Banned from RaptureReady...

frisian said:
Inability to rationally reconcile apocalyptic prophecy? I seemed to have missed that debate there, all knowing one. Could you enlighten me with a case o' cerebral priapism, so I too can engage in this intellectual fellatio?
I hope you are genuinely interested...

Revelation is not a prophecy, its not a foretelling of End of Days. It is a book of powerful symbolism written in 81 AD to persuade the Christians of Asia Minor to resist conversion (even staking their lives) to the coming persecution of the Romans.

Now Yahweh will go into much extraneous but necessary detail, brought to you by Sparknotes:
Introduction

The Book of Revelation is strikingly different from the rest of the New Testament. It is populated by winged and wild creatures, locust plagues, and seven-headed beasts. Revelation is filled with obscure and fantastic symbolism, and it teems with mystical references. However, it lacks any real internal structure. Unlike the other New Testament books, which tend to mix narrative with sermon-style preaching, Revelation is essentially a long, uninterrupted record of a mystical vision, offering little interpretation for its intricate symbols. Revelation has been read for thousands of years as a code that, properly interpreted, can reveal the secrets of history and the end of the world. The numbers and symbols in Revelation have been read into any number of traumatic events in ancient and modern history.

Revelation was a product of this time of early growth and confusion, but also of a long Jewish tradition of apocalyptic literature. The Old Testament books of Ezekiel and Zechariah contain long apocalyptic segments. The most famous Old Testament apocalypse, the Book of Daniel, was written circa 165 b.c.. The apocalyptic genre became more popular after 70 a.d., when the apocryphal apocalypses, 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra, were written in response to the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies. There is enough apocalyptic literature that it can be classified as a genre of its own, with its own particular characteristics. Some of these common features are revelations made to a human emissary through a supernatural agency, heavy symbolism, numerology with obscure significance, extravagant imagery, and concern about a cataclysmic day of judgment or the end of the world. Apocalyptic literature tends to take a deterministic view of history—that is, apocalypses are generally driven by the belief that history inexorably follows a set path ordained by God. All of these characteristics of the apocalyptic genre are present in Revelation.

...

Analysis

The Book of Revelation was probably written sometime between 81 and 89 a.d. by a man named John, in and around the cities in Asia Minor. Some scholars contend that Revelation indeed talks about the future, but it primarily seeks to understand the present, a time that was almost certainly one of extreme stress for Christians. Revelation itself indicates that John understood that a persecution of Christians living in western Asia Minor was imminent, and the persecution would come from the Romans, who would make demands for emperor worship that the Christians would have to resist. John’s revelation is an attempt to persuade the small churches to turn away from imperial cult worship and toward the true God, who was in charge of history and who will triumph in the end. Revelation seeks to accommodate the contradiction of the triumph of God in history with the continued oppressive rule of the Romans.

Revelation’s heavy use of imagination and provocative symbolism is central to its rhetorical power. Revelation turns to poetics and aesthetics to depict the imperial city of Rome as a beast, stating that “its feet were like a bear’s and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth” (13:2). The beast has ten horns and seven heads and carries on its back “Babylon the great, mother of whores, and of the earth’s abominations” (17:5). Babylon, who is “drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus,” represents the Roman Empire (17:6). She is eventually judged by the more powerful God, who causes her fall in Revelation’s climax: “He has judged the great whore who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants . . . Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!” (14:8, 19:2).

John’s potent imagery is not only a “call for the endurance and faith of the saints” (13:10), but it also tries to move the audience to a decision to turn away from the beast “so that you do not take part in her sins” (18:4), and instead to turn toward the God of justice who “will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (21:4). Revelation persuades Christians to stake their lives on that decision. In Babylon, everything is for sale. John does not hedge about the immorality of such disparities between the rich and the poor. When Babylon is destroyed, neither God, Christ, the saints, the apostles, nor the prophets mourn. Those who are upset are “the merchants of the earth” (18:11) and “all whose trade is on the sea” (18:17). In addition, “the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail” (18:9).


Now, a bit more extraneous detail written by myself:

The Book of Revelation is a heretical book (unless 7-headed dragons, numerology/witchcraft, a grand bastardization of Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit isnt heretical in your book). How on earth Revelation made it past the Canon when all these other books of the bible didnt is a mystery to me.

The Book of Revelation details quite a bit on the Fall of Babylon, the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire did eventually fall, but the fantastic irony is that it fell after converting to Christianity.

In terms of rationally reconciling apocalyptic prophecy, its simply impossible. I'm sure you couldnt fault a gal like sparklecat for merely thinking.

There is an awful lot of talk about prophecies in the bible. I guess I'm just a little more critical than others, but I am rather unimpressed. There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled.
  • Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
  • Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.
  • Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it hasn't, just say that, according to prophecy, it will.
  • Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they haven't. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.

There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.


The New Testament of the Bible is shorter than its predecessor, covers only a few decades of history (as oppose to the Old Testament which covers the Dawn of Time to about 400 BC). The books of the New Testament were written in first- or second-century Palestine, a region that at the time was under the rule of the Roman Empire. Many of the stories are based on the rituals and beliefs of Judaism, as Jesus Christ and his disciples were all Jews. As a result, both Greco-Roman culture and Judaic traditions dominate the political, social, and economic scene of the New Testament. Like the Old Testament, the New Testament consists of a series of stories which are allegorical in nature, the stories adequately reflect the problems and persecutions of the time periods they were written. Some biblical scholars interpret it as a work of literature that uses beautiful poetry to describe religious myths. Others study its ethical and philosophical ideas, as its stories of the faithful attempt to instill certain values and outline an appropriate way to live.


Now, I think I've made it clear that there is no way to rationally reconcile this apocalyptic prophecy as a literal foretelling of events to come.
 
Sorry you went through all that work on your own. ;)

I thought you had implied that Sparklecat was accosted for not believing in such, once again I asserted that this topic had not arose specifically.

I was hoping you were linking me to a thread at RR, in which this happened.

Oh well.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banned from RaptureReady...

frisian said:


I did answer it.

You know what?

Overwhelmed by what? I don't recall being overwhelmed by anything.

Really, whom is not skeptical here and accepted? Or feels so?

No you didn't, you merely claimed it had been attempted, not refuted. That's not a response.

That you thought it unfair.

Overwhelmed by the pressure to conform?

You tell me. I was certainly accepted by all my atheist friends as a Christian, while not accepted by all my Christian "friends" as an atheist.
 
the_ignored said:
Hey! Get a load of this thread Sparklecat has fallen... from RR!
I wont always agree with him, but I really appreciated this post from Frisian from the thread:
Gary:
<blockquote>As I understand it, she was banned because she started blasphiming God in some of her final posts. If you read carefully through apologetics, she had a few warnings, and it was generally considered that she was just posting to get attention. In the thread she was banned on, Becky made a couple of references to the fact that she was probably never TRULY saved to begin with, and backed it up with some earlier posts where Justine had said something to the effect that "she would give this Christian thing a shot and see what happened." Back in late January Justine made announcement that she was "now an agnostic or weak atheist" and spent the last month tying up an awful lot of people's time in circular discussions. a lot of apolo folks started calling the forum "The Sparklecat Show". It was pretty annoying.</blockquote>

Frisian:
1. Please explain how she acted in such a manner that was different than any unbeliever has on this site. Nothing changed in her final posts.
2. I am in Apologetics daily, please cite where all these warnings were.
3. Posting to merely get attention? I would think that anyone posting anywhere on this forum is doing so to get a response or express something.
4. Funny how we are called to determine whether someone was ever truly saved?
5. Uh, no one needed to encounter her in these discussions, most of them were spent making accusations against her, in fact that has how it has been for some 2-3 months now.
6. Really? A lot of apolo folks started calling the forum what? They must have done so in private, because it wasn't in public.


It must be nice to assassinate someone's character when they can no longer respond.
Careful now, Frisian, they might ban you also :p
 
Its good there are some decent folks who care very kindly.

A few things I liked from that thread:

Bondservant:
This is crossing the line into gossip and slander...better to quit talking about her and pray for her on your own. Sorry but I feel all that needed to be said in the first place was that she was struggling and needed prayer. Period.

Jiggy37:
Moreover, she's been banned as of today. It's a shame... I told her on November 7th that she was a blessing to the entire board and I absolutely meant it (as did carmen, Joshua's Gen, and chris_h; I would include Martinm, but then again, I'm not sure why he agreed considering that he doesn't believe in "blessings")--I thought she was a very strong Christian and one of the RR members who I could relate to more easily... I will certainly pray for her.
 
ah, well, maybe I'll break down and say, "Sparkle love, no matter what you decide, your decision is yours and I will love you no less for it." No strings attached.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banned from RaptureReady...

Originally posted by sparklecat

Point out where I've been impolite?

frisian said:
I don't believe I posited such.

before:
frisian
When did you arrive at the conclusion that your mannerisms and protocol were courteous?

also:
While I find it unfair, it is merely their opinion. What a splendid conclusion you have jumped to, that their faith is really lacking and they are frightened. Is this the eye for eye season?
assumption and attack is courteous how?

You don't see the back slapping and intellectual fellatio that occurs here as well? Or is this just preferable?
JREF board is just as likely to smack a poster upside the head for being incorrect, than to slap someone on the back. Or you have failed to notice this in your self-inquisitorial role of false dilemma, ad hom, straw man, no true scottsman, and accusations of fallacy by population?
Or you interested are does Frisian just like to heckle? RaptureReady is welcome to JREF. Can one say the same of RaptureReady?
 
Just wanted to add: I must say, Sparkle has never been a disappointment. From Christian to soft aetheist to goddess of her own cult... I can only say.... NONE of you are worthy enough to date my daughter!
 
frisian said:
Play your Mormon game, what would you like to posit?
Why are Mormons ridiculed for relying on faith to accept fanciful notions like the golden plates and god talking to Joseph Smith but Christians accept equally fanciful notions like walking on water, people living in the belly of a fish, the flood, water into wine, etc., etc.

Mormons are criticized for the many contradictions of their beliefs and dogmas by people who have just as many if not more contradictions in their beliefs and dogmas.

The virgin birth, resurrection, people talking to god, walking on water, blind people being able to see, lame men walking, dead people rising, etc., etc.. Are all unprovable (not to mention downright silly). It is impossible to come to an intellectual belief in any of these events because objectively they all violate the laws of physics.

Yet people who believe in these events based only on faith laugh at the notion that Joseph Smith talked to angels and used magic stones to interpret a book he found hidden in New York.

Christians have explanations and "convenient" answers for the many discrepancies and silly stories found thoughout the bible but then so do Mormons have for the silly stories and discrepancies found throughout the book of Mormon.

Question: Why is it ok for Christians to accept silly mythology based on faith but not ok for Mormons to accept silly mythology based on faith?
 
RandFan said:
The virgin birth, resurrection, people talking to god, walking on water, blind people being able to see, lame men walking, dead people rising, etc., etc.. Are all unprovable (not to mention downright silly). It is impossible to come to an intellectual belief in any of these events because objectively they all violate the laws of physics.
Actually, they do not violate the laws of physics. Admittedly, it seems unlikely that Jesus had access to some really rockin' nanotechnology... but all of those events are technically possible.
 
Wrath said:
Actually, they do not violate the laws of physics. Admittedly, it seems unlikely that Jesus had access to some really rockin' nanotechnology... but all of those events are technically possible
Resurrection? Wow, that would take a serious swarm of nanobots all working in concert to reanimate a person's cells, especially after three days of degridation.

Swarm of nanobots . . . Wrath of the Swarm . . . Hmm.

~~ Paul
 
Wrath of the Swarm said:
Actually, they do not violate the laws of physics. Admittedly, it seems unlikely that Jesus had access to some really rockin' nanotechnology... but all of those events are technically possible.
My argument assumes that believers rely on metaphysical explanations. I purposely left out parting of the red sea, locusts, etc. because those events are more probable than the ones I listed but caused by natural events rather than metaphysical ones. In vitro fertilization, artificial vision systems and prosthetics could render some of my examples moot (assuming god used this or similar technology) but I don't think any believers claim god did in use any such technology. That being said, how does one walk on water (as described in the bible) or bring someone back to life 3 days after they have died without breaking the laws of physics.

Assuming god did uses some kind of technology, how and what technology? Anti gravity belt? Jet pack? There is no theory to date to keep human cells from degenerating above freezing and breaking below. So I don't think it is even theoretical to say that with technology it is possible to raise the dead.

The point is that believers don't try and make such arguments, all things are possible to god and god does not need man's technology to perform his miracles. "Man's wisdom is foolishness to god".

"If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

I stand by all of my examples.
 
RandFan said:
That being said, how does one walk on water (as described in the bible) or bring someone back to life 3 days after they have died without breaking the laws of physics.
Frankly, I don't think you have a sufficiently solid grasp of physics to me to explain this to you in a way you can understand. You seem to revert to repeating "Breaks the laws of physics! Breaks the laws of physics!" whenever such events are brought up.

The resurrection would be fairly simple. While we don't know whether a sufficiently advanced understanding of neurobiology would permit the brain to be reassembled after three days, we don't know enough to rule out the possibility. If we assume that intervention was begun immediately after death, there's no problem.

Walking on water is harder to manage, but there are enough ways to implement this that I don't see it as a problem. If nothing else, it could always be a sophisticated illusion.
 
Wrath of the Swarm said:
Walking on water is harder to manage, but there are enough ways to implement this that I don't see it as a problem. If nothing else, it could always be a sophisticated illusion.
Walking on water. Really VERY easy to do, although I suspect it would have been difficult to write THIS up in the New Testament...

walking-on-ice3.jpg
 
Wrath of the Swarm said:
Frankly, I don't think you have a sufficiently solid grasp of physics to me to explain this to you in a way you can understand.
Well that's nice. I note that you make a number of presumptions and fail to understand my point due to your arrogance.

The fatal flaw to your argument is that you must change documented and accepted accounts to make that which WAS impossible to possible.

You seem to revert to repeating "Breaks the laws of physics! Breaks the laws of physics!" whenever such events are brought up.
Oh really, well I'm not so stupid to know that this is not true. A simple search of the entire forum yielded four (4) posts that I, RandFan, used the word "physics" in.

The resurrection would be fairly simple. While we don't know whether a sufficiently advanced understanding of neurobiology would permit the brain to be reassembled after three days, we don't know enough to rule out the possibility. If we assume that intervention was begun immediately after death, there's no problem.
Ah, but it is demonstrable that there was no intervention immediately after death. In fact Christ intentionally delayed his visit to Bethany for this very purpose.

John 11
Verse: 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

Verse: 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Verse: 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
Now you can argue that someone else intervened, hell, you can argue aliens with advance technology were behind the whole thing, but then the story no longer "fits" the believers account. And my contention is that it is the account that is physically imposible and not the concept alone. I am not arguing in a vacuum.

May I outline your argument?

Wrath's argument

Proposition:It was physically possible to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

premise: If Lazarus had received immediate intervention it would have made it possible to bring him back to life.

premise: If Christ had an advanced technology it is theoretically possible he could have brought Lazarus back from the dead.

conclusion: Assuming that Christ immediately intervened and possessed advanced technology then it is theoretically possible that Lazarus was raised from the dead.
This hypothetical is valid.

RandFan's argument

Proposition: The story as told in the bible and believed by Christians is physically impossible.

Premise: The story as documented and believed by Christians was that Christ purposely delayed his trip to Lazarus for the sole purpose of ensuring that there was no immediate intervention thus proving that Lazarus was raised from the dead by the metaphysical power of God.

premise: The story as documented and believed by Christians is that there was no advanced technology used. The event relies on metaphysical powers of God to "prove" that God is all powerful. It is the very purpose of the story.

Conclusion The story as documented and believed is theoretically impossible.

Your hypothetical is valid but since the premises are invalid the argument is invalid.

Walking on water is harder to manage, but there are enough ways to implement this that I don't see it as a problem. If nothing else, it could always be a sophisticated illusion.
"Illusion", are you joking. Yeah, that answers it. Come on, we are talking about the beliefs of Christians and not possible explanations to the mythology.

You presume that I am suggesting that bringing people back to life is impossible given the laws of physics. If you had taken the time to read my posts you would know that this is not the case. To bring someone back to life through metaphysical means defies the laws of physics. To walk on water by faith alone is physically impossible.

Ergo,

A.) Christ was a liar when he attributed his feat to faith and possessed some amazing technology that we as yet don't posses.

or

B.) The story, as told in the bible, is physically impossible.

In the end your argument is fallacious, a straw man since I don't claim that the events themselves are physically impossible but merely as they are "believed" they are physically impossible.

Questions:
  • Do you believe that it is possible to walk on water with faith alone?
  • Do you believe that it is possible to bring people back to life using metaphysical means?
  • Do you understand the definition of "metaphysical"?
  • Are metaphysical and physical theoretically compatible?
 

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