Be a good little atheist...

Bokonon, you're just stirring this issue up. You should be trying to keep it quiet and submissive. Perhaps if you did that we'd all get along and everything would be find. This aggressive passivism of your isn't helping at all.
 
the fight ain't over.
No, it isn't.

The victories won by black people in the civil rights movement came in spite of, not because of, the childish posturing of groups like the Symbionese Liberation Army and the Nation of Islam.

The same will be true in this fight. Future victories will mostly be won by the efforts of "good atheists" and "good theists" who listen respectfully to what the other side is saying rather than rejecting them as devils or fools.
 
No, it isn't.

The victories won by black people in the civil rights movement came in spite of, not because of, the childish posturing of groups like the Symbionese Liberation Army and the Nation of Islam.

The same will be true in this fight. Future victories will mostly be won by the efforts of "good atheists" and "good theists" who listen respectfully to what the other side is saying rather than rejecting them as devils or fools.

Ah, it's kind of you to read the future for us. Arrogant to dismiss any viewpoint but your own as being evil, however.
 
Ah, it's kind of you to read the future for us. Arrogant to dismiss any viewpoint but your own as being evil, however.
I don't dismiss your viewpoint as evil, but I regard it as childish and counterproductive.
 

Yes. Weak atheism (agnosticism) is a belief that the evidence is such that reality may or may not include God(s).

Strong atheism is a belief that reality is such that there are no God(s).

ETA: Necessarily, if you believe a proposition is false (e.g., "God exists"), then you believe the negation of that proposition is true (e.g., "it's not the case God exists").
 
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No, it isn't.

The victories won by black people in the civil rights movement came in spite of, not because of, the childish posturing of groups like the Symbionese Liberation Army and the Nation of Islam.

The same will be true in this fight. Future victories will mostly be won by the efforts of "good atheists" and "good theists" who listen respectfully to what the other side is saying rather than rejecting them as devils or fools.


I generally agree with you on most things, but with this I disagree. I do not like to promote aggressive dissent and have argued against it in some contexts, but I think that social movements occur in a complex way.

I think the civil rights movement needed Booker T. Washington and WEB DuBois, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.

Same here. Madeline Murray O'Hare, PZ Meyer and Christopher Hitchens have as much a role to play as the polite folk.
 
Yes. Weak atheism (agnosticism) is a belief that the evidence is such that reality may or may not include God(s).

Strong atheism is a belief that reality is such that there are no God(s).

ETA: Necessarily, if you believe a proposition is false (e.g., "God exists"), then you believe the negation of that proposition is true (e.g., "it's not the case God exists").

Horse pucky. Atheism is a skeptical position about peoples claims that gods exist.
 
Yes. Weak atheism (agnosticism) is a belief that the evidence is such that reality may or may not include God(s).

Strong atheism is a belief that reality is such that there are no God(s).

ETA: Necessarily, if you believe a proposition is false (e.g., "God exists"), then you believe the negation of that proposition is true (e.g., "it's not the case God exists").

So it's impossible to not believe something?

Because the negation of something is something?

Word play.:rolleyes:
 

No, what you're saying makes no logical sense. You are implying that there is no such thing as doubt. That when it comes to claims, people actively believe the claim or actively believe an opposite claim.
 
ftfy is not an argument.

Once more: So its impossible to not believe in something?

And the negation of something is something?

That's like saying, "this statement is false." is true.
 
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So, fairly, I'd like to amend my earlier statement:

Pushing one's belief makes you a jerk

For the pedantic: YES that includes philosophies like atheism.

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Does that include teaching critical thinking skills to kids who have been indoctrinated with god beliefs and the critical thinking conflicts with that established belief?

Does it apply to teaching evolution theory and stating clearly there are no valid competing theories (which is true)?
 
Horse pucky. Atheism is a skeptical position about peoples claims that gods exist.

The argument you are having is about the definition of belief. It's a waste of time. You would do better to argue about the actual difference, rather than the use of the term, belief, because you might find you actually do agree there. Or, if you don't agree, at least the reasoning will be on some actual basis rather than on the definition of a word with multiple meanings.


Just my opinion.
 
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Does that include teaching critical thinking skills to kids who have been indoctrinated with god beliefs and the critical thinking conflicts with that established belief?

Does it apply to teaching evolution theory and stating clearly there are no valid competing theories (which is true)?

I'd say yes and yes -- as long as the context was appropriate. Or, if you are as skilled as Mr. Hitchens, then go for it in any context you like.
 
Some may be merely paying lip service to one or the other conflicting belief, but most can rationalize a sincere belief that "The Bible is true" and "killing disobedient children is something we shouldn't do."

Well, there goes the authors claim. Thanks for at least admitting it.

You cannot claim anything about a person uttering teo inconsistent statements until you ask them about them and get clarification. Many mistakes are made in casual conversation and you can't hold someone to them without getting clarification. Like I said, the inconsistencies are bourne out under examination and it becomes obvious that the theist in question doesn't believe both statements but cannot back down. When asked they always use statements that start, "No, but . . ."

The notion that most religious people are "anti-science" is a cartoon stereotype. Apparently, this is one example of a case in which YOU hold inconsistent beliefs which you are unwilling to examine: you know that most religious people use computers and get their transmissions fixed by mechanics, yet you insist on the truth of this fictional version of reality in which they don't.

No, not at all. What I know is that they can't believe science doesn't work and is only meant to lead good theists to the dark side because they, and all other theists, use the benefits of science. The inconsistency is not mine, it's theirs.

The implication for number 2 is that theists don't really believe what they say and more evidence the author is wrong.

They outnumber us 20 to 1. The fact that some insignificant minority would like to see a law against blasphemy doesn't change anything -- if MOST theists wanted it, it WOULD be a law. The Constitution would be amended, if necessary, and people would be fined and possibly arrested for blasphemy. Since that hasn't happened, the logical conclusion is that MOST theists in this country share your opinion that it SHOULDN'T be illegal.

That they even call for it is enough. That they want the Constitution interpreted within the framework of their religion is further proof that there is a fundamental difference between the way they think and the way I think.

Again, most theists agree with you, which is why the law protects rather than executing non-believers. And again, you refuse to confront your own inconsistent beliefs ("theists believe non-believers should be killed" / "killing non-believers is illegal in a country which is mostly theist").

That isn't an inconsistent belief. You are not looking at what I want as opposed to what they want. In order for your claim to be true, you have to show that theists and atheists all want the laws exactly as written. Let's face it, they don't. Take abortion for instance. The drive to outlaw it is generally from theists. Fundamental difference right there. Laws based on their religion.

Stem cell research continued unimpeded in South America, Mexico, Canada, Europe, and Asia, and while restricted in the United States, continued here as well with government funding for existing embryonic stem cell lines and non-embryonic stem cells, and private funding for everything. The fact that the medical advance you hope for has not happened yet may or may not be due to theist interference. There is really no way to know, since there is no way to know at this point whether the hypothetical advance is even possible.

It has happened, it just got held up for no reason other than people pining for theocratic government tried to force their religion onto others.

Which is why you're not being reasonable.

No, actually, like many theists you feel I am being unreasonable because I won't accept the lies and mistakes of the author of the article.

Can you find any articles written by theists telling other theists to stop being so militant against atheists? I haven't been able to. All I find are theists and religious apologists writing articles telling atheists to stop being so uppity when asking for their due in society.

I side with Dawkins, Hitchens, Sagan, etc., because they are the only ones who make progress. People like the author of that ridiculous article are living in a dream world.
 
I'd say yes and yes -- as long as the context was appropriate. Or, if you are as skilled as Mr. Hitchens, then go for it in any context you like.
"As long as the context was appropriate" teaching critical thinking to kids is "Pushing one's belief" and, "makes you a jerk"?

I need a clarification here. Is that what you meant?
 
Since evolution is not a belief, no.

Teaching that critical thinking will make you not a theist because all theists are wrong? Yes.

(Incidently, re another thing:

Bokonon isn't a theist. Also, agnosticism is not weak atheism.

And finally,

The drive to outlaw it is generally from theists. Fundamental difference right there. Laws based on their religion.

Hasty Generalization. Not all theists are the same. It's like saying that generally, the push for abortion to be illegal comes from mostly white men. It kinda does. But that doesn't *say* anything.)
 

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