediate and disproportionately harsh response. The situation escalates.
Or in the case of escaped victims, and there are plenty of those, the situation is resolved. I guess we should ignore those lessons.

Many people, and especially children, are not equipped to deal with someone who does not see them as a human being. If you are capable of empathy, it is difficult to understand someone who lacks it.
So equip them as best you can. Explain to them as best they can understand what's going on. Help them develop and try different tactics. It's gotta be better than shrugging your shoulders and telling them they are helpless. Do you think that when they get older they will magically know how to deal with it? A qayak has pointed out, bullying tactics are everywhere you look, from bosses to sales people to the guy talking on his cell phone in the movie theater. There are ways to deal with these situations, and the fact that some situations leave you few options does not mean that all situations are like that.
 
-deleted-
You almost got me Yimmy, but I'm not gonna feel the troll no more.

Have fun fishing with the folks who got too involved with the whole arrogant condescension schtick.
 
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No. It's really very simple and I didn't expect either of you to engage the question.

A lack is a deficiency, the state of being in need of something you don't have. Doing mundane tasks does not involve a lack of courage because there is no courage required and thus no deficiency possible.

Blather and weasel all you want, but it's just that simple.

I don't disagree with your assessment of lack. I never brought up lack of courage. Neither did qayak. So why are you asking the two of us? TraneWreck brought up the notion of lacking courage. Qayak and I argued that courage isn't necessary to simply grin and bear it.

TraneWreck then tried to trap me by asking me what I would call someone lacking in courage. I replied, "Normal." I stick by that. One of the reasons we look at courage and cowardice the way we do is that they are unusual traits. Most people are neither cowardly nor courageous.

TraneWreck intentionally posted an incomplete definition of coward. While "lacking in courage" is an element, it's more than just that. Your source defines it as "ignoble fear" in the face of danger. The root of the word comes tail, as in an animal tucking a tail between its legs in fear. The "ard" suffix is a derogatory suffix, which further adds to the more extreme nature of the word. My dictionary says it's a "timid or easily intimidated person." Thus a person who doesn't stand in front of an oncoming tank is not a coward.

I'll accept that you consider me arrogant and condescending. I've used those same terms to describe myself, though prefaced with at times. What I won't accept is an accusation that I was intentionally insulting when I was not. I will own up to insulting people - it's part of my arrogance.

If you want to argue that I was unintentionally insulting, that's fine. I'll respond saying that it was not my intention. If I wanted to call people cowardly, I would. If people then continue to feel insulted, that's not my problem, me being the arrogant SOB that I am.
 

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