Be a good little atheist...

bokonon said:
It's hard to imagine any other goal for slogans like "Religion is my bitch" or "All religion is a scam." Can you seriously imagine that such sentiments would make a religious person feel more tolerant toward members of the group expressing them?
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They've been sooooo tolerant to date. We wouldn't want to spoil that lovely harmony, would we. Be a good atheist.
 
MontagK505 said:
I agree, the meaning of the two signs are categorically different. But would the reactions of onlookers be categorically different?

Most Christians see the Darwin Fish as a statement of atheistic belief. A statement of disbelief in the Tooth Fairy would require more thought but it implies the same thing. If you added a list of gods to the Tooth Fairy it would be more obvious.
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And yet many Christians accept evolution theory so I don't buy your assessment it is "most Christians".

OTOH, I know what you are getting at and I've thought about it earlier in the thread. Why hijack a symbol already in use if not to specifically comment on the people already using it? The reason, I think was timing and circumstance. The emergence of feet on the Jesus fish correlated with an increase in Evangelicals pushing to have Creation beliefs compete with evolution theory in the field of science.

So feet on the Jesus fish and all the takeoffs from it began as a comment on evolution theory vs Creation myths being pushed by the same Evangelicals who initiated use of the Jesus fish, not from any atheist commenting on theists. I think the dead Jesus fish symbol would have been more specific to an atheism message than an evolving fish.
 
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quadraginta said:
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So the chances of getting your car's paint job keyed are probably less, but you shouldn't be surprised if you found yourself the victim of a vicious crayoning.
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You misjudge the nature of the 'God is Love' group. If I recall, someone on the forum had their Darwin fish removed. While I don't recall any additional vandalism, one need merely visit the Freepers forums to get an example of the nature I speak of.
 
quadraginta said:
I suspect that the average fundie would need too much time to puzzle out the implications. The car would be moved somewhere else by the time they got outraged.
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The "average fundie" knows what a Darwin fish is, and what it's supposed to represent: a positive statement on evolution. I base this claim on my years as a fundie, and the knowledge that all my peers, and all the adults with whom I had interaction, knew who Darwin was, and what he was famous for.

So the chances of getting your car's paint job keyed are probably less, but you shouldn't be surprised if you found yourself the victim of a vicious crayoning.
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I would think it far more likely that an adult in a parking lot has a key on him/her, rather than a pack of crayons.
 
bokonon said:
Who doesn't want to look at the evidence? I'm happy to look at evidence, and readily acknowledge that discrimination exists.

That discrimination is nowhere near as severe in its effects nor as pervasive in its practice as the discrimination against black people in the 1950s, and no one without an inflated persecution complex would attempt to pretend that it was. Even though isolated and sometimes egregious acts of discrimination against atheists can be cited, and the Boy Scouts and the military are still forces for systematic discrimination against both gays and atheists, atheists today do by and large enjoy equal rights under the law. The same Constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion that protects the rights of Baptists and Quakers secures the rights of atheists as well.

From what I've seen of the self-styled atheist activists in this thread, the goal is not equal treatment anyway. Who, other than a snarling misanthrope completely devoid of social skills, would think that equal treatment would be encouraged by characterizing the religious majority as stupid and evil? Martin Luther King didn't sneer "White people are my bitch" from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Gay activists didn't erect billboards saying "Heterosexuality enslaves genitalia."

Rather than trying to fight discrimination, they seem to be in a war with religion itself, employing tactics which seem deliberately calculated to alienate as many potential allies as possible among the religious majority. I can understand how those who won the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people with arrogant abrasiveness and smug superiority might be reluctant to abandon such tactics. After all, they were smashingly successful in the 70s. Still, I can't shake this nagging feeling that there just might be a better way.
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OK, so the goal post which moved earlier in the thread has moved back a teensy bit. It's now a disagreement on the degree of discrimination, and not whether discrimination exists.

You mention bigotry against blacks in the past. No doubt you are aware the worst of the discrimination was in the South. The worst discrimination against atheists similarly varies by location. There's little trouble here in the NW, though I truly cannot put that Darwin fish on my car so the discrimination is more subtle but not absent. You also have to recognize, if I were black, I could not hide it. Atheism is not so visible unless I choose to make it so.

But if you go back and look at the CNN news video, places where people resent having prayer and other forms of Christian worship removed from their children's schools have reacted quite viscously to atheists the Christians view as the cause. And if you pay attention to the more extreme 'Red Neck' Christians like those on the Freeper web page, you'll see more violent reactions to those uppity atheists. I should note, however, long ago some of the most violent content was banned from the Freeper site because they became worried about the consequences of letting posts stay up that talked too blatantly about "Second Amendment remedies" and the like. If you speak of a desire for a physically bad outcome, the posts are removed.


As for the activism you describe, that is what amounts to a tiny minority of atheists. Most people try to address specifics when complaining about religions and theists. Unfortunately, asserting one's right not to have Christian exposure be prevalent at one's children's school is very often seen in the same light as your description of atheists.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
You misjudge the nature of the 'God is Love' group. If I recall, someone on the forum had their Darwin fish removed. While I don't recall any additional vandalism, one need merely visit the Freepers forums to get an example of the nature I speak of.
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I was talking about dissing the Tooth Fairy, SG. I know what a Darwin fish can 'net' you. I've lived in the Carolinas for over thirty years.

I didn't even need to buy one. It came gratis with a used car I purchased. Some unknown benefactor was kind enough to help me remove it.

I wished they had asked me first, though. I would have offered better tools. They seemed to have used something very much like a tire iron ... and not very carefully, either.
 
Aw, ****, I thought you were talking about a Darwin fish, Quad, not the tooth fairy bumper sticker. My bad.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And yet many Christians accept evolution theory so I don't buy your assessment it is "most Christians".

OTOH, I know what you are getting at and I've thought about it earlier in the thread. Why hijack a symbol already in use if not to specifically comment on the people already using it? The reason, I think was timing and circumstance. The emergence of feet on the Jesus fish correlated with an increase in Evangelicals pushing to have Creation beliefs compete with evolution theory in the field of science.

So feet on the Jesus fish and all the takeoffs from it began as a comment on evolution theory vs Creation myths being pushed by the same Evangelicals who initiated use of the Jesus fish, not from any atheist commenting on theists. I think the dead Jesus fish symbol would have been more specific to an atheism message than an evolving fish.
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Many Christian's who accept the TOE may still regard the display of the Darwin Fish as a symbol of atheism. This doesn't mean they would key your car or try to remove it.
 
MontagK505 said:
Many Christian's who accept the TOE may still regard the display of the Darwin Fish as a symbol of atheism. This doesn't mean they would key your car or try to remove it.
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It doesn't mean they wouldn't, either. It depends on the individual.
 
slingblade said:
quadraginta said:
I suspect that the average fundie would need too much time to puzzle out the implications. The car would be moved somewhere else by the time they got outraged.
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The "average fundie" knows what a Darwin fish is, and what it's supposed to represent: a positive statement on evolution. I base this claim on my years as a fundie, and the knowledge that all my peers, and all the adults with whom I had interaction, knew who Darwin was, and what he was famous for.

So the chances of getting your car's paint job keyed are probably less, but you shouldn't be surprised if you found yourself the victim of a vicious crayoning.
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I would think it far more likely that an adult in a parking lot has a key on him/her, rather than a pack of crayons.
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"TOOTH FAIRY"!!!

I was responding to a line about the "tooth fairy"!

This one ...

MontagK505 said:
I agree, the meaning of the two signs are categorically different. But would the reactions of onlookers be categorically different?

Most Christians see the Darwin Fish as a statement of atheistic belief. A statement of disbelief in the Tooth Fairy would require more thought but it implies the same thing. If you added a list of gods to the Tooth Fairy it would be more obvious.
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Get it? Outraged preschoolers protesting with crayons? While their parents miss the implications?

Jeesh. :boggled:

I know it wasn't one of the most inspired quips, but it wasn't so impenetrable that it should need to be explained.

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... twice.

Especially to you. I can understand SG not paying attention. You're usually quicker on the uptake.

Believe me, I'm all too familiar with what fundies know, don't know, and think they know. Not just because of growing up and living in the Bible Belt, either, although that didn't hurt. My mother and both my sisters abandoned a perfectly harmless, maybe even progressive Episcopal Church and fell under the sway of a rather charismatic Church of God lunatic "pastor", at least until they discovered he was both a letch and a pedophile.

(I'd still like to know if his last name was really "Moses".)
 
quadraginta said:
Get it? Outraged preschoolers protesting with crayons? While their parents miss the implications?

Jeesh. :boggled:

I know it wasn't one of the most inspired quips, but it wasn't so impenetrable that it should need to be explained.

...

... twice.
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For what it's worth, I actually laughed out loud when I read your original post. The image of irate preschoolers was great. :D
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
This seemed worth sharing:

10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
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Thank you. It's too reasonable to change many minds, apparently, but I agree with just about everything he says. Kind of depressing to read the comments that come after ("you're wrong, MY SIDE is pure rational unadulterated TRUTH, so if that's OFFENSIVE then TOO BAD"), but even that letdown was offset by the "Jesus Christ is a Lion -- GET IN THE CAR!!!" poster that I hadn't seen before.

I do think, in spite of the comments, that most people DO agree, and it's just the hard-core factions that are doing most of the posting (and making disproportionate noise IRL).

Thanks again.
 
bokonon said:
I do think, in spite of the comments, that most people DO agree, and it's just the hard-core factions that are doing most of the posting (and making disproportionate noise IRL).
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I think the comments are pretty indicative of what people think about the article.
 
MontagK505 said:
Many Christian's who accept the TOE may still regard the display of the Darwin Fish as a symbol of atheism. This doesn't mean they would key your car or try to remove it.
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You think I've said all Christians would do that? Don't be silly.
 
qayak said:
I think the comments are pretty indicative of what people think about the article.
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I think the comments are indicative of what people who disagree and therefore feel the need to comment think about the article.

I mean, you can pull that pedantic "in the name of" thing for number 1, but if you disagree with 2 (both sides believe what they're saying) and 3 (in everyday life, you're not all that different) I don't think you're being reasonable.
 
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