Being bullied

[Schrodinger's Cat]

It's stories like the ones listed in this thread (and things I have seen myself) that make me never ever want to raise kids in a small town. Well, nor live in one myself, for that matter.

Yeah, there's lots of advantages. Nature, community, etc. But as a city dweller, I just have met way, way too many people who were smart, or gay, or not into sports, etc, and who spent their whole lives ostracized, just waiting for the day they turned 18 so they could run for the city and a place where they could fit in. Small towns are probably pretty great if you conform to the norm. But if you're different, more often than not, you're just out of luck.

 

[Cainkane1]

I understand the need to defend your child, even when you shouldn't, because I've done it. It wasn't a typical bully situation; more of an isolated event between my kids and a couple of neighborhood kids. I will probably never know who started what because there are about 4 different versions. My kids were playing with two other kids that lived in the neighborhood. There is tension between these two that were playing with my kids and two other boys that lived down the road. The two boys were riding their bikes around the neighborhood and each time they passed, words were shared. My son, in his infinite wisdom, decided to grab a golf club and swing at them on their next pass. My oldest daughter came in and alerted me to what my son was doing and I sent the two neighborhood kids home and called my kids in to figure out exactly what went down.

While I am beating my head against the wall, trying to figure out at exactly what point in the day my son's common sense checked out, the mother of the bicycle riders came to my door. Mind you, up until this point, my son was in trouble and was going to go to their house to make a formal apology. She was polite and nonconfrontational, she was just making sure I knew what happened. I don't know what came over me. Out of nowhere, this aggression took over; she had some nerve coming to me and telling me that my son was wrong. I yelled back at her, "Maybe you can try telling your kids not to ride around the neighborhood harassing other kids." and slammed the door in her face. For a few seconds afterwards, I even tried to justify that behavior, to myself. Then I saw this smug look of satisfaction on my son's face.
I sent my son to his room (all electronics are disconnected so being confined to a room is never pleasant), went outside to get my thoughts and try to figure out exactly how to undo the damage. First and foremost, that woman deserved an apology. I took my son and we walked down to her house with my tail between my legs. She was very accepting of my apology and actually confessed that she's found herself in similar situations; where the urge to defend your child trumps your obligation as a parent. My son had to make a formal apology to her sons and he had to explain why it was wrong. They shook hands and agreed that if they couldn't get along, they would say nothing at all. He also had his own punishments at home but my main concern was making it clear to him that I reacted on emotion and there was no defending it. It was a horrible, humiliating experience. However, and I don't know if anyone experienced anything similar but it's a weird thing when someone comes to you with something negative about your child. Especially when, until that point, you felt you've taught them better.

Good for you.

 

[iknownothing]

How do you know the bullying was the cause of these problems? I understand that people want to have a cause for all the bad things in their lives but how do you know.

I have gone back & forth in my mind over the years on how much I think my social awkwardness caused the bullying, versus being caused by.

But some emotional scars are pretty clear. Like, my 8th grade class had a running joke where if I said something, someone would say "shut up [my name], you don't count." It was literally about 5 years later that I realized one day that the reason I was constantly telling myself "shut up, you don't count" was probably related to that. I know that sounds weird that I didn't make that connection before, because I certainly remembered it all along. I just internalized it so much I barely thought about it while I was doing it.

Education on skills to deal with it on an individual level is the only answer I see.

I'm with you up until you get to the word "only." Yes, as a parent the best thing I can do for my children is to teach them how to cope. (If it's even possible to teach someone to react like someone else. I'm trying to start teaching some of those skills with my 4 y/o, but he is just an intense kid who doesn't let things slide easily, so it's going to be a very hard lesson for him.)

But you can certainly work to change the attitudes of the adults in authority that let bullies do what they want. The ones who blame the victims or think they deserved it. You can come down hard on those who encourage it (like a football coach who encourages his players to haze new freshmen). Teachers can pay attention to what's going on in their classroom and not allow kids to attack each other. As parents you can let the school know that you expect them to be paying attention. A lot of times on the playground all it takes is an adult presence to curb the worst of the bullying (even if they'll still get away with the sneakier smaller stuff).

Saying there's nothing that can be done is an unwarranted helpless attitude.

 

[RockNroll]

Am I the only one who went to a school where the popular kids were smart? The class president, prom queen, etc, were all in AP classes with me. In my high school at least, there wasn't a real bullying problem. I went to a 2,000 person public high school, but it wasn't very cliquish. You could be a football player who hung out with a gay math geek and you wouldn't lose your social status over it. But I would say the least popular kids were all pretty, frankly, stupid. The most popular kids were almost all AP students who were in things like the chemistry or Latin club.

Maybe I went to a different kind of school...

My school was somewhat like that (just change football for hockey ). Well, not all the popular students were smart (in fact, many weren't), but being smart was no impediment to being popular. I was in an enriched program in high school, and I remember only one instance of someone attempting to mock me for it. I pointed out to him that mocking intelligence was a pretty dumb thing to do, got a few chuckles from fellow classmates, then never saw that guy again.

Also, we had no cliques and "segregation" like you see in most Hollywood teen comedies. My closest group of friends was made up of metalheads, athletes, punk rockers, geeks, etc., and we got along quite well.

Heck, I was (and still am) a huge nerd and weirdo, with rather "eccentric" social habits, but I had as many friends and dates as anyone else. Maybe it was due to me also being a bit of a class clown, and bigger and stronger than most of my peers, but I have almost 100% positive memories of my elementary and high school days.

However, after reading this post and the numerous testimonies of severely bullied people, I am now even more determined to enroll my kids in MMA classes if I ever have any

 

[sgtbaker]

Good for you.

No, good for me would have been dragging my son to the door and making an example of the situation at the right time. I just see a lot of posts about trying to talk to the parents and the parents defend their children. I wouldn't know a solution but I can understand how the parents feel. It feels like an attack on their ability to raise children. It's never comfortable to be confronted with almost a willing ignorance of your own child's behavior.

 

[TragicMonkey]

No, good for me would have been dragging my son to the door and making an example of the situation at the right time. I just see a lot of posts about trying to talk to the parents and the parents defend their children. I wouldn't know a solution but I can understand how the parents feel. It feels like an attack on their ability to raise children. It's never comfortable to be confronted with almost a willing ignorance of your own child's behavior.

On the other hand, sometimes parents are no help at all. When I was six a bully stole a beloved toy from me. I realize now it was just an object, just a stupid toy and not really worth all the emotion I invested in a material object...but as a child I was really attached to that toy.

And my parents decided to do nothing, because it would be socially awkward for them to bring the matter up to the other kid's parents. Better their kid lose his possessions and learn he won't get any help than to be embarrassed.

Since I was a child, of course I didn't have the benefit of my current wisdom, so I didn't know the best recourse would have been to simply beat the snot out of the little bastard, using a weapon of some kind. My parents would have been just as embarrassed, of course, but at least I'd gotten my damn toy back.

 

[sgtbaker]

On the other hand, sometimes parents are no help at all. When I was six a bully stole a beloved toy from me. I realize now it was just an object, just a stupid toy and not really worth all the emotion I invested in a material object...but as a child I was really attached to that toy.

And my parents decided to do nothing, because it would be socially awkward for them to bring the matter up to the other kid's parents. Better their kid lose his possessions and learn he won't get any help than to be embarrassed.

Since I was a child, of course I didn't have the benefit of my current wisdom, so I didn't know the best recourse would have been to simply beat the snot out of the little bastard, using a weapon of some kind. My parents would have been just as embarrassed, of course, but at least I'd gotten my damn toy back.

Ouch! I say go find that toy that the kid stole from you, find the brat who stole it, beat him bloody with it, than send it to your parents with a note attached:

Thanks for teaching me independence, I took care of it myself.

 

[iknownothing]

I didn't know the best recourse would have been to simply beat the snot out of the little bastard, using a weapon of some kind. My parents would have been just as embarrassed, of course, but at least I'd gotten my damn toy back.

I have a friend whose son in kindergarten got his gloves stolen from him. After a few days he punched the kid that did it. His mom was so upset because, she said, she and the teacher were trying to work it out. Obviously her son got tired of waiting, and good for him. I wanted to high five him when she told the story.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, good for me would have been dragging my son to the door and making an example of the situation at the right time.

When I make mistakes in front of my kids I have to remember how great it is for our kids to know that we do make mistakes. More importantly that when I mkae a mistake I go out of my way to correct the mistake and figure out why I made the mistake in the first place. Your child likely learned more form your mistake and follow-up than they would if you had done it all "right" the first time around.

I just see a lot of posts about trying to talk to the parents and the parents defend their children. I wouldn't know a solution but I can understand how the parents feel. It feels like an attack on their ability to raise children.

Yeah, one of those posts was mine and we totally understood the parent's position. Our approach was to not talk about the details of what happened, but instead focus on the future.

Our child has been accused of things we doubt happened, but you have to deal with them like parents, not defense attorneys. It's hard. We aren't' always good at it.

It's never comfortable to be confronted with almost a willing ignorance of your own child's behavior.

True.

 

[Dr. Keith]

And my parents decided to do nothing, because it would be socially awkward for them to bring the matter up to the other kid's parents. Better their kid lose his possessions and learn he won't get any help than to be embarrassed.

What utter BS.

Some "friends" of mine pulled a "joke" on me that included sending an unflattering picture of my then 9 year old daughter out to a bunch of our friends as if it were our Christmas card.* My daughter never saw it. I no longer talk to those involved. I am nice to their kids and their wives, as I see them all the time, but I just nod and move on when I see them.


*"But, Dr. Keith, how could anyone think this was a reasonable joke?" you may ask. Well, the year before they had sent an unflattering picture of me out to a closer group of our friends and it was hilarious. Really quite funny when you combine the fact that we are always late with our holiday cards and my mug is always the least prominent focal point in our family. It was clearly a joke and those that received it knew it was a joke upon opening it. The picture of my daughter was less flattering and went to a far larger group, most of whom were unaware of the prior joke.

 

[Mr.D]

How do you know the bullying was the cause of these problems? I understand that people want to have a cause for all the bad things in their lives but how do you know.

Naturally I speak only about my particular situation, and I'll try to keep it brief.

In the third grade, I was popular, well liked by my classmates and teachers, got good grades participated in class, recess and generally looked forward to going to school.

I changed school systems in the fourth grade, where the bullying began. Over the course of the next three years I :
- Faked headaches constantly to get out of class and avoid going to school
- Had grades so poor that my parents were told that I should technically be held back at the end of each year - but that I tested so highly that the administrators knew that I was learning the material as well or better than anyone else in the class - so they advanced me anyway.
- Attempted during the fifth grade to seriously injure myself.
- ... I could go on and on for a quite a while.

Fortunately for me I got out of that environment into another school in the seventh grade and everything turned back around - My grades improved, I wasn't having those "headaches" anymore and so on.

I've posted elsewhere that by most measures I have pretty good life these days. I have self-confidence issues with women I don't know. Of course sometimes crap happens and usually I deal with it fairly well, but if I'm unusually tired or stressed I go right back to the defensive behaviours of those three bad years - I isolate, internalize anger and have self destructive thoughts.

Can I _prove_ my adult issues have something to do with being bullied? Not in any rigorous scientific sense and probably not to the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard either, but I have yet to hear anyone disagree with my assessment that those three years of being bullied were life-changing and have had effects on the circumstances of my life even today.

ETA: I do not in any way blame all my life's problems on being bullied and I resent the implication - even indirectly - that I do.

 

[MikeMangum]

My take on it is that in current legal climate, a kid who effective deals with bullies is likely to be punished -- quite possibly more than the bully gets punished. It is not an inherent problem, but it currenlty exists.

I told my daughter that if anyone at school hurts her, won't stop hurting her, and she goes to the teachers and nothing is done to protect her, she has my blessing to hit the person back if they are hurting her, but only for the purpose of stopping the person from hurting her. Given all of those conditions above (being attacked, person won't stop, authorities do nothing, only act in self defense) her school still says that she will be punished if she protects herself even meeting all of those conditions.

"Hitting is wrong." Yeah, so is standing there and allowing yourself to be hit.

 

[Mark6]

I told my daughter that if anyone at school hurts her, won't stop hurting her, and she goes to the teachers and nothing is done to protect her, she has my blessing to hit the person back if they are hurting her, but only for the purpose of stopping the person from hurting her. Given all of those conditions above (being attacked, person won't stop, authorities do nothing, only act in self defense) her school still says that she will be punished if she protects herself even meeting all of those conditions.

Tell the school you will bring up criminal charges against whoever is hitting your daughter. Call police, file assault report, everything. Not that the bully will be actually prosecuted, but see how the school likes THAT. And if they give you any nonsense about "zero tolerance policy", tell them you have your own policy: zero tolerance for FELONY behavior.

 

[LibraryLady]

Or you can do what this mother did and go to the media. Believe me, something's being done now.

 

[fuelair]

Ouch! I say go find that toy that the kid stole from you, find the brat who stole it, beat him bloody with it, than send it to your parents with a note attached:

Thanks for teaching me independence, I took care of it myself.

Don't beat him bloody - only enough that he begs you to take the toy back. Don't abuse your abilities, but do use them. Beating to a pulp or other educational activity of that type is when the other has done something that can't be fixed. I try to keep up with the distinction.

 

[fuelair]

What utter BS.

Some "friends" of mine pulled a "joke" on me that included sending an unflattering picture of my then 9 year old daughter out to a bunch of our friends as if it were our Christmas card.* My daughter never saw it. I no longer talk to those involved. I am nice to their kids and their wives, as I see them all the time, but I just nod and move on when I see them.


*"But, Dr. Keith, how could anyone think this was a reasonable joke?" you may ask. Well, the year before they had sent an unflattering picture of me out to a closer group of our friends and it was hilarious. Really quite funny when you combine the fact that we are always late with our holiday cards and my mug is always the least prominent focal point in our family. It was clearly a joke and those that received it knew it was a joke upon opening it. The picture of my daughter was less flattering and went to a far larger group, most of whom were unaware of the prior joke.

And they failed in the really big area - make fun of me all you want - I'm big, smarter than you and I really don't care. Make fun of my kid and you no longer exist. Do it more than once and that will be a literal statement, not merely indicative. (I have no kids, but I like kids. Don't mess with them...)

 

[sgtbaker]

Yeah, one of those posts was mine and we totally understood the parent's position. Our approach was to not talk about the details of what happened, but instead focus on the future.

If, in any way, I made it sound like I was defending the parents, or saying a parent is unjust when confronting the parent of an aggressive child, my apologies. I was just noting my familiarity with being on that side of it. I wonder if a lot of parents feel that same sense of, "why in the world am I defending my child when he/she is clearly wrong. The woman that came to me was polite and soft spoken and was in no way waving her finger in my face. I even wonder if my reaction would have been different if she came raving like a mad person. Maybe then I would have taken the moral highground just to disarm her. Who knows? I do know it's got to be aweful when you are attempting to resolve a situation, diplomatically and you end up dealing with an idiot.

 

[cathmurphy]

Want to hear a secret?

Thank you for your honesty SgtBaker. It's refreshing.

Want to hear a secret?

I bullied. My children have bullied.

Want to hear more?

I was bullied. My children have been bullied.

Life doesn't divide neatly into good and bad, black and white. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't.

 

[samanthakayee]

I think for the most part most of the teachers at my high school was on an ego trip and painfuly into Heterosexism.
The hatred, hostility, disapproval and prejudice towards homosexual people made my life hell. I was the most hated kid in school. When I say that I mean that on the first day of classes I had more then once a kid lean over to me and tell me all about that Espen chick. (they would post a list on the first day on the door of who is in the class) It was an odd feeling for me to then have to put my hand up and say here seconds latter.
I had my pants pulled down by a group of rednecks in a stairwell to see if I had a penis. Someone got this grand idea that being Bi ment that I was both a man and a woman. I ran into the office crying and in a panic. They made my dad pay for me to go to a child Psychologist to learn to deal with other kids. After they found out I was in fact 100% girl I was told a few times that I just needed a good F*** to cure me of liking girls too.
If I had to wake up tomorrow and be back in high school I do not think I could do it again without dropping out. I used to daydream about shooting up the place and understood all the school shootings.
I had more then one teacher inform me that is was ok that people was beating me up since I chose to be Bi. I just feel bad for the kids who have to still deal with the teachers I had that are bi or gay. I only got out of high school in 1996 so I am sure a few are still around.

I was not a open gay kid running around with shirts with rainbows on or anything like that. I told one kid in 9th grade that I also liked girls. I felt she was a good friend at the time and could open up to her. The very next day the whole school found out about it.

I have to say I did get great enjoyment looking over the myspace page for my school that a few of the jerks did die.

 

[Morrigan]

In my first year of junior high (7th grade), a few months after getting beaten up - I was getting my lunch money out of my locker, and two 9th grade boys reached around me to steal my money. I grabbed each arm with my hands, dug in my not-too-long, but still long-enough nails, and starting spinning. I spun around like a top and when I let go of each arm, the boy attached to it hit a pole and fell to the ground. These were two tall, big 15-year-olds, and I was a very short, chubby 12-year-old. The two boys ran to a teacher and told her I had beaten them up. She looked at them. She looked at me. She laughed for a really long time and told the boys to get lost. They never bothered me again. In fact, nobody bothered me again. Word had gotten around.

I learned that if you confront one bully, all the others will back off - permanently.

Great story. And you're absolutely right.

My brother had a similar one. He was a small boy as a teen, and worse, our father was a principal at this high school, so he got picked on a lot and also endured some physical abuse, though nothing quite as serious as all the beatings described in this thread (as far as I know), always by the same group of boys. Of course, he was a victim purely on the fact that he was small, quiet, and was the principal's son, but then again, when did bullies ever need a reason to bully someone?

One day, he encountered one of those boys, who happened to be alone. Strangely, that boy didn't bully him when he wasn't with his gang. This happened a few times until one day the boy decided he could probably get away with bullying my brother without his gang, too, and so he tried. Since he was alone, though, my brother, though smaller than him, decided it was time to defend himself, and grabbed the kid and shoved him in the wall. After a punch or two in the belly, he told the boy to leave him the hell alone. My brother said he vividly recalls the kid's shocked surprise; I guess he never expected the smaller kid to fight back. He wasn't bullied since. He considers himself lucky to have been able to fight back, since most bullies always stick together as group.


As for me... I can't say I've ever really been bullied. Picked on a lot, yes, was very unpopular, but verbal assaults never made any impression on me since I had endured far worse from my two older brothers growing up and the taunts I gave back were usually sharper than they'd expect. The only times I was physically bullied was in elementary school; once, a boy kept teasing me, so I teased him back, and apparently he didn't like that so he threw a snowball to my face. Only that snowball hurt like hell, because it was actually a ball of frozen ice covered in a bit of snow. When my brother (the same as earlier -- keep in mind he's 8 years older than me ) asked about the bruise, he told me that if that kid ever tried to hurt me again, to tell him right away and he'd beat the crap out of him. Luckily (for me and for that kid), it never happened haha.
And the other time was by this insane and violent girl who bullied -everyone-. She was a very troubled child, come to think of it, probably endured a lot of abuse at home.... She was stronger than your average boy and picked fights with everyone. She once elbowed a boy (not a small one, too, an athletic kid, at least for elementary school) so bad in the back that they had to call an ambulance. I knew to avoid her, but somehow I encountered her once, not sure what the circumstances were. All she did was lift me by the collar and stick me against the wall (my legs were dangling, I was a very short girl in elementary school but she was freakishly strong for a 10 year old girl or so), uttering threats, then she thankfully released me and I never encountered her again.

I'm not sure if I could really call this girl a bully, since I don't think (to my vague recollection) she'd single out someone as a long-term target. I actually kind of feel sorry for her, unlike most bullies like the kids who bullied my brother and those described in this thread.