Being bullied

[Roboramma]

Or the larger the classroom, the more cover.

That's what I was thinking. I think bullying really is more about social status, and fitting in to a social group than anything else. If the group is large enough, the potential victims of bullying can more easily blend into the background. At least, that's my vague guess.

 

[Roboramma]

My high school was a lot like this. The valedictorian for my class (2004) and the one before it were both football players.

I'm a little bit surprised to hear that so many people here had problems with bullies because as far as I can tell it wasn't a problem at my high school. I don't recall seeing anybody being bullied. And this is a big public high school with nearly 3000 students.

My high school was similar: I wouldn't say all the popular kids were smart, but I'd say that the distribution wasn't skewed the other way either.

And I didn't see much bullying in high school, though it happened a bit. I do remember kids bragging about having made so and so cry, and me getting in to arguments with them over it, but generally people were pretty cool to each other in my high school (and I was pretty low on the popularity-scale, so I'd know). In junior high and particularly elementary school, though, it was a very different story.

When I was in 5th and 6th grades there was one kid in my class that was tormented horrendously. It's still one of the things I feel most guilty about to this day that I did very little to help him. I at least didn't participate in his torment. But when the kids in my class (it was not anyone in particular, but everyone) blamed every thing that happened on him: "Who said that!" says the teacher, "Justin!" says any one of the students in the class. At which point the clueless teacher hands down another punishment on Justin who, once again, has done nothing wrong.
And when the teacher wasn't there? "Hey, Justin, isn't that the same shirt you wore yesterday?" Asks one of the girls in the class. Everyone laughs, and then the next person comes in with "He's been wearing the same one all week." "Don't you notice the smell, Justin?" Etc.
I don't remember much physical violence, though he certainly got tripped in the halls a lot. But the torment was constant, and it came from almost everyone. I hated myself for not stopping it. For not calling my friends on it when they talked about him behind his back. But I was terrified that they'd think I was his friend, and that I'd thus become him.

He went to a different junior than me, and most of the kids in my elementary school, and I hope things went better for him after that.

 

[Cainkane1]

My high school was similar: I wouldn't say all the popular kids were smart, but I'd say that the distribution wasn't skewed the other way either.

And I didn't see much bullying in high school, though it happened a bit. I do remember kids bragging about having made so and so cry, and me getting in to arguments with them over it, but generally people were pretty cool to each other in my high school (and I was pretty low on the popularity-scale, so I'd know). In junior high and particularly elementary school, though, it was a very different story.

When I was in 5th and 6th grades there was one kid in my class that was tormented horrendously. It's still one of the things I feel most guilty about to this day that I did very little to help him. I at least didn't participate in his torment. But when the kids in my class (it was not anyone in particular, but everyone) blamed every thing that happened on him: "Who said that!" says the teacher, "Justin!" says any one of the students in the class. At which point the clueless teacher hands down another punishment on Justin who, once again, has done nothing wrong.
And when the teacher wasn't there? "Hey, Justin, isn't that the same shirt you wore yesterday?" Asks one of the girls in the class. Everyone laughs, and then the next person comes in with "He's been wearing the same one all week." "Don't you notice the smell, Justin?" Etc.
I don't remember much physical violence, though he certainly got tripped in the halls a lot. But the torment was constant, and it came from almost everyone. I hated myself for not stopping it. For not calling my friends on it when they talked about him behind his back. But I was terrified that they'd think I was his friend, and that I'd thus become him.

He went to a different junior than me, and most of the kids in my elementary school, and I hope things went better for him after that.

This reveals how out of touch with reality teachers can be. If you got beat up in my school nothing happened to the bully. The only time I saw a punk punished was when the punk knocked the victims front teeth out. The punk was expelled and the punks family was sued by the family of the victim.

Onn one occassion a punk picked on a weaker student and when the victim tried to fght back he got a shiner and the victim was bleeding from a cut. The scumbag who hit him was unpunished and later in life the punk got put in prison for aggravated assault and murder.

 

[Chaos]

Maybe it is that the larger the classroom the more likely someone is to come to the aid of the person being bullied.

Maybe also a bigger chance that at least one teacher is at that school who happens to take bullying serious?

Because, in my experience, the only problem teachers (with a very small number of honorable exceptions) have with bullying is that the victim sometimes complains about it in some way.

 

[LashL]

Imagine a hard rubber hammer. The business ends are about two inches in diameter and smooth. Imagine four smaller, similar hammers. Imagine the sharp pain as it connects with your forehead and the dull pain it leaves behind.
(snipped) ...

You begin your new career in your new school with your head down, your mouth shut, and your wall built sturdily around you. Because you know that in the book bags with the high school emblems and the back packs of these new peers, the hammers rest, waiting.

Nominated.

 

[negativ]

Voices from the Hellmouth - published shortly after Columbine, IIRC

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

That's what I was thinking. I think bullying really is more about social status, and fitting in to a social group than anything else. If the group is large enough, the potential victims of bullying can more easily blend into the background. At least, that's my vague guess.

I noticed that I went to a 2,000 plus person high school, and dtugg went to one with 3,000, and we both report not really having this bullying problem. I DID see a little bit of bullying (and experience it myself) in my junior high, which was a much much smaller school.

I have also noticed when speaking with others that it seems bullying was more common and more pronounced for people who lived in small towns with small schools.

I think that as others have pointed out, class size probably has a lot to do with this. In my school, it was just so big that there really weren't any "loners." Even the kids who I would consider the least popular still had a decent sized group of friends. So I imagine this would help because your friends have your back. It also just helps you blend into the background when there are so many kids.

I also wonder if being from a city can help. In a city, all different kinds of fashions and styles and lifestyles are apparent and all around you. So for instance, you may be a preppy football player, and not be a goth or a punk, but you see enough goths and punks out in your day to day life that they don't seem so "weird" to you, and so the goth or punk kids in your high school don't seem that different. And it works within the school as well. Instead of having one or two goth kids you can isolate and pick on, you have 150 goth kids. Instead of having one or two gay kids at school, you have dozens out of the closet. Etc etc. It's a lot harder to single them out when they have substantial numbers in the city you live in. And they seem less weird when you're just used to being around people like them.

However, if you are from some tiny town and you're one of 3 goth kids in it, I imagine you stick out MUCH more and therefor become a target much more easily

 

[aggle-rithm]

Much has been written in these forums about bullying, the bullies, the origins and the consequences. What is hardest to write about is how it feels specifically to be bullied. Everyone knows that it feels bad, that it breaks the spirit, that it hurts. But how to describe exactly the way it feels?

The way I've always thought of it is:

Imagine you are an adult and every day you must go to a job where you are ridiculed and harrassed by your coworkers. If you complain to your boss you are simply told to get back to work.

Add to this the following condition: YOU CAN'T QUIT. You have to return to this situation day after day, year after year.

Now imagine you don't have the coping skills that an adult has to deal with this type of stress.

That's what it's like. An adult wouldn't be able to handle it. A child is expected to.

 

[LibraryLady]

The way I've always thought of it is:

Imagine you are an adult and every day you must go to a job where you are ridiculed and harrassed by your coworkers. If you complain to your boss you are simply told to get back to work.

Add to this the following condition: YOU CAN'T QUIT. You have to return to this situation day after day, year after year.

Now imagine you don't have the coping skills that an adult has to deal with this type of stress.

That's what it's like. An adult wouldn't be able to handle it. A child is expected to.

That is a great analogy. And something that is actually experienced by some.

 

[sgtbaker]

I went to two drastically different types of schools. From K to the middle of 10th grade, I went to a very small school where everyone knew everyone. There were the wealthy kids and the poor kids; very few in the middle income group. The alphas were rich, involved in sports, and in the higher academic classes. There was only one "cool" group and if you weren't in it, you were a target for them. The only people that alphas didn't pick on were the burnouts because they were scary. I would love to assume that it was insecurity or that I was a threat but my experience tells me that the only issue they had was that they were a bunch of narcissists. They were that way because their parents were self entitled.

The second school I went to was huge and lower income. It was too big to have one dominant group. It was a lot easier to blend in.

 

[Cainkane1]

Wikipedia has an interesting article on bullying and it describes how even teachers can get into bulying certain students.

 

[Mark6]

Qayak, with all due respect, this is a thread about a serious issue; you may want to take trolling elsewhere.

As an aside: Any phrase which begins "with all due respect" is a lie.

Although I agree that Qayak is trolling.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Wikipedia has an interesting article on bullying and it describes how even teachers can get into bulying certain students.

In nations where it is impossible, or near-impossible, to fire a teacher, this can develop into a huge problem for the affected kids.

 

[AnnieJ]

Wikipedia has an interesting article on bullying and it describes how even teachers can get into bulying certain students.

I have seen this happen. I worked with behavioral children for several years in a school system. Granted some of these children did bully but some of the teachers made things worse. These kids were blamed for things that they didn't do. They were made examples of when they didn't deserve it.

Some of the behavior from the teachers was just as bad as any of the behavior by these children.

Often if any of these kids had legitimate complaints they were often ignored and then made to feel as if it was there fault that other kids were attacking them.

 

[AnnieJ]

In nations where it is impossible, or near-impossible, to fire a teacher, this can develop into a huge problem for the affected kids.

Tenure...don't you love it. It does nothing but force us to put up with incompetent teachers for years while that trail of paper work takes place.

 

[pgwenthold]

Am I the only one who went to a school where the popular kids were smart? The class president, prom queen, etc, were all in AP classes with me. In my high school at least, there wasn't a real bullying problem. I went to a 2,000 person public high school, but it wasn't very cliquish. You could be a football player who hung out with a gay math geek and you wouldn't lose your social status over it. But I would say the least popular kids were all pretty, frankly, stupid. The most popular kids were almost all AP students who were in things like the chemistry or Latin club.

Maybe I went to a different kind of school...

As I tell my wife, the only thing my high school class excelled in was underachieving.

The popular kids were the ones who could get by by doing the least.

 

[dafydd]

Honestly? I think hating them would have been healthier for you.

Yes it would.I was bullied at grammar school and I was very pleased to hear from my brother in Wales that one of the bullies had died recently.I still hate the other three bastards.It was hell.

 

[qayak]

As an aside: Any phrase which begins "with all due respect" is a lie.

Although I agree that Qayak is trolling.

No, he is reading to see if anyone has anything to add. There are a few but not the ones who keep rehashing their experience at the hands of a bully and now want all bullies dead.

Ironically, the book I am reading right now has a chapter discussing bullying and it isn't very hopeful. It basically says that studies show bullying is a result of an increase in seratonin which rises with an increase in power. your serotonin levels rise whether you seize power or have it given to you. Simply by giving someone a tiny amount of power over their peers, you immediately begin to see the behaviour. The authors claim this is why so many famous people are such jerks, why so many work places are so toxic, and why we tolerate rudeness from powerful people.

The only advice the authors have is that you should always act (which is what I have been saying) on it.

". . . point out immediately, clearly, and calmly how such and such action is unfair, belittling or rude. Insist that it is wrong and that you will not accept it. Warn that if it is repeated, you will certainly seek to have it publicized and punished. In all this, you show your power - over words, your own emotions, and the situation - sending out a signal that can sober up even the most serotonin-intoxicated. We live in an unfair world and this may not always work, but at least you will have done (as any chimpanzee would agree) the right thing.

The point being that it is the group that controls the power of the heirarchy. You need to get the group to agree that the bully is being unfair and their anger at the unfairness will keep the bully in check.

The reason bullies are allowed is because it is a small price to pay for the good things they bring to the group. Group members will tolerate almost anything except unfair behaviour. Their response to unfairness is anger. Terrible leaders can rule for their entire life, as long as they are fair about it.

In this context, it makes sense that there is less bullying in larger groups where the heirarchy is not isolated from the group members.

 

[iknownothing]

I went to two drastically different types of schools. From K to the middle of 10th grade, I went to a very small school where everyone knew everyone. There were the wealthy kids and the poor kids; very few in the middle income group. The alphas were rich, involved in sports, and in the higher academic classes. There was only one "cool" group and if you weren't in it, you were a target for them.

Almost exactly my experience. I think that is the key to the small school / large school issue -- in a small school there is only room for 1 popular clique, and they dominate completely.

The school I went to was a small Christian school. We were always being warned about the evils of the public school system; I thought things would get so much worse "out there." The reality was, though, that when I changed and went to the public high school, there was so much more variety of types of people, and so many different cliques and groups, that it was a huge relief. Of course I still was still hampered by the damage done by my previous years in school, but still it was a better environment.

 

[iknownothing]

The only advice the authors have is that you should always act (which is what I have been saying) on it.



The point being that it is the group that controls the power of the heirarchy. You need to get the group to agree that the bully is being unfair and their anger at the unfairness will keep the bully in check.

Okay, but how is that not "whining" (as you said earlier)?