I hope you are genuinely interested...frisian said:Inability to rationally reconcile apocalyptic prophecy? I seemed to have missed that debate there, all knowing one. Could you enlighten me with a case o' cerebral priapism, so I too can engage in this intellectual fellatio?
Revelation is not a prophecy, its not a foretelling of End of Days. It is a book of powerful symbolism written in 81 AD to persuade the Christians of Asia Minor to resist conversion (even staking their lives) to the coming persecution of the Romans.
Now Yahweh will go into much extraneous but necessary detail, brought to you by Sparknotes:
Introduction
The Book of Revelation is strikingly different from the rest of the New Testament. It is populated by winged and wild creatures, locust plagues, and seven-headed beasts. Revelation is filled with obscure and fantastic symbolism, and it teems with mystical references. However, it lacks any real internal structure. Unlike the other New Testament books, which tend to mix narrative with sermon-style preaching, Revelation is essentially a long, uninterrupted record of a mystical vision, offering little interpretation for its intricate symbols. Revelation has been read for thousands of years as a code that, properly interpreted, can reveal the secrets of history and the end of the world. The numbers and symbols in Revelation have been read into any number of traumatic events in ancient and modern history.
Revelation was a product of this time of early growth and confusion, but also of a long Jewish tradition of apocalyptic literature. The Old Testament books of Ezekiel and Zechariah contain long apocalyptic segments. The most famous Old Testament apocalypse, the Book of Daniel, was written circa 165 b.c.. The apocalyptic genre became more popular after 70 a.d., when the apocryphal apocalypses, 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra, were written in response to the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies. There is enough apocalyptic literature that it can be classified as a genre of its own, with its own particular characteristics. Some of these common features are revelations made to a human emissary through a supernatural agency, heavy symbolism, numerology with obscure significance, extravagant imagery, and concern about a cataclysmic day of judgment or the end of the world. Apocalyptic literature tends to take a deterministic view of history—that is, apocalypses are generally driven by the belief that history inexorably follows a set path ordained by God. All of these characteristics of the apocalyptic genre are present in Revelation.
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Analysis
The Book of Revelation was probably written sometime between 81 and 89 a.d. by a man named John, in and around the cities in Asia Minor. Some scholars contend that Revelation indeed talks about the future, but it primarily seeks to understand the present, a time that was almost certainly one of extreme stress for Christians. Revelation itself indicates that John understood that a persecution of Christians living in western Asia Minor was imminent, and the persecution would come from the Romans, who would make demands for emperor worship that the Christians would have to resist. John’s revelation is an attempt to persuade the small churches to turn away from imperial cult worship and toward the true God, who was in charge of history and who will triumph in the end. Revelation seeks to accommodate the contradiction of the triumph of God in history with the continued oppressive rule of the Romans.
Revelation’s heavy use of imagination and provocative symbolism is central to its rhetorical power. Revelation turns to poetics and aesthetics to depict the imperial city of Rome as a beast, stating that “its feet were like a bear’s and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth” (13:2). The beast has ten horns and seven heads and carries on its back “Babylon the great, mother of whores, and of the earth’s abominations” (17:5). Babylon, who is “drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus,” represents the Roman Empire (17:6). She is eventually judged by the more powerful God, who causes her fall in Revelation’s climax: “He has judged the great whore who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants . . . Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!” (14:8, 19:2).
John’s potent imagery is not only a “call for the endurance and faith of the saints” (13:10), but it also tries to move the audience to a decision to turn away from the beast “so that you do not take part in her sins” (18:4), and instead to turn toward the God of justice who “will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (21:4). Revelation persuades Christians to stake their lives on that decision. In Babylon, everything is for sale. John does not hedge about the immorality of such disparities between the rich and the poor. When Babylon is destroyed, neither God, Christ, the saints, the apostles, nor the prophets mourn. Those who are upset are “the merchants of the earth” (18:11) and “all whose trade is on the sea” (18:17). In addition, “the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail” (18:9).
Now, a bit more extraneous detail written by myself:
The Book of Revelation is a heretical book (unless 7-headed dragons, numerology/witchcraft, a grand bastardization of Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit isnt heretical in your book). How on earth Revelation made it past the Canon when all these other books of the bible didnt is a mystery to me.
The Book of Revelation details quite a bit on the Fall of Babylon, the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire did eventually fall, but the fantastic irony is that it fell after converting to Christianity.
In terms of rationally reconciling apocalyptic prophecy, its simply impossible. I'm sure you couldnt fault a gal like sparklecat for merely thinking.
There is an awful lot of talk about prophecies in the bible. I guess I'm just a little more critical than others, but I am rather unimpressed. There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled.
- Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
- Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.
- Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it hasn't, just say that, according to prophecy, it will.
- Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they haven't. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.
There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.
The New Testament of the Bible is shorter than its predecessor, covers only a few decades of history (as oppose to the Old Testament which covers the Dawn of Time to about 400 BC). The books of the New Testament were written in first- or second-century Palestine, a region that at the time was under the rule of the Roman Empire. Many of the stories are based on the rituals and beliefs of Judaism, as Jesus Christ and his disciples were all Jews. As a result, both Greco-Roman culture and Judaic traditions dominate the political, social, and economic scene of the New Testament. Like the Old Testament, the New Testament consists of a series of stories which are allegorical in nature, the stories adequately reflect the problems and persecutions of the time periods they were written. Some biblical scholars interpret it as a work of literature that uses beautiful poetry to describe religious myths. Others study its ethical and philosophical ideas, as its stories of the faithful attempt to instill certain values and outline an appropriate way to live.
Now, I think I've made it clear that there is no way to rationally reconcile this apocalyptic prophecy as a literal foretelling of events to come.
