Australia's Gun Problem

[NWO Sentryman]

Nup, never happened.

Please explain about how Australia had an astronomical crime rate compared to the rest of the developed world thanks to years of subjugating and segregating a large ethnic minority that was imported for the sole purpose of slave labour.

 

[nvidiot]

Yeah Australia missed that boat. We just wiped out a substantial proportion of the natives instead of importing slave labour en mass. Another topic methinks.

The definition of "lawful" regarding reasons to own a firearm or even multiple firearms is merely different here in Australia. Aside from the semi automatic class of weapons, and depending on the state laws, your collection ranb might actually be achievable in substantial measure. I don't know exactly what kind of firearms you collect of course, but some states collections is considered a lawful reason for owning a firearm.

Handguns not so much. They're fairly heavily restricted in Aus. Even long before port Arthur a close family friend had a 357 revolver of some description, and it was very carefully guarded as an illegally possessed weapon and never discussed outside that close group. Illegal weapons exist, but aren't often used in criminal activity, certainly not to the extend they seem to be in the US.

Self defence itself is not considered a legitimate use except in stringent circumstances such as police, bodyguards, armoured trucks etc. I saw a police detective recently and whilst he was essentially in plain clothes, the SA pistol at his hip was glaringly obvious and stark to my eyes as we just don't come across them in everyday life or expect to see them often up close.

It's culture. The overall opinion on firearm ownership here appears to be quite different to you guys.

 

[Ranb]

I collect and use bolt action, single shot, semi-auto, muzzle loading and pump action. The only action I lack is machine gun. My calibers are from 17 to 50 caliber; 73 caliber if you include a rifled 12 gauge. I also make short barreled rifles (SBR) and silencers. The most recent short barreled shotgun bill failed in the legislature; SBR and silencers were recently made civilian legal again. SBR's were banned in 1994 just because they could according to the bill author.

I shoot mostly air rifle and 22lr target now.

Ranb

 

[welshdean]

<snipped>

Same here. My 50 plus gun collection does not make me feel safer.

<snipped>

Ranb

Maybe you should try Zyprexa.

 

[BStrong]

Yeah Australia missed that boat. We just wiped out a substantial proportion of the natives instead of importing slave labour en mass. Another topic methinks.

The definition of "lawful" regarding reasons to own a firearm or even multiple firearms is merely different here in Australia. Aside from the semi automatic class of weapons, and depending on the state laws, your collection ranb might actually be achievable in substantial measure. I don't know exactly what kind of firearms you collect of course, but some states collections is considered a lawful reason for owning a firearm.

Handguns not so much. They're fairly heavily restricted in Aus. Even long before port Arthur a close family friend had a 357 revolver of some description, and it was very carefully guarded as an illegally possessed weapon and never discussed outside that close group. Illegal weapons exist, but aren't often used in criminal activity, certainly not to the extend they seem to be in the US.

Self defence itself is not considered a legitimate use except in stringent circumstances such as police, bodyguards, armoured trucks etc. I saw a police detective recently and whilst he was essentially in plain clothes, the SA pistol at his hip was glaringly obvious and stark to my eyes as we just don't come across them in everyday life or expect to see them often up close.

It's culture. The overall opinion on firearm ownership here appears to be quite different to you guys.

So celebrities, politicians and money rate armed protection, but Joe citizen, not so much.

 

[welshdean]

Thanks for the link. Appears that the word lawful is very restricted. In the USA if I have to take time off from my shooting activities due to injury, illness or work, I can simply resume my hobby when able. I don't have to convince the police that I'm worthy of keeping the license.

Ranb

ETA; I thought they spelled license wrong. I guess not. http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-licence-and-license/

There's your problem.

 

[Ranb]

Maybe you should try Zyprexa.

You're not really suggesting I need drugs to convince myself that my gun collection should make me feel safer? I call your argument/suggestion stupid.

There's your problem.

I'd rather live in a country where the authorities need to prove a person is not worthy prior to depriving them of their rights. I'm not the one with the problem.

Ranb

 

[3point14]

You're not really suggesting I need drugs to convince myself that my gun collection should make me feel safer? I call your argument/suggestion stupid.


I'd rather live in a country where the authorities need to prove a person is not worthy prior to depriving them of their rights. I'm not the one with the problem.

Ranb

Again, this is an Amero-centric view founded on the second amenment's provision of a 'right' to bear arms.

In countries witout a second amenment type piece of legislation, no-one believes they have a right to own a firearm. In exactly the same way as for a US driving license, the privilidge (note, not right as no second amendment) has to be earned.

Can you not see how things are different for people who are not where you are? The only reason you believe access to firearms is a right is because you've grown up with that. Those who live elsewhere haven't and so have a different cultural perspective. Your continuing efforts to paint your cultural perspective as the only valid one are puzzling.

Can I ask, in your opinion, which countries, if any, other than the USA, have the correct postion on ownership of firearms?

 

[MG1962]

You're not really suggesting I need drugs to convince myself that my gun collection should make me feel safer? I call your argument/suggestion stupid.


I'd rather live in a country where the authorities need to prove a person is not worthy prior to depriving them of their rights. I'm not the one with the problem.

Ranb

But each society and culture has the right to decide what rights it wants to have as cornerstones of that society or culture. In the US the second amendment and gun ownership are seen as one such cornerstone.

In Australia we never did, hence why we have no laws that enshrine gun ownership as any type of special right. That does not mean that Australia is wrong and the US is right, or visa versa. Just simply our respective societies have different aims and goals for themselves.

Australia like any other true democracy has the ability to change laws. If over time Australian's saw gun ownership in a similar fashion to the US, we would simply vote the people in who would affect that change.

 

[Ranb]

Again, this is an Amero-centric view founded on the second amenment's provision of a 'right' to bear arms.

Call it what you want, it is usually nicer to require the state prove you can't so something than ask for permission. I was referring to any rights.

In countries witout a second amenment type piece of legislation, no-one believes they have a right to own a firearm. In exactly the same way as for a US driving license, the privilidge (note, not right as no second amendment) has to be earned.

Good for them then. I've no problem with gun laws in other countries, not sure why other people in foreign lands have problems with the laws in the USA while surfing the internet from home.

Can you not see how things are different for people who are not where you are?

I can see this.

The only reason you believe access to firearms is a right is because you've grown up with that.

Right again.

Those who live elsewhere haven't and so have a different cultural perspective. Your continuing efforts to paint your cultural perspective as the only valid one are puzzling.

Where did I say mine was the only valid one?

Can I ask, in your opinion, which countries, if any, other than the USA, have the correct postion on ownership of firearms?

I don't know enough about the laws in other countries to state if they have the correct position. Don't really care either.

Ranb

 

[MG1962]

Good for them then. I've no problem with gun laws in other countries, not sure why other people in foreign lands have problems with the laws in the USA while surfing the internet from home.

Because all of us, no matter our origins are a product of the society and culture we grew up in. And often those origins put us in a place where what might seem common sense to one, is outlandish to another.

It is sort of what makes the world so interesting

 

[Ranb]

In Australia we never did, hence why we have no laws that enshrine gun ownership as any type of special right. That does not mean that Australia is wrong and the US is right, or visa versa. Just simply our respective societies have different aims and goals for themselves.

Everything in your post is something I agree with. I don't recall ever saying a country was wrong to control guns in any certain way. I do believe I've stated that their way (in some cases) sucks and I wouldn't want to be a part of it, but that is not the same as saying it is wrong.

In other words it sucks for example that I have to obtain a driver's license or a building permit, but that is the way things are and I have to live with it until a better way is found.

It is sort of what makes the world so interesting

The world is a very interesting place and I've enjoyed traveling it these last few decades. I love the differences and I don't mind that other countries are "controlling" their populations in a different manner. 99% of my bitching about gun laws is about the stupid ones in the USA, not elsewhere.

Ranb

 

[MG1962]

Everything in your post is something I agree with. I don't recall ever saying a country was wrong to control guns in any certain way. I do believe I've stated that their way (in some cases) sucks and I wouldn't want to be a part of it, but that is not the same as saying it is wrong.

In other words it sucks for example that I have to obtain a driver's license or a building permit, but that is the way things are and I have to live with it until a better way is found.

Ranb

I was using your post to highlight the sub discussion about non Americans commenting on US gun laws and visa versa. In my time living in the US I have seen a number of newspaper articles absolutely flaying Australia's gun laws, and painting Australians as some sort of spineless society happy to allow the government to tread all over us.

The Australian constitution does protect our rights, and does it in a very robust way. The thing is it uses a very different approach than those promises contained in the US constitution, and this can often lead to miss understandings

 

[Ranb]

I was using your post to highlight the sub discussion about non Americans commenting on US gun laws and visa versa. In my time living in the US I have seen a number of newspaper articles absolutely flaying Australia's gun laws, and painting Australians as some sort of spineless society happy to allow the government to tread all over us.

In that case you are correct. It doesn't really help anyone. America is diverse/different enough that we need our own solutions instead of someone else's. I really don't like hearing people bring up the "we should do it because they do it in that country" argument; no matter what side of the gun debate they are on.

A while back at a committee hearing on gun bills a person suggested an AWB was right because some statistics (I don't remember what) in Switzerland supported her argument. That one got a snicker from me which spread across the room.

Ranb

 

[welshdean]

You're not really suggesting I need drugs to convince myself that my gun collection should make me feel safer? I call your argument/suggestion stupid.

Not at all, I'm saying that if possessing an arsenal of 50 (50 fer chrissakes) guns doesn't make you feel safe, then <SNIP>.

Edited by jsfisher: 

Rule 12 violation removed.

I'd rather live in a country where the authorities need to prove a person is not worthy prior to depriving them of their rights. I'm not the one with the problem.

Ranb

Again, there's your problem. I have no right to a firearm, nor does the friendly neighbourhood drug baron. So I know the chances of being shot are zero to negligible and he knows that the chances of him getting shot are virtually the same. We all feel safe!
At this point you usually spew out the tired old canard that the UK harbours vicious violent thugs on every street corner, or that a trip to choir practice at the village hall will net me a broken nose or such. Even if that were the case, I don't believe a punch on the nose warrants half a dozen 'hollow points' to the chest.

If you ain't got one, you can't use one.

BTW, your favourite comeback that "guns don't kill people..." is complete bollocks. If I threw a round at your face, you'll come away with a bruise/minor cut(s), tops. If I added a gun into the mix, I'd expect a rather different and unpleasant outcome.

 

[Ranb]

Not at all, I'm saying that if possessing an arsenal of 50 (50 fer chrissakes) guns doesn't make you feel safe, then <SNIP>.

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content removed.

When did I ever say I had a gun collection to make me feel safe? This is a skeptics forum. Even though it is fashionable on this forum to make any claim about guns and expect people to be stupid enough to believe it, wouldn't it help your argument to at least show a bit of evidence to support your argument?

I don't need a gun to feel safe. The last time a gun was pointed at me I ran towards the problem; and I was unarmed.

Again, there's your problem. I have no right to a firearm, nor does the friendly neighbourhood drug baron. So I know the chances of being shot are zero to negligible and he knows that the chances of him getting shot are virtually the same. We all feel safe!

So a ban actually works where you live? No one has illegal guns? Based on my nearly 52 years of life, I'd have to say that my chances of being shot are zero to negligible also.

At this point you usually spew out ....

You said "you" as in Ranb; any evidence to support that accusation?

BTW, your favourite comeback that "guns don't kill people..." is complete bollocks. If I threw a round at your face, you'll come away with a bruise/mior cut(s), tops. If I added a gun into the mix, I'd expect a rather different and unpleasant outcome.

Again, have any evidence this is my favorite position or that I ever used it?

Ranb

 

[arthwollipot]

Good for them then. I've no problem with gun laws in other countries, not sure why other people in foreign lands have problems with the laws in the USA while surfing the internet from home.

Because America exports its culture en masse to the entire English-speaking world! And most of the rest of it as well.

 

[Giz]

Because America exports its culture en masse to the entire English-speaking world! And most of the rest of it as well.

You could move to North Korea? I understand they allow neither American culture or civilian guy ownership.

 

[Noztradamus]

You could move to North Korea? I understand they allow neither American culture or civilian guy ownership.

But.. at the top of the page NWO said the problem with America's culture was the history of civilian guy ownership.

 

[Ranb]

Because America exports its culture en masse to the entire English-speaking world! And most of the rest of it as well.

That would be because the rest of the world is so willing to import it?

Ranb