Be a good little atheist...

One thing that I found somewhat irritating, is that he made the statement that atheism is a belief system.

Mostly what I got from the article is both groups use poor tactics and, few people are going to change their minds.

I don't know about system, but atheism in either form (strong or weak) is a belief about the reality.
 
I mean, you can pull that pedantic "in the name of" thing for number 1

I hope so, the statement means nothing without that part.

. . . but if you disagree with 2 (both sides believe what they're saying) . . .

Completely disagree. Talk to a religious person, it is easy to see they don't believe it. The next time the say the bible is god's word and needs to be adhered to, ask them about killing their children when they disobey. They don't believe that at all.

The trouble is, they don't examine what they are saying and the implications of it.

. . . and 3 (in everyday life, you're not all that different) I don't think you're being reasonable.

No, we are fundamentally different in how we view the world. I find it funny that the author uses the example of theists and atheists getting their transmissions fixed in the same manner without realizing the implications that has for #2.

Some things we are diametrically opposed on:

1) How governments should be run. They laws based on their religion, I don't.
2) How healthcare is decided. They want to stop stem cell research based on their religious beliefs, I don't.
3) How society works. They want society to reflect their religion, I don't.

There are many more but I have a movie to go to so I will stop at these main points.
 
I don't know about system, but atheism in either form (strong or weak) is a belief about the reality.

Not really. It maybe a belief that there is no god but the belief part is very small in that the rest is evidence based, only the doubt part is belief.

The confusion comes when a religious person who has all the real beliefs, that is, things they believe without any evidence starts spouting all the things about their god.

God is great.
God is good
The bible is god's law.
God flooded the Earth.
Etc.

An atheists response is simply, "No."

Now, it may appear that an atheist has all these beliefs, this system of beliefs, about their god but he doesn't. All the rest is simply an extension of the same single belief that there is no god. God doesn't exist so he is not great, good, give you laws, or flood the Earth.

The atheist "system" has only one belief.
 
<snipped to get to this last part>

Some things we are diametrically opposed on:

1) How governments should be run. They laws based on their religion, I don't.
2) How healthcare is decided. They want to stop stem cell research based on their religious beliefs, I don't.
3) How society works. They want society to reflect their religion, I don't.

There are many more but I have a movie to go to so I will stop at these main points.

So there is conflict and I heartily agree there are many points like these. But then I look at the country (USA) that has resulted, which policies are in play and which not, and I am fairly satisfied that the war is being won.

I'd also like to add that the entirety of the Christian canon isn't antithetical to my own sense of right and wrong, even though I do not share the "God authored" bit.

Enjoy your movie.
 
I don't know about system, but atheism in either form (strong or weak) is a belief about the reality.

Atheism is not a belief system.

It is a recognition of evidence. One of the problems I have in explaining this to Christians especially is that they use the word "God" to talk about the deity they worship. Christians worship Yhwh. That is not the same thing as a mysterious unknowable God.

What happens in a discussion about belief with Christians is that they often move the goal posts.

The god you believe in is called Yhwh. This God is no more real than Zeus. The "evidence" that most people use to justify belief in Yhwh, would by extension be the same evidence that would justify belief is Shiva, Zeus or one of the many thousands of gods in human history.

When you discuss "belief" with a Christian they are really trying to justify belief in Yhwh.

This God is clearly "not real." There's no disputing this fact. However if you point this out Christians tend to try to talk about the mysterious and unknowable transcendent "god." It's not the same thing at all.

I do not believe in Yhwh or any of the other Gods in human history because it is obvious that they are mythical characters.

I am a strong atheist towards Yhwh. He certainly is a mythical character.
 
One thing that I found somewhat irritating, is that he made the statement that atheism is a belief system.

Mostly what I got from the article is both groups use poor tactics and, few people are going to change their minds.
I don't want to drift too far off topic. That said, I don't think anyone should think such an article applies to all theists or all atheists.

I'm totally confident that theists are wrong. That puts one in an awkward position. You can be polite toward theists, but you cannot in reality, respect their point of view like you might if you were debating a physician with a different opinion, for example.

Some theists, OTOH, not only have a belief in a god(s), they also have a built in defense of a false belief mechanism. Those trying to convert said theist to atheism are not only wrong, they are part of the Devil's plan to tempt the theist. So atheists are evil.

Now many theists of course, don't see it that way. They see it as people who simply disagree. And many atheists are really agnostic and they don't view theists as necessarily unquestionably wrong.

The point I am making is that many people on both sides have a true conflict with those on the other side. It is not a simple matter of accepting that everyone in the world has not come to the same conclusions about the existence of gods.

The article I linked to had some valid points. But each individual would need to apply those points to their own position.
 
Talk to a religious person, it is easy to see they don't believe it. The next time the say the bible is god's word and needs to be adhered to, ask them about killing their children when they disobey. They don't believe that at all.

The trouble is, they don't examine what they are saying and the implications of it.
As I say, you're not being reasonable.

You're insisting "If someone believes A, they must also believe B. If they say they don't believe B, they can't really believe A either." In fact, all your example shows is that people can have inconsistent and even conflicting beliefs. I'm sure you have some yourself, which you've also found a way to rationalize.

No, we are fundamentally different in how we view the world. I find it funny that the author uses the example of theists and atheists getting their transmissions fixed in the same manner without realizing the implications that has for #2.
It doesn't have any implications for #2, except there's maybe something else you'd consider inconsistent.

Some things we are diametrically opposed on:

1) How governments should be run. They laws based on their religion, I don't.
2) How healthcare is decided. They want to stop stem cell research based on their religious beliefs, I don't.
3) How society works. They want society to reflect their religion, I don't.

There are many more but I have a movie to go to so I will stop at these main points.
None of your 3 points have very much to do with day-to-day life.

1. You're wrong. Their religion would make blasphemy a crime, but it isn't, even though they outnumber us 20 to 1. And you want murder to be illegal, just as their religion prescribes.

2. Stem cell research little to do with everyday life.

3. You're just repeating yourself; see #1.

In daily life, you drive to work, buy and consume food, go to movies, surf the internet, JUST LIKE THEM. You're focusing on some differences which may be important to you, but they're not things you concern yourself with as you go about the daily business of living.
 
As I say, you're not being reasonable.

You're insisting "If someone believes A, they must also believe B. If they say they don't believe B, they can't really believe A either." In fact, all your example shows is that people can have inconsistent and even conflicting beliefs. I'm sure you have some yourself, which you've also found a way to rationalize.

That's like saying Paul Bernardo didn't believe young girls should be raped and killed because he once denied doing just that.

Your argument is vacuous. Yes, people can hold conflicting beliefs and religions are especially good at promoting that but the litmus test is in how a theist deals with the conflict when they are made to. When the inconsistency is pointed out they are forced to think about it and they know both can't be true. They know at least one is wrong but refuse to face it. That's where the anger and hostility we see comes from. They can't and don't believe both. They simply don't examine their beliefs.

It doesn't have any implications for #2, except there's maybe something else you'd consider inconsistent.

Oh, no. It has implications for #2 unless you think science really is the work of the devil. It is the same as the theists who come to the JREF and tell via a computer, hooked up to an internet, that science doesn't work and is really a tool of the devil used to turn unsuspecting theists towards Satanic cults where their children will be sacrificed on an alter at midnight under a full moon.

None of your 3 points have very much to do with day-to-day life.

Really. What fantasy land do you live in?

1. You're wrong. Their religion would make blasphemy a crime, but it isn't, even though they outnumber us 20 to 1.

That proves my point and is exactly what I said. The fact that blasphemy isn't a law is irrelevent. You will never hear me call for it to be one and yet you will hear many theists calling for it. Fundamental difference right there.

And you want murder to be illegal, just as their religion prescribes.

Well, we have changed the definition of murder quite a bit. Murder was only illegal if it was done to one of their own kind. Killing a non-jew was punishable by a small fine. You can fine many examples of murder being held up as righteous in many religious texts. In fact, most of those texts call for the death of non-believers which is another point I disagree with theists on.

2. Stem cell research little to do with everyday life.

Tell that to the people who have had their live transformed by it. Tell it to my niece.

3. You're just repeating yourself; see #1.

No, 1 and 3 are different although 1 is part of 3.

In daily life, you drive to work, buy and consume food, go to movies, surf the internet, JUST LIKE THEM. You're focusing on some differences which may be important to you, but they're not things you concern yourself with as you go about the daily business of living.

Really? I have had to concern myself with laws infinitely more often than I have had to have a transmission repaired. Infinitely because I have never had a transmission repaired while I have had to deal with laws innumerable times.

What you and the author are saying is that all the trivial things in life, theists and atheists do the same so I should learn to love theists but the fact that they held up stem cell research and procedures that could save my niece's life and immensely improve the quality of that life, well that's just unimportant ****.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with you and the author.
 
And yet many Christians accept evolution theory so I don't buy your assessment it is "most Christians".

No, those "many Christians" accept a sick parody of evolution where "God" uses his magic to affect random mutation/natural selection to create life, more specifically, us.

The second you introduce "God" and his magic, it is no longer evolution.
 
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Who doesn't want to look at the evidence? I'm happy to look at evidence, and readily acknowledge that discrimination exists.

That discrimination is nowhere near as severe in its effects nor as pervasive in its practice as the discrimination against black people in the 1950s, and no one without an inflated persecution complex would attempt to pretend that it was. Even though isolated and sometimes egregious acts of discrimination against atheists can be cited, and the Boy Scouts and the military are still forces for systematic discrimination against both gays and atheists, atheists today do by and large enjoy equal rights under the law. The same Constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion that protects the rights of Baptists and Quakers secures the rights of atheists as well.

From what I've seen of the self-styled atheist activists in this thread, the goal is not equal treatment anyway. Who, other than a snarling misanthrope completely devoid of social skills, would think that equal treatment would be encouraged by characterizing the religious majority as stupid and evil? Martin Luther King didn't sneer "White people are my bitch" from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Gay activists didn't erect billboards saying "Heterosexuality enslaves genitalia."

Rather than trying to fight discrimination, they seem to be in a war with religion itself, employing tactics which seem deliberately calculated to alienate as many potential allies as possible among the religious majority. I can understand how those who won the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people with arrogant abrasiveness and smug superiority might be reluctant to abandon such tactics. After all, they were smashingly successful in the 70s. Still, I can't shake this nagging feeling that there just might be a better way.

The hilited phrase is the problem.
 
Not really. It maybe a belief that there is no god but the belief part is very small in that the rest is evidence based, only the doubt part is belief.

Actually , there are those atheist which says "there is no evidence of gods, so unless you provide evidence I see no reason to believe in it". CI can't be bothered to look up what type of atheism it is, but it is clearly and definitively an a3theism which require *NO* belief whatsoever, as it starts from zero, and require evidence to believe in anything more than that.

In other word it proceeed just like anybody would for any other mythical entity, like gods, faery, kobold and unicorn. Show me the evidence.
 
Bokono, if really theist did not have such a LARGE sway in politic, then we would not be seeing the mariage and civil union as we saw in the US or many other country. If really theist did not have such a sway, then gay mariage would have been a reality, or eveything would be a civil union in the eye of the law.

But this is not the case. In many part of the US, or the world, gay have lower right and can only go into civil union, whereas "maried" hetero get more rights. And you see theist defending their right to have that much sway in unequality before law. To the point they want to pass law recognizing the monogamous heterosxual union only as mariage.

And that to me is a clear sign that the law , at least in the US, isn't as secular as it pretend.

Mariage should be reserved for church, and entail *NO* different right than not church maried couple. Civil union or civil mariage should octroy the exact same right to couple, be it f/f, m/f, or m/m. It is not the job of the law to descreminate between the gender of the civily married couple.

But yet we are in that discreminatory situation.

So why are you saying the fight is by large won ? It isn't. Theist are fighting on all front , and sometimes have defeat, and sometimes major victory, but the fight ain't over.

Also : call me when an outspoken atheist president will be elected and we can talk. Untiln then all i see is candidate which outdo each otehr at affirming their christian profession.
 
<snip>

1. You're wrong. Their religion would make blasphemy a crime, but it isn't, even though they outnumber us 20 to 1.

<snip>


That doesn't have a thing to do with the ratio between believers and atheists. Its got to do with the ratios between believers and other believers. The 'separation of church and state' thing was to protect different believers from each other. Non-believers barely even registered.

Remember, one of the things that got the Puritans all hot and bothered was the English Book of Common Prayer, even though they'd cheerfully hang someone for being a Quaker. Catholics needed their own colony so they had a place to take refuge from oppression. Jehovah's Witnesses had to go to court to keep from having to "swear to God" in court. Even more recently Baptists were among the strongest supporters of the early efforts to keep mandatory prayer out of schools, because they weren't mainstream at the time. They were uncomfortable about whose prayer would get used. They changed their tune when they started gaining relative strength of numbers and were less worried about that.

Nothing will unite God Botherers more quickly than their mutual antipathy for atheists. They have a tendency to agree that even if your superstitions are going to send you to Hell, and mine aren't, that other guy who thinks we're both weak-minded deserves some special persecution.

Protections for atheists are a sort of unfortunate side effect of religious tolerance to many believers. Whenever they can figure out a way to tease the two apart they will try ... and the results are often not pretty. I think one of the biggest sources of discord on the subject is that non-believers are even given a voice in the discussion at all. It's one thing to argue about whether one superstition is more right than another one, but the weirdos with no superstitions to argue for need to butt out and shut up.
 
No, those "many Christians" accept a sick parody of evolution where "God" uses his magic to affect random mutation/natural selection to create life, more specifically, us.

The second you introduce "God" and his magic, it is no longer evolution.
You are preaching to the choir, but the discussion was about the reaction to the Darwin fish symbol, not how one believes in a magic sky daddy and deals with the cognitive dissonance of science. Do also keep in mind there are a number of theists who consider themselves to otherwise be skeptics. I don't think they all fit the picture you've described.
 
That's like saying Paul Bernardo didn't believe young girls should be raped and killed because he once denied doing just that.
No. What you offer here is not an instance of someone holding conflicting beliefs, but an instance of someone lying.

That's where the anger and hostility we see comes from. They can't and don't believe both. They simply don't examine their beliefs.
You may be right about this being a source of anger, but you're wrong when you say "They can't and don't believe both." Clearly, in many cases, they do, however inconsistent that seems to you. Some may be merely paying lip service to one or the other conflicting belief, but most can rationalize a sincere belief that "The Bible is true" and "killing disobedient children is something we shouldn't do."

Oh, no. It has implications for #2 unless you think science really is the work of the devil. It is the same as the theists who come to the JREF and tell via a computer, hooked up to an internet, that science doesn't work and is really a tool of the devil used to turn unsuspecting theists towards Satanic cults where their children will be sacrificed on an alter at midnight under a full moon.
The notion that most religious people are "anti-science" is a cartoon stereotype. Apparently, this is one example of a case in which YOU hold inconsistent beliefs which you are unwilling to examine: you know that most religious people use computers and get their transmissions fixed by mechanics, yet you insist on the truth of this fictional version of reality in which they don't.

That proves my point and is exactly what I said. The fact that blasphemy isn't a law is irrelevent. You will never hear me call for it to be one and yet you will hear many theists calling for it. Fundamental difference right there.
They outnumber us 20 to 1. The fact that some insignificant minority would like to see a law against blasphemy doesn't change anything -- if MOST theists wanted it, it WOULD be a law. The Constitution would be amended, if necessary, and people would be fined and possibly arrested for blasphemy. Since that hasn't happened, the logical conclusion is that MOST theists in this country share your opinion that it SHOULDN'T be illegal.

In fact, most of those texts call for the death of non-believers which is another point I disagree with theists on.
Again, most theists agree with you, which is why the law protects rather than executing non-believers. And again, you refuse to confront your own inconsistent beliefs ("theists believe non-believers should be killed" / "killing non-believers is illegal in a country which is mostly theist").

What you and the author are saying is that all the trivial things in life, theists and atheists do the same so I should learn to love theists but the fact that they held up stem cell research and procedures that could save my niece's life and immensely improve the quality of that life, well that's just unimportant ****.
Stem cell research continued unimpeded in South America, Mexico, Canada, Europe, and Asia, and while restricted in the United States, continued here as well with government funding for existing embryonic stem cell lines and non-embryonic stem cells, and private funding for everything. The fact that the medical advance you hope for has not happened yet may or may not be due to theist interference. There is really no way to know, since there is no way to know at this point whether the hypothetical advance is even possible.

Unless you yourself are engaged in embryonic stem cell research, your day to day life didn't change because of that policy change. What you call "the trivial things" represent the vast majority of how both you and the theists spend most of the most precious resource you have.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with you and the author.
Which is why you're not being reasonable.
 
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