Being bullied

[Jono]

I got bullied six ways from sunday for many years as a child, physically and mentally. I can honestly say I'm over it, i.e I feel no fury or victimhood attached to those events anymore.

 

[Cainkane1]

I got bullied six ways from sunday for many years as a child, physically and mentally. I can honestly say I'm over it, i.e I feel no fury or victimhood attached to those events anymore.

I assume you were younger than 13 when this happened. Bullying is worse when you are a developing teen. I'm happy for you in your ability to overcome a negative experience.

 

[Jono]

I assume you were younger than 13 when this happened. Bullying is worse when you are a developing teen. I'm happy for you in your ability to overcome a negative experience.

From 1st grade to 8th grade, basically from 7-14 years of age. For me it changed, while not over night, quite rapidly as I used the means of physical violence and the old tested oddity of repeating the greek alphabet to 'dissuade' my convergent nemesis'. Thankfully, I didn't mind being considered a strangeling, as long as people knew there was no point or fun continuing to mess with me.
Also, as cheesy as it might sound, it helped alot when my father put me in karate-school when I turned 13. It really helped my sense of self integrity and individual comfort.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

Wow... the question of bullying really brings out the victim blaming in some people. Interestingly, focusing on who the victims are and what they should do differently has so far given really poor results, whereas there is a Norwegian model, whose name escapes me at the moment, that focuses on what's wrong with the perpetrators and how the setting can be tweaked to become less conducive to bullying and above all: targeting the bullies with sanctions, instead of the victims. This model has proven a lot more effective, if not perfect. Also, the term bully often brings to mind one, huge, socially inept kid who singlehandedly and physically target other kids, one at a time. Maybe the term mobbing is more adequate as to what actually happens in these situations.

When everyone in your known part of the universe is either targetting you, or sanctioning targetting you, and letting you know every single day that they actually want you dead - because that is what mobbers are in fact telling you. You might as well be dead. You _should_ be dead. You shouldn't exist because you are so bloody useless. When this is what you grow up through, then you need to be a certain kind of narcissist not to take it to heart.

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

In France, people have gone to prison for workplace bullying, as French law holds the individual, instead of the company/organisation, responsible for their actions. The reason for this is that bullying is WRONG. Yet some people would have us believe that it is being the victim of a bully that is wrong, thus perpetuating the bullying and secondary vicitmizing people. "Well, you see: you weren't bullied because someone with whom you were forced to spend your days was wrong in the head, but because there is something wrong and bullyable about you." The problem does not lie with someone taking the right to behave outside the boundaries towards you, but the fact that you failed to stop it.

These are the people that still think that the way to stop bullying goes through the victim. Whereas the few succesful models that have been used have all been targetted at letting the bully answer for his/her actions. In schools - by adults reacting immediately, in work places - by making the bully him/herself answerable to the law, instead of an ineffective HR department.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some posters that I didn't have an opinion on, or who I thought I liked. This thread has brought out their inner idiot and they are now on my list*.





*My list of people who have the wrong attitude.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Being bullied teaches you about what your society brings out in human nature. In the case of the UK:

Some people enjoy picking on others for any perceived weaknesses they display. Many more enjoy watching or helping them. Some people can't stand to see bullying going on and try to intervene when they see it. Many more keep quiet because they're afraid.

When children are taught life is a competition it is hardly surprising that they (and the adults they become) behave in this way.

 

[qayak]

Wow... the question of bullying really brings out the victim blaming in some people. Interestingly, focusing on who the victims are and what they should do differently has so far given really poor results, whereas there is a Norwegian model, whose name escapes me at the moment, that focuses on what's wrong with the perpetrators and how the setting can be tweaked to become less conducive to bullying and above all: targeting the bullies with sanctions, instead of the victims. This model has proven a lot more effective, if not perfect. Also, the term bully often brings to mind one, huge, socially inept kid who singlehandedly and physically target other kids, one at a time. Maybe the term mobbing is more adequate as to what actually happens in these situations.

When everyone in your known part of the universe is either targetting you, or sanctioning targetting you, and letting you know every single day that they actually want you dead - because that is what mobbers are in fact telling you. You might as well be dead. You _should_ be dead. You shouldn't exist because you are so bloody useless. When this is what you grow up through, then you need to be a certain kind of narcissist not to take it to heart.

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

In France, people have gone to prison for workplace bullying, as French law holds the individual, instead of the company/organisation, responsible for their actions. The reason for this is that bullying is WRONG. Yet some people would have us believe that it is being the victim of a bully that is wrong, thus perpetuating the bullying and secondary vicitmizing people. "Well, you see: you weren't bullied because someone with whom you were forced to spend your days was wrong in the head, but because there is something wrong and bullyable about you." The problem does not lie with someone taking the right to behave outside the boundaries towards you, but the fact that you failed to stop it.

These are the people that still think that the way to stop bullying goes through the victim. Whereas the few succesful models that have been used have all been targetted at letting the bully answer for his/her actions. In schools - by adults reacting immediately, in work places - by making the bully him/herself answerable to the law, instead of an ineffective HR department.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some posters that I didn't have an opinion on, or who I thought I liked. This thread has brought out their inner idiot and they are now on my list*.





*My list of people who have the wrong attitude.

I don't disagree with anything you say here.

What I would like to point out, and it was the point I was making with my date rape analogy, is that although what you say is the way to eventually end bullying, it really doesn't help an individual who is being bullied. An individual is pretty much on their own when it comes to bullying , as evidenced by the stories in this thread, and they need to know how to deal with it.

 

[qayak]

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

What is it that seperates the people who suffer PTSD from those who don't? Both groups went through the same experience but one group continues to suffer, why is that?

My point has never been that victims bring bullying on themselves. My point has been that there is something inside the victim that decides which of the two groups they will fall into after the event. (That is why I have always said "it depends on how the victim handles the situation" and not "the victim did something to bring it on themself.") How do we get more people to fall into the "no long term negative effects" group and less into the PTSD group?

In my experience, I was bullied a lot in grade school, the people who acted seemed to suffer less in the long term. I don't know that it is a cause and effect thing but it seems to be.

 

[Cainkane1]

Wow... the question of bullying really brings out the victim blaming in some people. Interestingly, focusing on who the victims are and what they should do differently has so far given really poor results, whereas there is a Norwegian model, whose name escapes me at the moment, that focuses on what's wrong with the perpetrators and how the setting can be tweaked to become less conducive to bullying and above all: targeting the bullies with sanctions, instead of the victims. This model has proven a lot more effective, if not perfect. Also, the term bully often brings to mind one, huge, socially inept kid who singlehandedly and physically target other kids, one at a time. Maybe the term mobbing is more adequate as to what actually happens in these situations.

When everyone in your known part of the universe is either targetting you, or sanctioning targetting you, and letting you know every single day that they actually want you dead - because that is what mobbers are in fact telling you. You might as well be dead. You _should_ be dead. You shouldn't exist because you are so bloody useless. When this is what you grow up through, then you need to be a certain kind of narcissist not to take it to heart.

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

In France, people have gone to prison for workplace bullying, as French law holds the individual, instead of the company/organisation, responsible for their actions. The reason for this is that bullying is WRONG. Yet some people would have us believe that it is being the victim of a bully that is wrong, thus perpetuating the bullying and secondary vicitmizing people. "Well, you see: you weren't bullied because someone with whom you were forced to spend your days was wrong in the head, but because there is something wrong and bullyable about you." The problem does not lie with someone taking the right to behave outside the boundaries towards you, but the fact that you failed to stop it.

These are the people that still think that the way to stop bullying goes through the victim. Whereas the few succesful models that have been used have all been targetted at letting the bully answer for his/her actions. In schools - by adults reacting immediately, in work places - by making the bully him/herself answerable to the law, instead of an ineffective HR department.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some posters that I didn't have an opinion on, or who I thought I liked. This thread has brought out their inner idiot and they are now on my list*.





*My list of people who have the wrong attitude.

Wow... the question of bullying really brings out the victim blaming in some people. Interestingly, focusing on who the victims are and what they should do differently has so far given really poor results, whereas there is a Norwegian model, whose name escapes me at the moment, that focuses on what's wrong with the perpetrators and how the setting can be tweaked to become less conducive to bullying and above all: targeting the bullies with sanctions, instead of the victims. This model has proven a lot more effective, if not perfect. Also, the term bully often brings to mind one, huge, socially inept kid who singlehandedly and physically target other kids, one at a time.

Maybe the term mobbing is more adequate as to what actually happens in these situations.

Telling some handicapped kid to stand up to a Varsity athlete, school tough or a mob is insane. Deliberate cruelty is the bullys fault not the tormented individual.

When everyone in your known part of the universe is either targetting you, or sanctioning targetting you, and letting you know every single day that they actually want you dead - because that is what mobbers are in fact telling you. You might as well be dead. You _should_ be dead. You shouldn't exist because you are so bloody useless. When this is what you grow up through, then you need to be a certain kind of narcissist not to take it to heart.

I've often wondered what would happen in many of these situations if the victim wasn't in a school. When I was 12 a 17 year old boy was beaten to death by two 19 year old alledgedly because of school rivalry. The 17 year old was a complete stranger to his murderers and I guess this answers my question.

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

You would be right Madam.

In France, people have gone to prison for workplace bullying, as French law holds the individual, instead of the company/organisation, responsible for their actions. The reason for this is that bullying is WRONG. Yet some people would have us believe that it is being the victim of a bully that is wrong, thus perpetuating the bullying and secondary vicitmizing people. "Well, you see: you weren't bullied because someone with whom you were forced to spend your days was wrong in the head, but because there is something wrong and bullyable about you." The problem does not lie with someone taking the right to behave outside the boundaries towards you, but the fact that you failed to stop it.

Viva la France

These are the people that still think that the way to stop bullying goes through the victim. Whereas the few succesful models that have been used have all been targetted at letting the bully answer for his/her actions. In schools - by adults reacting immediately, in work places - by making the bully him/herself answerable to the law, instead of an ineffective HR department.

Blaming the victim is a cop out. The powers that be don't want to confront the bully either. To actually think that the victim is responsible for their won torment is patently absurd.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some posters that I didn't have an opinion on, or who I thought I liked. This thread has brought out their inner idiot and they are now on my list*.

me too. This thread lets me know I'm not alone.

 

[Cainkane1]

What is it that seperates the people who suffer PTSD from those who don't? Both groups went through the same experience but one group continues to suffer, why is that?

My point has never been that victims bring bullying on themselves. My point has been that there is something inside the victim that decides which of the two groups they will fall into after the event. (That is why I have always said "it depends on how the victim handles the situation" and not "the victim did something to bring it on themself.") How do we get more people to fall into the "no long term negative effects" group and less into the PTSD group?

In my experience, I was bullied a lot in grade school, the people who acted seemed to suffer less in the long term. I don't know that it is a cause and effect thing but it seems to be.

Bullys come in all shapes and sizes. They can be handsome or beautiful. They can be rich or poor. They can be physically repulsive. They can have a genius IQ or they can be retarded. The common thread is that a bully likes what he or she is doing. The onus is on the teachers and faculty to do something about it instead of pretending nothings happening.

 

[iknownothing]

Well, according to some people here, you're wrong about being an easy target. According to them it could just as easily been anybody else, and it was random chance that you were singled out for years.

I think there are some of both.

I'm not going to get into specifics because everything is a situation, and I'll hear a dozen arguments about how it wouldn't work or how you couldn't have possibly done that or any of a dozen other excuses.

Too bad, because I was really looking for input. I see lots of examples of how to handle a schoolyard bully who shoves you down and takes your lunch money. But that has nothing to do with any of the psychological warfare type situations I went through.

So what if you get "arguments" back about how your ideas wouldn't work? I was looking for some ideas from a point of view that is obviously not mine. Just maybe your ideas would spark discussion, not all of which would be in agreement with you, but so what? It's hard to get a grasp on a situation from a couple of paragraphs from a stranger, so I don't expect your answer to be a perfect fit...all it needs to be is your perspective. (And if your advice is off, that doesn't mean I'm making an "excuse." It might be that you would need to re-think whether your advice was good. Just possibly.)

It's odd that you have been giving unsolicited advice, but then refuse to answer when advice is sought.

I just hope if you're ever in a situation to assist a young version of yourself that you don't hang her out to dry but actually try to find some way to make the situation better.

Nah, I'm totally engaged in this conversation because I have no interest in finding answers and helping my kids (& other kids).

There are bullies, and there are a lot of other kids who sometimes will bully. In either case, there are things that will set up an environment where they are given a free pass -- or even encouragement -- to bully all they want. Off the top of my head:

• Teachers, coaches and other authorities who have poor control over the kids they are in charge of. Such as teachers who pretend not to see the kid getting things thrown at him in class. Either through weakness, or through wanting to suck up to the popular kids (and in the case of private schools, the parents with deep pockets).

• A cultural attitude -- in the school and/or in the wider culture -- that respects power and despises weakness. I mean, that's always there to some degree, but sometimes much more so, encouraging kids to fight for respect and dominance by showing cruelty to others. Which means that, besides the actual bully and victim, the other kids are more likely to side with the bully and look down on the victim for having been targeted in the first place. And I don't want to confuse this with aggression either, because aggression channeled the right way can be good. I'm talking about an admiration of cruelty.

• A lack of tolerance (or just downright contempt) for anyone who strays from a narrowly defined norm. Such as, a high school where the jocks are treated like gods (as opposed to a school where there are a lot of paths to earning respect from peers). This can lead to bullying by A) implicitly encouraging the kids to target anyone who is different, and to see those kids as somehow less human, and B) by making it harder for the victimized kid to be heard. Such as, if 2 kids are brought to the office for fighting, and the principal assumes that the "nice looking" kid was in the right and the "weird looking" kid was the one who started it.

I agree 100% with trying to teach a kid the skills to handle bullies and hopefully not become a target. But when bullying is being discussed, the emphasis also needs to strongly be on those factors in the school environment that encourage bullying, and on changing attitudes that encourage bullying.

Many people, and especially children, are not equipped to deal with someone who does not see them as a human being. If you are capable of empathy, it is difficult to understand someone who lacks it.

And it is strange that we expect children to be able to cope with situations that most adults rarely if ever encounter. The reality is that the most disturbed, vicious bullies wind up in jail, or in intermittent entry-level jobs in adulthood. The kids who were just immature, tend to...mature. I have never in adult life had to encounter a situation like any I experienced in school.

 

[Elvis666]

Who here asked you for your advice?

You have done a marvelous job of standing up to a bully right here and now. (Is there a smilie for a slow clap?)

 

[Cainkane1]

And it is strange that we expect children to be able to cope with situations that most adults rarely if ever encounter. The reality is that the most disturbed, vicious bullies wind up in jail, or in intermittent entry-level jobs in adulthood. The kids who were just immature, tend to...mature. I have never in adult life had to encounter a situation like any I experienced in school.[/QUOTE]

You would if you had been in my school. A lot of these punks grew up to be even worse in adulthood.

 

[Cainkane1]

You have done a marvelous job of standing up to a bully right here and now. (Is there a smilie for a slow clap?)

So you're a bully yourself?

 

[Uncayimmy]

Wow... the question of bullying really brings out the victim blaming in some people.

Wow...the question of bullying brings out the straw men in people. Nobody has blamed the victim. Suggesting that some people are more likely to be targets than others and that perhaps something can be done about that is not blaming the victim. Saying that how a target reacts to the situation has an effect on whether that person simply engages in an altercation, becomes an ex-victim or a chronic victim is not blaming the victim.

I find it incredibly condescending that you believe that all victims are helpless creatures selected at random and that they should simply endure whatever comes their way because nothing can be done from their end. If you disagree with that statement, then cut the crap about blaming the victim.

targeting the bullies with sanctions, instead of the victims.

Nobody has suggested that people in authority should stand by and do nothing. In fact qayak and myself have both talked about how we've engaged bullies on behalf of victims. We just understand that a multi-faceted approach is in order because in far too many situations, those in power do not act.

Fact: bullying/mobbing victims display the same symptoms of PTSD as people who have been held hostage, been robbed, lived in war zones. A large percentage of them live through the flashbacks, the bad recurring dreams, suspicious against new people and the motives of other people etc.

Some do, yes. So wouldn't it be a good idea to look at all possible ways for those people to avoid that experience? Or should we just wring our hands, cluck our tongues, and talk about how teachers and bosses just don't do enough? If only they would use the Model du Jour, everything would be hunky dory.

"Sorry, Johnny. Your school doesn't have an anti-bullying model. So, run along now and catch the bus. Yes, I know you're going to get picked on, but you're a victim, son. A helpless victim. There's nothing whatsoever you could possibly do to change that, so you'll just have to accept it. Maybe before you graduate, if you don't slit your wrists first, they will adopt a model that properly sanctions the bullies. Until then, we have 20 mental health visits per year on our insurance for you to deal with your PTSD."

These are the people that still think that the way to stop bullying goes through the victim.

Who are these people made of straw? What you don't get is that an individual who completely avoids getting bullied or becomes an ex-victim has actually done nothing to "stop" the "problem" of bullying because there's always another victim somewhere. There will always be victims. That doesn't mean one shouldn't try to find ways to avoid being one of them.

You know, it's funny how emotions are clouding so much judgment. If we substituted "con artists" for "bullies" nobody would be batting an eye. In fact, most people would be offering all sorts of suggestions on how to avoid it while still remembering that even the most astute skeptic can get swindled.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some posters that I didn't have an opinion on, or who I thought I liked. This thread has brought out their inner idiot and they are now on my list*.

If you want to keep a list of people whose attitudes you've misconstrued, that's your problem. That you feel the need to announce it speaks volumes about yourself.

 

[qayak]

The onus is on the teachers and faculty to do something about it instead of pretending nothings happening.

There are three issues with this, first it doesn't help in the immediate, it helps in the future. Second, it only helps in limited situations. I don't know how a teacher stopping a bully in grade 3 helps a person being bullied at work. And three, it still doesn't stop the trauma of being bullied when no one is arounmd to rescue you.

This is the same with expecting the police to protect every individual at every moment. Courts and governments have recognized that it is impossible and have allowed that a person has the right to defend themselves.

We have seen through many personal experiences in this thread that there is often no clear evidence or bullying. Often when a person goes to an authority it is a case of he said, she said. Bullies are very good at shifting blame.

So while I agree that what you say should be the case, I recognize that it is completely impossible. And even if it was possible sometime in the future, how are you going to help the people who are currently being bullied?

 

[slingblade]

You have done a marvelous job of standing up to a bully right here and now. (Is there a smilie for a slow clap?)

Allow me to offer you a slightly self-satisfied smile, a nod, and a wink in thanks.

 

[SOdhner]

DISCLAIMER: I'm a lazy jerk who has not read the whole discussion and is only responding to items in the last few pages.

1. The victim blaming thing is certainly a fine line. There's a difference between "This happened because you didn't do X" and "You can prevent that from happening by doing X" and often it's a difference of delivery rather than intent.

2. Bullies don't pick people at random, though there is a strong element of chance. That is to say, many of the factors that might cause a bully to single you out are well outside of the control of you, the bully, or anyone else - such as happening to be seated in the wrong place in an assembly or having a bird randomly and publicly poo on your face. Once a triggering event ('event' may be too strong a word, it can be incredibly minor) takes place the bully will (mostly subconsciously) size you up and decide if he's going to bully you.

3. I could imagine a case where passive acceptance might be an act of courage, but the vast majority of the time I would say it is not an indicator of unusual courage or cowardice. In the personal examples I can think of it was an act of restraint more than anything else - had I stood up to the particular bully that I'm thinking of it would have made matters worse because the authority figures were fairly useless and he was far superior to me physically. I wasn't being brave or cowardly, I just thought about my initial urge (stab him with a pencil) and decided that, sadly, just putting up with it was actually the most beneficial option.

4. Random anecdote that doesn't really contribute to the conversation: Something happened my junior year of high school where I managed to gather a large group of social rejects around myself. Without even realizing it we formed a fairly large group at lunch, more than twenty kids. It didn't look like a coherent group from a distance, and sometimes a bully would try to pick on someone. In that group environment none of us were intimidated in the slightest, however, and we would ruthlessly mock the bullies - who were completely caught off guard and had no idea how to react. Once they realized the losers had unionized they left us all alone for the rest of high school. This wasn't a deliberate strategy on our part and the bullying wasn't actually terrible at that school to begin with, but it's still a fun memory.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I think there are some of both.

On that we agree.

Too bad, because I was really looking for input. I see lots of examples of how to handle a schoolyard bully who shoves you down and takes your lunch money. But that has nothing to do with any of the psychological warfare type situations I went through.

I'll give it a shot because it actually makes me very sad when I think about what you went through. Honestly, it makes me a little teary. Thing is, it's so very hard to give advice without knowing all of the particulars. Everybody is different. So much depends on your personality (by your, I mean the younger you) and the dynamics of the situation you are in. Here are some things that come to mind that I would consider trying. I acknowledge up front that my suggestions may not work, but I would certainly consider them as possible approaches.

For example, take the situation with choosing partners. The first thing you would need to learn is to trust your parents and tell them about this stuff. Suffering it alone and in silence is not healthy. That would be a message as a parent I would drive home to you. Had you told me, I would have talked to the teacher. Granted, this is something an authority figure does rather than the "victim" but it stems from an action of the victim. My ex was a teacher, and she knew better than to make groups like that. I would have explained to the teacher that I certainly understand why she wants children to work in small groups, but allowing them to assert their friendships is counterproductive in many ways.

First, it hurts my daughter emotionally because she is singled out as being without friends, and everybody sees it, which only reinforces the divide. Second, when children work with their friends, they are often less productive because they goof around as kids will do. Third, part of the experience of growing up is learning to work with all kinds of people, so it's educational to have them work with as many different people as possible. Therefore, I suggest that the teacher make up groups in advance. If she's too busy, I would offer to give her a printout with dozens of possible combinations so all she has to do is read from the list. If she resisted, I'd take it to the principal.

Along those same lines I would relate the story of what one of my teachers did when I was in elementary school. My best friend and I were the best athletes and natural leaders. Instead of the usual method of picking teams where we went from best to worst, she suggested something else. She told us, "Because you alternate picks, you guys end up with evenly matched teams, right?" We agreed. "You trust each other, right?" We agreed.

So she told us that she wanted us to pick early some of the kids who always got picked last. "If Jim picks someone who is not very good at catching a ball, then David, you pick somebody like that. And if David picks somebody who is a great hitter, then Jim, you pick a great hitter. Just try to make the teams even, okay?"

It taught me a big lesson in fairness and empathy for my classmates, and I'm sure some of the kids were grateful not to be standing there alone. I don't think anybody was fooled into thinking we had reassessed the athletic pecking order, but it was certainly better than the old way. The teacher also had us keep the same teams for a few weeks at a time. David and I also used this same technique during recess where we were picking teams on our own. Hopefully the teacher will see things differently.

So, by you opening up and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to those who care about you and receiving some help, maybe you don't feel as isolated. I would work very hard to help you realize that you don't have to go through this alone. And before somebody comes back with, "what if the parent won't do that?" let me remind folks that I was asked what I would suggest to somebody, so that person, parent or otherwise, exists as part of the given scenario.

What if the teacher refused and continued with this ridiculous way of forming groups? I would encourage you to find one friend to cover your back. Everybody needs at least one person like that. If you tell me that absolutely nobody likes you and that it's impossible, I would need some serious convincing. I would work very hard to help you understand that you're a likable person to people other than your family. I would explain that it might mean some risk taking (rejection), but every kid has insecurities. I would explain that there's probably one kid somewhere who is only going along with it because they are scared of rejection as well.

There's probably another kid who dreads the group selection process. I would encourage you to look for other people who feel the same as you, because chances are they are there. Most kids get that sick feeling in those situations - you're not alone. Maybe realizing that will help you. Maybe helping somebody else will give you confidence.

Point being I would work very hard to help you find one other person who always have your back and that you will always have his or her back. When that group thing comes up, you guys are paired up. Period. This is something you talk about and agree upon. Pinky swear, cross your heart and hope to die.

The lip gloss incident is harder. Much harder. The first thing I would is help you find somebody who knows about those things. I would explain to you that being "girly" and fashionable is not something little girls are born with. It's something that needs to be learned. While it may seem that it comes "naturally" it really doesn't. It's hard for us to judge ourselves that way.

So, again, I would encourage you to seek out someone else. Of course, we're still faced with the whole, "there's nobody who will touch me with a ten foot pole" thing. I happen to think that in most cases that's not true. It may seem like that, but maybe there's someone else willing to engage you one-on-one, which is the only way for you to do it. If there really is nobody else, then that's a horribly complicated situation to resolve.

Anyway, before you go out wearing lip gloss for the first time, I would encourage you to experiment with make-up with somebody. This involves being vulnerable again, but that's a risk we have to take to make friends. Maybe you can play into the ego of a more "mature" girl to help you out. If you and your friend both show up with make-up, it's a little easier to deal with being teased and probably less likely to result in teasing. If the mature girl helps you, then to tease you means to tease her. It's that whole social support thing.

If your personality lends itself to snarky retorts in the face of teasing, I would try to find ways to help you in that regard. I would see if I could help you find ways to respond where you don't try to win but play to a draw. If they call you beautiful, say "thank you." If they say, "I wasn't serious" say "Neither was I. I just didn't know what else to say to a girl who was so interested in my lips."

I would try to help you understand that these people are unable to elevate themselves, so they attempt to lower you. I would help you try to understand that their insecurities drive them as much as your insecurities drive you. They just have strength in numbers. Part of your process of growing up may end up just learning how to deal with being outcast by some nasty people. You are still who you are. If they were all to die in bizarre gardening accidents over the weekend, that wouldn't make you a better person, so if they all show up for school alive and well on Monday, that doesn't make you less of a person.

The less they are able to "lower" you in their eyes, the harder they will try, but only up to a point. There will come a time where it's simply not worth the effort. This is a long winded way of saying it might get worse until it gets better. You may never be fully accepted, only tolerated. Is that so bad? Do you really want to be good friends with people who need to belittle others?

We need to pick our friends, and sometimes that means picking none at all if there's not a good selection. If we go grocery shopping and there's nothing but a bunch of rotten apples, then we don't buy apples. If we do, we just nibble on the good parts and toss the rest.

That's about the best I can do without knowing the little girl or the people around her. In a nutshell I would try to help the victim find ways to affect the behavior of the bullies and bystanders while at the same time try to develop a mindset that makes it easier to deal with the blows. What's interesting is that each affects the other. The goal is to reverse the spiral so it goes up rather than down.

It's odd that you have been giving unsolicited advice, but then refuse to answer when advice is sought.

I grew weary. Sorry.

There are bullies, and there are a lot of other kids who sometimes will bully. In either case, there are things that will set up an environment where they are given a free pass -- or even encouragement -- to bully all they want.

Damn right. I am all for altering the environment.

I agree 100% with trying to teach a kid the skills to handle bullies and hopefully not become a target. But when bullying is being discussed, the emphasis also needs to strongly be on those factors in the school environment that encourage bullying, and on changing attitudes that encourage bullying.

I agree. One should not come at the exclusion of the other. The one thing I, as a parent, can do today is work with my child. Tomorrow maybe I can work with the teacher. In six months or a year I can work with the PTA. In a year or two after that maybe we can together work with the school.

And it is strange that we expect children to be able to cope with situations that most adults rarely if ever encounter. The reality is that the most disturbed, vicious bullies wind up in jail, or in intermittent entry-level jobs in adulthood. The kids who were just immature, tend to...mature. I have never in adult life had to encounter a situation like any I experienced in school.

I disagree that adults don't encounter similar situations. The players and specifics change, but the underlying principles remain the same. They physical bullying diminishes, but the verbal/emotional bullying increases in my opinion. It happens in the work place, board rooms, church groups, wedding parties, and marriages. Sales people use the same techniques, only we call it high pressure sales tactics when it's really just bullying. People do it to climb the corporate ladder, only we call them go-getters.

 

[Uncayimmy]

DISCLAIMER: I'm a lazy jerk who has not read the whole discussion and is only responding to items in the last few pages.

1. The victim blaming thing is certainly a fine line. There's a difference between "This happened because you didn't do X" and "You can prevent that from happening by doing X" and often it's a difference of delivery rather than intent.

Actually, asking somebody "why didn't you try X, Y or Z?" has been construed as telling people what do and "blaming" the victim. Nobody has said you "can" prevent it if you "do X" but rather that victims should look at their own behaviors and attitudes to see if what, if anything, they might be able to do.

2. Bullies don't pick people at random, though there is a strong element of chance. That is to say, many of the factors that might cause a bully to single you out are well outside of the control of you, the bully, or anyone else - such as happening to be seated in the wrong place in an assembly or having a bird randomly and publicly poo on your face. Once a triggering event ('event' may be too strong a word, it can be incredibly minor) takes place the bully will (mostly subconsciously) size you up and decide if he's going to bully you.

No argument from me on that point. In school bullies typically know their victims to some degree and have a good idea of the expected outcome of their behavior. If you watch the shows about prisons, they inmates talk about the steps they take to prevent becoming victims, and the stakes there are much higher.

If you watch interviews with gang members, you'll see that victims are not always random. At the very least they assess the chances of the victim fighting back. They are far less likely to jump Rambo than Pee Wee Herman.

They also have issues with "respect" in ways that the rest of us don't. The two mistakes you can make that increases your odds of being hassled are not making eye contact and making the wrong kind of eye contact.

Not looking at them might project fear. Another overlooked issue is that it's sometimes construed as contempt. Not being acknowledged is sometimes taken as affront. I've seen interviews with gang members who were genuinely pissed off that people come into their turf and pretend like they aren't there. Making eye contact that looks like a challenge is not a good idea either. The best way to deal with it is to meet their eyes and give them a nod.

It's not a guarantee of anything, but it makes a difference. If you get jumped, it's not your "fault" - it's their fault.

3. I could imagine a case where passive acceptance might be an act of courage, but the vast majority of the time I would say it is not an indicator of unusual courage or cowardice.

Agreed.

4. Random anecdote that doesn't really contribute to the conversation: Something happened my junior year of high school where I managed to gather a large group of social rejects around myself. Without even realizing it we formed a fairly large group at lunch, more than twenty kids. It didn't look like a coherent group from a distance, and sometimes a bully would try to pick on someone. In that group environment none of us were intimidated in the slightest, however, and we would ruthlessly mock the bullies - who were completely caught off guard and had no idea how to react. Once they realized the losers had unionized they left us all alone for the rest of high school. This wasn't a deliberate strategy on our part and the bullying wasn't actually terrible at that school to begin with, but it's still a fun memory.

Social support is widely recognized as a common factor in non-victims and escaped victims of bullying.

 

[bookitty]

Wall o' text.

I read every word of that. None of it would help. In general, sure - change the environment, talk to to the parents, deflection, self-esteem, yadda yadda.

Do you really think that bullied children haven't tried all that? They have, they are desperate for solutions. You don't seem to be able to grasp the insidiousness of the bully. Every action the targeted child takes leads to escalation.

In your world, the targeted child tells a parent who goes to a teacher. Now the bully is angry. Tactics may change or become more subtle. Every single one of the targeted child's peers knows it.

So now, with everyone staying the hell away from the caste-less, you tell them it is their responsibility to get someone else on their side. The only children who would consider it are those who are relieved that the bully's attention is away from them. Even if one of these other peer-dubbed misfits does try to help, it only makes it easier for the bully. There are two targets in close range. Again, it escalates.

And, my god, the idea of telling a 13 year old that they had better get someone to watch their back when they feel that the whole world loathes them? It's beyond cruel.

So what works? Getting the child out of that school. I know two girls who became different people when they changed environments.

Childhood bullying is very, very different from high-pressured sales tactics. A salesman type bully is trying to override your resistance to whatever he is trying to sell/tell you. They do the same thing to everyone. It is not personal. A childhood bully is personal. Once a child is targeted the bully makes it his lifes work to notice and attack every single detail. It's deeply personal.

If there is any adult comparison, it would be stalking.